Author Topic: Safety Modifications  (Read 36695 times)

Guy_Incognito

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2006, 04:08:11 AM »
CO2 fire extinguisher plumbed into the intake manifold.

As long as the thing spins down in time before the CO2 runs out...... :D

dieselgman

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2006, 04:25:38 AM »
One other factor regarding using a decompressor to stop a Lister engine... The manufacturer specifically warns against this because it is likely to damage the valve and/or piston. Maybe OK as a last option in an overrev situation but likely no good for the top end of your engine.

A good safety design will provide for shut down of the fuel and or air.

Gary
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sid

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2006, 04:33:40 AM »
I have see one diesel engine damaged by what you described/ using the decompression to stop an engine/ if out of adjustment it can damage the piston/ but in an emergency. try anything// sid
15 hp fairbanks morris1932/1923 meadows mill
8 hp stover 1923
8 hp lg lister
1932 c.s bell hammer mill
4 hp witte 1917
5 hp des jardin 1926
3 hp mini petters
2hp hercules 1924
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clytle374

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2006, 07:12:00 AM »
CO2 fire extinguisher plumbed into the intake manifold.

As long as the thing spins down in time before the CO2 runs out...... :D

If you got real clever,  Feeding the exhust back to the intake?
Free, plentiful CO2

Someone had mentioned that a fuel cut off would take too long, Ive never shut the fuel off to a running diesel, but without a float bowl, I would think it would be quick.


Cory

rcavictim

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2006, 01:33:02 PM »
CO2 fire extinguisher plumbed into the intake manifold.

As long as the thing spins down in time before the CO2 runs out...... :D

If you got real clever,  Feeding the exhust back to the intake?
Free, plentiful CO2

Someone had mentioned that a fuel cut off would take too long, Ive never shut the fuel off to a running diesel, but without a float bowl, I would think it would be quick.


Cory


If you install a ball valve close to the input of the injection pump and have a non-compressible or low internal volume fuel line between it and the IP you can very effectively stop fuel from squirting out of the injector rather instantly.  Problem with many runaways is that they occur for other reasons than the intended fuel control where fuel is supplied from the crancase oil past rings, etc.  Shutting down the injector in this case does not shut down the runaway engine.
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dkwflight

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2006, 01:40:49 PM »
Hi
I have to wonder if you have seen, started a lister,'roid.



Posted by: dieselgman
 
One other factor regarding using a decompressor to stop a Lister engine... The manufacturer specifically warns against this because it is likely to damage the valve and/or piston. Maybe OK as a last option in an overrev situation but likely no good for the top end of your engine.

A good safety design will provide for shut down of the fuel and or air.

Gary
diesel-electric.us

This is how I shut mine down every time I start it, 'cept I usually shut off the fuel first at the rack. Reaching across the twin is how I get somw minor burns on my sholder if I'm not carfull.
Dennis
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Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

rcavictim

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2006, 01:47:27 PM »
The instance that SHIPCHIEF mentions is the reason for a fuel rack control on the majority of Listers built since the 1960's. These engines are built with a small vacuum bypass in the intake manifold that would likley allow the engine to continue running (barely) even with intake blocked. This is not the intended outcome of the design but rather a by-product of their method of achieving a slight crankcase vacuum. Another consideration... a fail-safe may not have to fully shutdown an engine to be effective in preventing a runaway.

I am not surprised that the Detroit Diesel trained people will lean heavily toward air-shutdown. By the way, I have seen many failures in the Detroit 2-cycle shutdown controls and shutters and in my opinion they are generally more complex and less reliable than fuel-rack servos. They do NOT always fail in the shutdown position but are as likely to fail in the open position thereby eliminating their function of protecting the engine.

What is the likelihood of a fuel rack failure or an overrev on a Lister CS? On other models I would say that the odds are pretty strongly against it even though they rely on mechanical linkages. The normal position for these mechanisms is shut-down, all the internal springs push that way except for the governor. The newer (1960's onward) designs have a spring loaded disconnect between governor and fuel rack so a governor failure will normally not cause an overspeed condition.

Gary,
diesel-electric.us

My Petter PJ-1 (1966) has a 1/4 inch OD steel line segment installed in the head making a path just prior to the intake valve inside the intake runner directly to the airspace inside the valve cover.  This was IMO to provide crankcase ventillation.  Gary pointed out that Listers had this and also mentions crankcase vacuum as a benefit and that reminded me of it`s value to reduce oilleaks out of the block as well.  In an attempt to reduce the oil problem in my exhaust which I have now determined is a crack in the head related to the exhaust port, I sealed this vent tube and to replace the PCV function I installed a hose barb on the little inspection cover on the valve cover where the exhaust valve lifter (decompressor lever) can be adjusted, to my outboard oil bath air filter.  As a bonus the clear hose gives me a visual indication if there is a deteriorating blowby situation as the engine wears.  So far it has remained spotlessly clean inside.

