Author Topic: Finding and Sizing the Right Serpentine Belt  (Read 18024 times)

Dave

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Finding and Sizing the Right Serpentine Belt
« on: January 05, 2007, 03:24:35 AM »
I am laying out the Lister and ST head on the base I am building. The distance between the ST head and the Lister are dependent on the available belts. So far I am finding 98" and 99" 8 rib belts for the 15kw head and 24/2 Lister. The way I figure it is half the circumference of the pulley plus half the circumference of the flywheel plus two times the distance between the crankshaft of the Lister and the shaft of the ST head. The pulley is 11.5" in diameter, the flywheel is 22". Circumference=pi*d
So we have 18" for the pulley, 36" for the flywheel, I estimated 20" seperation for the shafts. Total belt length will be 94".

I think I should try and keep the belt length as short as possible. Does anybody have any suggestions on how close I can put the head and the lister together? I know changing the oil needs to be considered.

Jim Mc

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Re: Finding and Sizing the Right Serpentine Belt
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2007, 04:01:08 AM »
...The way I figure it is half the circumference of the pulley plus half the circumference of the flywheel plus two times the distance between the crankshaft of the Lister and the shaft of the ST head. ...

Wrong.

Check here:

http://www.baumhydraulics.com/belt_length.htm

Dave

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Re: Finding and Sizing the Right Serpentine Belt
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2007, 04:07:09 AM »
Jim,

I plugged in the two diameters 22" and 11.5, plus the distance between the pulleys, 20" and it crunched out 93.97".

ronmar

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Re: Finding and Sizing the Right Serpentine Belt
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2007, 07:56:27 PM »
Neat calculator, I speced mine out on the CAD program. In the case of my 23.5" and 8.4 " wheels, it was 223 degrees of the circumfrence of the larger pulley and 137 degrees of the circumfrence of the smaller pulley plus the straight line lengths between the tangents of the two wheels.  My frame design gave me an adjustable range between a 91.4" belt and a 94" belt.  I pluged my mean spacing and pulley numbers into the program that Jim referenced and it came up with 92 3/4"   If you have the pulleys, you can also lay them out with the correct center spacing and run a string around them and measure that.  Using the numbers you got from the calculator it sounds like you need a belt with a part number 080939 or 080940 or somewhere in that vicinity.  Goodyear belt numbering is pretty standard.  The 08 is the number of grooves.  The 093 is the length in inches and the last digit is fraction of inches.  If you take that part number in to just about any parts store should be able to cross it to their local part number.  Some, like Napa just add a few digits or letters to the front of this standard number.

Good Luck   
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

GeckoPower

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Re: Finding and Sizing the Right Serpentine Belt
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2007, 12:40:59 AM »
You may also want to try finding the more common belts as they may be cheaper and easier to find.  My genny has twin 8 rib belts (99 3/4") from  a dodge cummings I believe.  The belts were $53.?? each.  Also finding a supplier with 2 from the same manufacturer (the exact same length when running ) may be a challenge.  My tensioner system is two pieces of threaded rod about 16" inches long so I can put a wide range of sizes on.  Alignment is a bit tricky but do able.  There is a tiny bit of slippage between the two but I call it tolerable.  The ST head seems to run better under load with the two belts.   The belts still viberate when loaded though.
Off grid since Sept 1 2005,  1 online GTC 6/1, 5k head;  1 wore out 5 hp 2.6kw Honda (but still starts 1 st pull and will put in a 12 hour day;  1 wore out Honda 1kw when I got it, then I wore it out some more; 2004 Duramax Chev 1 ton; 35 hp New Holland Compact Tractor

mobile_bob

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Re: Finding and Sizing the Right Serpentine Belt
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2007, 02:34:30 AM »
you might consider building around what is common, and not try to fit a belt to your needs or wants

hd truck shops have specials every month, and if you look you will find 8 rib belts that are common for dirt cheap as loss leader's to get you in the door

you might find that for a 1/3 of what you would spend for some odd belt that you built up and now need, had you started with a common one.

for instance i have seen detroit belts 8 rib for as low as 10 bucks, when an inch longer costs 50 0r 60 bucks

source the belt first, and then build to suit.

(in my opinion)

and truck shops always have a spare

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
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hotater

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Re: Finding and Sizing the Right Serpentine Belt
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2007, 04:40:16 PM »
Gekopower---

YIKES!!!   TWIN eight rib belts??!   The cheapest six rib from Napa ($10.99) will run any single and genhead for trouble free YEARS.

Also,  If you have belt vibration, the tension is too low...period.  Tighten it up until the slack is GONE.

