Author Topic: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns  (Read 18524 times)

mobile_bob

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mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« on: January 09, 2007, 03:30:58 AM »
been thinking about the epa reg's and how to get a listeroid into compliance
there has been mention of

1. higher injection pressures
2. egr
3. heated intake air
4. reverse flow cooling, (requires a pump)

but i got to thinking, but first i need to digress abit

a. about 15 years ago, there was a guy here in washington that had some wetland area that he wanted to build on, but found the
wetland to be polluted with heavy metals and other nasty stuff. he bought the land and was stuck with it and could not do anything with it.
the story goes he did a bunch of research and found a group of wetland plants that have the property of being able to absorb differing contaminates
into the plant fiber, he planted this stuff, cut it and hauled off the cuttings etc to the landfill. after about 5 years the swamp was retested and was clear of
the contaminates, and no one knew how he did it.

b. CO cannot be used by plants, or at least that is what was commonly held up untill a few years ago when it was found that about 6 or 7 varieties of plants had mutated and became capable of using CO as well as CO2. this was quite a surprise to the scientific community.

so i wonder:

what if you dig a long trench pit, and put a perforated exhaust pipe from your lister , fill with course rock ,then finer, then sand, cap with loose soil, and
you then have accomplished the following

a. noise reduction, a plus
b. no exhaust smoke, or at least greatly diffused
c. particulate matter is trapped underground, carbon for the most part

now we plant stuff that can use the CO2, all plants like that
we plant the select mutants that like CO, now that is used up

all we need now is a plant or group of plants that can derive the nitrogen from the oxides of nitrogen, seems like there atta be some plant that
is capable of doing this, anyone know? or know who to ask?

or is it possible to build a pond above the plot and let these gasses percualate up through the water, perhaps marine plant life, and photosynthesis can
change these gases to something useful and non destructive.

i wonder?

thoughts? anybody know anyone that might have some light to shed on this?

the problem i see with an open exhaust is once into the atmosphere it is much harder to do anything with, but if controlled perhaps in a stationary application
there is a botanical solution to some part or all of the problem

bob g
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Doug

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2007, 04:03:40 AM »
Gee Bob not what I expect from you....

I don' know much about that stuff....

Beverse cooling with that funky high temp coolant.
Better injection.
A PBX.

I know that will work, the PBX works well enough on its own if you can get it up to proper temp...


rmchambers

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2007, 04:49:01 AM »
That's a cool idea, but any application like that would be for a one-off inspection and approval and in order to maintain that approval you'd need to keep all your plants alive and happy (mutants too).

The EPA could do a surprise inspection on your setup.  "excuse me mr Mobile Bob but we don't detect any of the mutant chia grass growing in your exhaust area, therefore you are out of compliance as far as CO exhaust goes.  please cease and desist"

I've also read about some bacteria that enjoy eating oil and have been employed to gobble up the oil that has soaked into the soil and into other areas where oil should not be.

It's amazing how stuff like that evolves to fit a niche.

Robert

mobile_bob

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2007, 04:52:07 AM »
Doug:

"Gee Bob not what I expect from you...."

hopefully that is a good thing :)

i figure if we are going to fly under the radar, we may as well be underground as well, that should be well under the radar.

then i can claim its the washing machine that is out of balance :)

bob g
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danalinscott

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2007, 05:00:42 AM »
The complinace required for EPA certification does not app;ly to  an individual engine or installation.

It applies to  a model or "family" of engines.

The procedure normallly takes at least a year and costs from $8,000 to $30,000. fo rthe EPA testing alone. This is AFTER the testign ahs been done privately to provide base data that the EPA can use when the sample engines are tested at the EPA emissions compliance facility in Mich.
Dana
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mobile_bob

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2007, 06:12:48 AM »
Dana:

i am not trying to be epa compliant, or suggesting the same
what i am suggesting in theory is a way to make it damn near impossible to detect any polution being generated at one installation by one little guy.

1. if it don't make noise, it is hard to know it is even there, much less running

2. if it don't smoke, it is impossible to see it running,

3. if there is plant life that can absorb or use part or all of the biproduct, then even if checked with some future technology in a drive by, it would be nearly impossble to
detect.

4. if it worked one would be a good citizen? :)

5. if it worked and you got caught, you have something to show the press? :) , gain public support?

6. it interests me! (maybe the most important)


then there is the thing about the epa only going after the big guys, and not the little guys. that may be true today, but sooner or later someone figures out how
to make a buck, gain some press, or is just an asshole and comes after the little guys.

who would have guessed a couple of years ago that the epa would want your b&s pushmower to have a cat converter?, well it missed in the last session, but they will be back. you damn well better bet that the listeroid is not going to duck legislation when the day comes you have to have a cat on your lawnmower.

bob g
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rcavictim

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2007, 06:26:49 AM »

A PBX.

I know that will work, the PBX works well enough on its own if you can get it up to proper temp...



Achronyms, argggg.

Simplest way to get a PBX warm would be to have everyone with an extension to call the operator at the same time.  I used to work for the phone company inside plant and I know what a PBX is since I used to cable them.  What do YOU think a PBX is?  I`m fairly certain  you`re not talking about the Prick that Broke the Xerox.
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rmchambers

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2007, 12:48:19 PM »
Haha, I'm a data network guy so I thought the same PBX as you.  To tell you the truth it took me a few days of reading to stumble over what SOM stood for.

biobill

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2007, 03:00:14 PM »
  I love it Bob.  'course the whole mess would have to be under a greenhouse if you wanted to run in the winter. How where would the tomatoes and trout fit in?                                    Bill
Off grid since 1990
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VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw

rcavictim

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2007, 03:23:43 PM »
Haha, I'm a data network guy so I thought the same PBX as you.  To tell you the truth it took me a few days of reading to stumble over what SOM stood for.

