Author Topic: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns  (Read 18525 times)

twombo

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2007, 05:14:37 PM »
Well put Jack!

One shouldn't under estimate the "opposition". At the same time, the powers that be, derive a lot of their "power" from citizenry who overestimate the effectiveness of government. As long as you let them, they willl run your ragged. Intimidation tactics die pretty quickly under "put up or shutup" when the intimidator is try to blow smoke up yer ass!!

All Hail, Wallace and Gromit!!

Hip Hip Hoorah! Hip Hip Hoorah! Hip Hip Hoorah!

Mike

« Last Edit: January 09, 2007, 05:27:32 PM by twombo »

dkwflight

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2007, 11:20:10 PM »
Hi
If the EPA were really going after individuals They wouldn't have to go far from there driveway. I am on the road everyday and I usualy see at least a dozen trucks and cars that are trailing a bunch of black or grey smoke. I think you do too.

Dennis.
28/2 powersolutions JKSon -20k gen head
Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

Doug

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2007, 11:32:09 PM »

A PBX.

I know that will work, the PBX works well enough on its own if you can get it up to proper temp...



Achronyms, argggg.

Simplest way to get a PBX warm would be to have everyone with an extension to call the operator at the same time.  I used to work for the phone company inside plant and I know what a PBX is since I used to cable them.  What do YOU think a PBX is?  I`m fairly certain  you`re not talking about the Prick that Broke the Xerox.

Sorry, its a very comon modle of catalyst use on industrial diesel engines ranging from 5 hp and up.....

"Its faster to say PBX than Diesel catalytic converter" or " exhaust scrubber".

"The BRT"

A very important boss where I work askjd whats wrong with said big expensive machine....
The opperator said the BRT is broken.
The next mornign he inquired about the Status and repairs to the BRT and everyone looked at him stupid.
The BRT is a "big round thing"

mjn

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2007, 01:24:48 AM »
Come to think of it, I've never seen any EPA guys around any NASCAR track I've been to....or tractor pull, or brush fire, or garbage dump.....only in offices and folks imagination.

CFR Title 40 Volume 30, Sec. 1068.235 States:
Quote
(a) New engines you produce that are used solely for competition are
generally excluded from emission standards. See the standard-setting
parts for specific provisions where applicable.
    (b) If you modify an engine after it has been placed into service in
the United States so it will be used solely for competition, it is
exempt without request. This exemption applies only to the prohibition
in Sec. 1068.101(b)(1) and is valid only as long as the engine is used
solely for competition.

Which is why we need to start the NHRLA (National Hot Rod Listeroid Association) to go along with the "Church of Lister" and the "Listeroid Institute of Technology".

With out a doubt, Hotater is leading the field in the "Endurance" class.  I'm hoping to be able to get 0 to 60 hertz in under 1 minute.  :D
Changfa 195 7.5 kw ST.  WVO conversion http://martin.nile.googlepages.com/
Metro 6/1 DI Listeroid. Pumping water for fire control.
1933 Stover CT-1 hit and miss
1936 Farmall F-12 -- unrestored, still used to mow the field

Doug

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2007, 01:34:02 AM »
I wonder....

If we attached hour meters and set a rule book governing how an endurance competion would be set...
Place seals on the metering and actualy made a game of this would it be legal?

Doug

mobile_bob

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2007, 02:10:08 AM »
sure looks like there is a way to exploit the loopholes, without rubbing it under the epa's nose to me.

i am continueing to explore the "test" or education route myself, perhaps we can develop some other idea's to
fit the law if not the "intent" of the law.