Here's how close together they can be--

7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

GeckoPower

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Re: Finding and Sizing the Right Serpentine Belt
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2007, 04:53:38 AM »
So, my ultra high end belts should last a lifetime then ;) if price and quality go hand in hand.  Wouldn't too much belt tension prematurely wear out gen head bearings? there is about 1/4" deflection in the center of the belt.   Pullley centers are 24".
Off grid since Sept 1 2005,  1 online GTC 6/1, 5k head;  1 wore out 5 hp 2.6kw Honda (but still starts 1 st pull and will put in a 12 hour day;  1 wore out Honda 1kw when I got it, then I wore it out some more; 2004 Duramax Chev 1 ton; 35 hp New Holland Compact Tractor

mobile_bob

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Re: Finding and Sizing the Right Serpentine Belt
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2007, 06:00:10 AM »
price has nothing to do with cost, and cost has nothing to do with quality
perception is the name of the game
product differentiation  and product recognition are the rule

folks buy fram filters because of name recognition, and if fram paints the bottom of the fllter with undercoater and charges more, then it must be
better ,,, right?   wrong!

in my industry the joke is,,, there are oil filters, and then there are "fram" (and the fram is not requarded as a filter)

moral of the story:

buy a common series of belt, something used for a chevy or a ford, or alternatively something for   a hd truck.
the car market has loss leaders to get you into the door, and if it is a goodyear, gates or one of the major store brands built by one of these manufactures
then buy the most common and cheapest you can get.

btw, the hd truck suppliers can often times provide belts at prices you cannot get at your auto parts store even on sale.

when you work with industrial belts, then go with folks like browning, gates, or goodyear, the quality is across the board very similar.
industrial belts are more specialized, and usually don't have many common belts that the dealer sells alot of, but ask him if he has a fast mover that
he can get you a better deal on.

it never hurts to ask :)

bob g

otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

hotater

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Re: Finding and Sizing the Right Serpentine Belt
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2007, 01:54:48 PM »
I agree with Mobile Bob....over price is not an indication of quality...but it's many times  the first indication of over advertizing.
(Weatherby rifles are the best example of that axiom I've ever seen, but the grocery shelves have thousands of examples of it.)

A quarter inch deflection with a 20 pound load is about right...why are your's flapping?  Tighten until they (it) quits.
The extra belt is best hung on the wall, IMO.    ;)     Why give away power to a belt that doesn't need it.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Doug

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Re: Finding and Sizing the Right Serpentine Belt
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2007, 02:22:34 AM »
So whats a good filter Bob and whats a good belt?

I see a lot of Donaldson industrail filter on hydraulics, and general CAT filters on Cats ect...

Doug

mobile_bob

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Re: Finding and Sizing the Right Serpentine Belt
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2007, 03:13:57 AM »
filters:

air filters are all about the same in quality (the standard paper type), because one can see what he is buying

fuel and oil filters are a different story, you can't generally see what you are getting, unless you cut it apart, which most folks don't

baldwin makes a decent filter, as do wix, and fleetgard.

cat filters are very good, but a bit pricey

if i am religious about changing my oil on time, i use whatever is cheap and available, if i am going for extended service intervals, then i step up to
anything other than fram.

cut apart a ph8a fram some time, yuk!!
closest thing to indian quality built here in the states in my opinion

Belts:

i like Gates for most applications, followed by goodyear
for heavy industrial  browning is hard to beat.

for all interested:

if you can get your hands on a browning catalogue, do so!
they have all the engineering one could ever want for all their drives, beit chain, belt, cog ,, whatever
with prime movers from electric, single cylinder engines and up
a great place to start and get a belt system you know will work forever.

note: gensets with single cylinder engines are especially hard on belt drives, large reductions or speed up drives also effect longevity.
using the engineering charts and guides eliminates all the guesswork, feels like , etc. from your designs
two thumbs up to browning on this one.
you can get one at most brg houses, or can have them order one.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Doug

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Re: Finding and Sizing the Right Serpentine Belt
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2007, 03:31:10 AM »
I was looking at filters with the boy on Sunday. And all the carry are the Motomaster ( store brand ) and Fram.

I was kind of leaning away from the screw on canister in favour of the cartrage type. I chose to go with the later because I want to pull the filter and look it over when its done.

Anyhopw to make a long story short I even noticed a difference in the material used on two different sizes of Fram. I just chalked it up to being the difference between one bypass and another and maybe aplication.

Your right about oil changes Bob. When I used conventional oil in my car I seldom went over about 4000k. My Jetta says to go 16000k but I can't do it I run 8000 with the Synthetic.

My brother is an oil change freak he just waits untill the colour changes and type of driving. He's an HDM like you and manged to get nearly 750,000k on 77 chev pick up.

I'm going to buy that Fram filter and try and see if I can match it to a Donaldson and some of the other you sugest to see if I can spot the difference.

BTW  I have bypass filter/inspection plate mod in the works for the Petter. Maybe something there is useful for the Listers...

 

mobile_bob

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Re: Finding and Sizing the Right Serpentine Belt
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2007, 03:38:20 AM »
the cartridge type filters are much better bet, because you see what you are paying for
the spinon filters can hide it all in the can, and some manufactures hide alot of nothing.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
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SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Finding and Sizing the Right Serpentine Belt
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2007, 05:32:57 AM »
Although I have a PH8A on my engine right now (and Bob never said a bad word about it when he visited today  ::) ) I have some Baldwin B2 filters, which are the direct equivalent (only better). Baldwin also makes a B2 HPG which has a 6 micron rating, and is for sale $10 each on EPAY. The advantage is that these all fit the standard spin on filter head you can buy at any auto parts store. 3/4-16 thread. Now that I've changed to a smaller generator pulley (and reduced engine RPM) my belt is too long. The frame I made is long enough to accomodate it, but the belt does vibrate quite a bit and should be shorter. The 8 rib belt is plenty for 9 Kw, I started getting smoke out of the exhaust, but the belt never squeeked or anything.
Scott E
PS I had the pleasure of having Bob G over for a visit today. It was great! Any of you Lister Heads that can get together with your like minded breatheren should do it! The exchange of ideas is Super!
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's