Me too!  SOM ain`t natural.  Even though I know what it stands for my brain starts off thinking Sonofa.......say what?   ;D

Blame the Brits!   ;D
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adhall

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2007, 03:30:39 PM »
If you're a bio-diesel guy, you could feed the CO2 to your algae pond and squeeze oil out of the pond scum...

Best regards,
Andy Hall
« Last Edit: January 09, 2007, 03:32:27 PM by adhall »
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hotater

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2007, 03:43:37 PM »
It's easier in the long run to ask 'forgiveness' instead of jumping through the hoops to ask 'permission'.

Set up your engine as you see fit then don't allow anybody to see it but who you invite on the property.

There are NOT  EPA investigators traveling the country looking for smoking engines and going door to door asking about emmisions!!

And if there were, they'd have no power, authority, permission or mandate to go on private property unless it's a corporation under their pervue.
 As far as I'm concerned, the EPA deals with writing regs for imported engines.  Once it gets here and is mine....they'll have a LOT of trouble ever seeing it again.   ;)

BTW, Bob,--    The 'plants taking up minerals' thing is well known in the mining industry.   The vast sub-microscopic gold deposits of N. Nevada (second largest producer on earth)  are layers of sedimentary rocks made up of vast beds of ancient 'compost' of plants naturaly high in cyanide, which has a great affinity for gold and other heavy metals.  Potatoes, rutabegas, carrots, tara, camasroot, onions and others, are high in cyanide and will concentrate molecular gold, silver, mercury, gallium and others.  

The oil eating bacteria is fascinating stuff.   Geneva Steel has been using them for years cleaning up the old rolling mill sumps.  They come in a small plastic pouch and a drum of 'starter fluid'.  When mixed together and poured in oily water the oil slowly disappears and the water increases!  They were discovered in S. Arizona along a stretch of newly black-topped highway that wouldn't STAY there.  
  
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rmchambers

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2007, 03:53:19 PM »

Blame the Brits!   ;D

I am a Brit (living in Connecticut) ;D .  If you're a fan of Wallace and Gromit they also tend to have inventions which look a bit Listeresque.  They had a Soccermatic which was an automatic football (English) player thing.  "The Wrong Trousers" were even Lister green.. coincidence?

danalinscott

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2007, 04:15:12 PM »
Tater,

I agree with nearly every thing in your post save this:
Quote
And if there were, they'd have no power, authority, permission or mandate to go on private property unless it's a corporation under their pervue.
As far as I'm concerned, the EPA deals with writing regs for imported engines.  Once it gets here and is mine....they'll have a LOT of trouble ever seeing it again.

The EPA does not need to see your "non-compliant engine" to order you not to use it.
They have the power to simply send you a cease and desist order and require you provide proof that it is no longer possible to operate the engine in question. They may require that you prove this by allowing them access. Failure to comply may result in fines as high as $25,000 (or higher) per day.  Ifyou choose to ignore this the state PCA is often then involved and THEY then receive a warrent based on the probable cause provided by trhe EPA.

It is a very rare case indeed when this process is aimed at an individual who is not involved in commercial operations.  And it is even rarer when the cease and disist order is not complied with when it is.

The "loophole" most available to us IMO is legitimate research programs. his is of course a huge PITA to set up to the EPAs satisfaction.  But it is possible.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2007, 08:41:21 PM by danalinscott »
Dana
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hotater

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Re: mitigating exhaust and epa concerns
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2007, 04:53:27 PM »
Quote
...send you a cease and desist order ...,,.

My point exactly.   WHAT would the cease and desist order be based on?  A complaint?  By who?  On what probable cause?  Satellite reconnisance?  I don't think so.

I once made three arrest as a result of a black smoke plume that could be seen for forty miles...it was wire theives burning the insulatation off stolen copper wire, but the EPA didn't know anything about it.

IF you're worried about a dealer's records being seized and somebody comes looking for a non-compliant engine??  NO WAY!

It would be the same as the DTV pirate situation several years ago.    People that bought custom made hardware over the internet that was designed to re-program chips that allowed free access to ALL satellite programming, were sent nasty, registered letters.
   DTV hired lawyers to write extremely threatening, and 'officially filed' letters offering to 'settle' the coming storm of unlimited libilities and criminal proscecution for $10K.  "Last chance to settle before suit in Federal Court."
 I told them to kiss my ass.  I could buy whatever I wanted and if they wanted to produce and expert to testify that  I  *COULDN'T* have bought the hardware to program features in a prototype  remote controlled airplane that was last seen going over the horizon. ... "Go pounds sand".     (but not NEARLY as politely)

........and never heard another word.   ;)

Working in the system and knowing what it takes to mount such an offense on an individual hobbiest makes the EPA (maybe) a worry for the importer, but not the buyer or the user.

Come to think of it, I've never seen any EPA guys around any NASCAR track I've been to....or tractor pull, or brush fire, or garbage dump.....only in offices and folks imagination.

NO,  I'm not going to dump used oil, tires and diesel fuel in the creek!!!  I  BELIEVE in clean.

 I don't believe in beaurocrats and kinda enjoy telling them how insignificant to my life they really are.   
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Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.