"intent" is subjective and open to interpretation, so if one was to not appear to be trying to skirt the law egregiously i would think that one could get by for a very long time.

the proof will come when somesort of concept is setup and the first load of engines is ordered that fit within the loophole of the law. but that might be asking for attention and trouble no one needs.

probably better to setup the school, church, or sport and just keep a low profile, then if someday in the future one is confronted he would have all the documentation and a copy of the rule to show compliance with said rule.
i for one would feel far better than just using the engine and have nothing in place to support my useage of the engine when and if that day should arrive that i am asked "what are you doing?" or "what were you thinking" and then have to scurry around and find support for my actions.

sort of like,

"mr bob,, we see you havent had your car emission tested for the last several years" and being able to open the hood and show them an all electric conversion that has been in place for all those years.

i want to be able to use my engine for my offgrid plan, but as a plan i have time to think all facets through before acting upon
it. i just feel it is prudent to try and find support or some form of compliance before i act on the plan. i don't want to build an offgrid place and be told 6 months later to pull out the power source without having a leg to stand on.
even a shakey leg is better than no leg in my opinion

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

danalinscott

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2007, 04:34:42 AM »
I wonder....

If we attached hour meters and set a rule book governing how an endurance competion would be set...
Place seals on the metering and actualy made a game of this would it be legal?

Doug

No ...from looking closesly at the regulations it would not. :(
Dana
danalinscott@yahoo.com

hotater

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2007, 05:46:20 AM »
I feel like a regular anarchist 'monst all ya'll regulation readers, interpretive lawyers,  and worry warts.  :o

 What are they going to do, go after old lawnmowers and leave the refineries and chemical plants to self regulate?   The first time I hear of the EPA going after a home owner with a stationary engine is when there's proof positive they DON'T have enough to do....and I know MY congressional delegation would find that most interesting.

You folks in the north east.....?    oh well.           :-X
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

mobile_bob

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2007, 07:45:30 AM »
Jack:

"I feel like a regular anarchist...... "

thats the funniest thing i have read all night :)

(besides my hands are tired from all the wringing)

gubermint is a funny thing,,,,

and you don't have to go far to see radical differences in enforcement and attitudes

for instance the county in kansas where i own my little spot of heaven (as if it exists in kansas) is getting to be so anal about everything it is beyond belief.
you would think they were NYC, and the whole of the county is something like 13000 people. they gotta control everything. they even have concerns about air quality
and diesel emissions, they bought into this line of horsecrap as if anything is going to effect their air quality when the average windspeed on any given day is 12mph!
couple that with the fact that there isn't a valley deeper than a standard bar ditch anywhere in the county for polution to settle into.

As i have stated they enforce their little laws by passing laws mandating that meter readers, mailmen, linemen, or anyone else that happens across your property to report you for any unusual happenings,,, lets face it listeroids are unusual to alot of folks.

so you see my concerns are valid.

as opposed to the county to the east of my property, it is like the wild west, you do what you are man enough to do, and nobody gives a crap one way or another.
the folks that live in that county are so indidualistic that i think they shoot at the mailman before they see his colors, lineman? oh yes those are the guys that come around
and hook up the lectric after it has been out for a week or three. the county is so poor that it took a texas millionaire to take an interest and plunk down several million just to resurrect the county courthouse (because he like the french archetecture).
in that county, and epa guy would probably be hung at dawn, and no one would think a thing about it, there i think i could heat my house burning old tires and no one would say boo or chit. A listeroid would probably be written off on a 2 cylinder JD that had a miss, :)

funny what just a few miles makes in attitudes

and i have trouble with a certain british dude  8)

maybe i should sell out my 10 acres and buy into the county next door?

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Dail R H

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2007, 01:43:19 AM »
   "The Right Reverend ,Bishop,Elder,Professor Emmetitus,5 Time World Champion  Cross country Endurance Racer" ,all just to own a reliable genset what fun

Doug

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2007, 09:45:42 PM »
We live in very different countries....

I think it has something to do with population density, at some point too many people in one area and the place goes to hell.....

There's guy building an airplane up thr road from me no cares. Guy across the street has a collection of crap that makes you weep, no one says nothing. Contractor on the corner parks too many vehicles on the road, ok the bus drive bitched and he parks soem truck at a shop. The guy next to me set bon fires that shoot flames 12 feet high ( kind of nice on a clear evening actualy ). My brother inlaws music carries from the next block over.

The moral of the story is be polite and no one bother you and everybody does something that anoys people but good neighbors are nice about it. It also helps ot have some tree and space between on a small street in the burbs ....

Doug

hotater

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2007, 11:43:42 PM »
Doug--  I have the population density down pat and I agree.  Be a GOOD neighbor.  I'm considered a good neighbor because the closest one is out of cannon range.....so-far.



I have the 'space' part handled pretty well...I'll have to work on the 'tree' part some, though.    ;D



7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

rpg52

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2007, 01:16:36 AM »
Mobile-bob -
I'm not going to attempt to relate any of this to the epa - I don't know enough about it to do so intelligently, but, as a biologist I think your idea about exhaust mitigation is likely fine.  As long as the engine isn't pouring out lots of oil, the best thing you can do is to feed all those organisms in the soil around your exhaust trench.  The things they need most are moisture and food.  Piling leaves or straw over the trench and irrigating it regularly in dry weather is likely the best thing you could do. 

An example of living organisms mitigating impacts (there are lots of others):  There was a fellow concerned about waste inks from printing.  He experimented and eventually found that the best way to break down the toxic inks was to combine them with horse manure and treat them like compost.  This is likely the best way to treat any organic waste - exhaust gases being just one example, various pesticides being another.  The exception is any waste containing heavy metals or radioactive elements.  That stuff doesn't disappear, no matter what you do to it.  The heavy metals may change form a bit (where I live in an old gold mining area, the elemental mercury left from mining 100 years ago is still here.  Some of it gets converted to methyl-mercury, then absorbed into living organisms, e.g. insects-fish.)  Radioactive stuff just needs enough time to degrade, some elements faster than others.

So, I don't think you would really have to do much to absorb the exhaust gases, if the soil bugs have lots to eat, they can pretty easily digest some carbon, a bit of oil, the CO, CO2 and nitrogen oxides.  The flux of Carbon into and out of soils is so huge that it likely couldn't be detected.  Unfortunately, because it isn't a process that can be patented and sold by some company, no one is doing it, and certainly there is no $ and therefore no incentive to do the testing to see how well it would work.  I personally believe there are likely lots of instances where bio-remediation (the "official" name for this process) would do a lot of good.  So, the likelyhood of the epa approving such a process is slim IMHO.  Doesn't mean that it wouldn't work, just that there isn't any incentive to design it.  Easier for the epa to just ban an engine than to design solutions.  Nothing particularly devious here, relying on living organisms depends on someone caring enough to maintain such a system over the long term.  The other side is that I personally am grateful to the epa that industry can no longer legally dump into "my" air and water.  It seems to me the biggest problem we have is that too many people too close together in total can create a mess.  Don't touch my Listeroid though!!   ;D 
Ray
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

mobile_bob

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2007, 01:57:45 AM »
rpg52:

you made some interesting points

1. the fact there is no money in it, so no one is going to spend a dime to research it is valid, but for the experimenter or would be researcher it would seem
a noble project. far better than simply shooting the exhaust out the roof. i am not sure however how one could prove the system is working or not as i am relatively
certain there is no test equipment that would register the exhaust products percolating up through a trench system. so in this regard i would not invite and inspection from the epa.

2. luckily our engines don't spew any real amounts of radioactive elements or heavy metals, so that should not be a concern. the remediation as you call it of the
exhaust gasses could be used as a positive rather than a negative,, this seems like a step in the right direction.

3. the elimination of exhaust noise that exits the the pipe is a plus from the "under the radar" viewpoint. (you didnt address this i know)

now if a group of plants that have other intrinsic value could be determined and used in the process, it would appear to be a double gain.
i don't think i would want to eat vegetables from the process, but perhaps some flowers or ornamentals could add some "purdy" to the system.
certainly a flower garden would make for a nice camo job :), who would suspect a flower garden?

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Doug

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2007, 02:49:40 AM »
You should talk to that fellow with the Bi-Ox gas cleaning system for the open top gassifier Bob.

The one with the straw and horse poop....

Doug