My Petter rack is pulled towards open by the external governor spring.  If the governor breaks the engine will go to full rack.  It appears not to have occurred in some 99,000 hours, the age of my engine according to the hour meter on the genset plant from which it came.

I have no way of blocking the intake air right now as set up.  Perhaps I should consider installing a 1-1/2 to 2 inch ball valve in the intake air line.  The way I am set up, this would not be difficult to do, and the small internal air source tube is now defeated.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
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-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
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ranexs

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Quick shot down Safety Modifications
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2006, 02:15:38 PM »
Somehow easy automatic way is shut intake air.
The basic is that you build a plate to block the intake hole.

Simple is a round plate, a rod in the middle, a small frame and spring.
When you want to start the engine, you pull the plate backwards to open intake, like load a gun.
Now the spring is loaded and held loaded with a trigger.

Now there is many ways to "sho(o)t"

-easiest manually.
-a knob bumping out from flywheel, if centrifugal force is too high,  knock hitting a  piece fastened in wire, wire  pulling trigger.  Seen that  in an Russian engine.
-there is  now million ways to guide the trigger electrically: temperature, load, vibration, belt....you name it.

mobile_bob

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2006, 04:47:10 PM »
it has been said that a detroit air door mechanism can fail, yes they can if they are not perodically checked and serviced
every detroit mechanic is trained to verify the operation of the air shutdown before he attempts to start the engine after
any sortof work on the overhead or govenor.

i still maintain that a 1.5 id ball valve which is a 1/4 turn type  of valve could be used with a spring to close, solenoid to open
and make for an easy to fabricate and positive air shutdown device.

i really wonder how many of you have enough hair on your ass, to actually walk up to you engine in a runaway scenario,
i have had to walk up to runaway diesels, and i am here to tell you it is not something you do without talking to god all the while.

i cannot imagine having to reach anythere over the engine while in a runaway mode, to fiddle with anything, when a trip of a
switch would cut power to the solenoid and allow the air to be shut off to the engine, that switch could be mounted anywhere
at a safe distance away from the machine,

even if you have the hair, think of you wife and kids, or other loved ones, do you want them to have to walk up to a ticking bomb to
diffuse it?

perhaps someone should send "mythbuster" a 6/1 so they can set it up to do a "runaway" in their test facility and show on tv the reality
of what one is dealing with under this scenario.

at the very least put a ball valve in the intake that you can close by moving the lever by hand!!

bob g
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DREW

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2006, 04:59:57 PM »
hi all
 i like sid's idea of the jc whitney exhaust cutout for a quick and easy fix for an emergency cutoff of the air supply. it is cable controled and can be routed to the outside of any generator house. this can be a manual addition to any automatic shutoff controls that many of you are thinking up. i am in fire alarm industry and deal with relays, temperature, waterflow, heat, smoke etc. always dealing with if-then-else situations.
         drew
changfa 195 7kw, ashwamegh 6/1 5kw

sid

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2006, 08:01:43 PM »
 the exhaust cut out is a simple repair to a dangerous stiutation that would require very little to install//plus you could shut it off and not get very close to it. I echo bobs feelings about walking up to a run way diesel and trying to shut the fuel off or the air// not much to add to his observation of doing that//sid
15 hp fairbanks morris1932/1923 meadows mill
8 hp stover 1923
8 hp lg lister
1932 c.s bell hammer mill
4 hp witte 1917
5 hp des jardin 1926
3 hp mini petters
2hp hercules 1924
1 1/2 briggs.etc

Doug

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2006, 11:52:19 PM »
As kid I remember watching a back hoe nose dive into a ditch and the engine ran away.
My dad who didn't know any of the people, knew how to shut down a detroit and climbed up and shut it down.

A chum of mine running an 8A had it run away. He climbed over the engine compartment, layed on his belly with an inch or armour meant to protect the engine from falling loose and reached in siode and shut it down.
The Mecahnics scolded him and told him he should have just walked away and let it blow.

The wrong dipstick on Land Crusier meant it was over filled durring a service. The mechanic clamly got in the cab point it at the side of drift and nudget it to the rock face and dumped the clutch stalling it.

Some people I know will stop a run away if the think they can, I might too if I had a clear plan.

Another friend of mine hates his new E stone 50 ton haulage truck because its blown off oil filter or oil line too close to the air cleaners for his liking. He says he'll walk away and let it go, there's nothing he can do based on the design of it were to happen.

Doug

Guy_Incognito

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #42 on: January 01, 2007, 09:29:04 AM »
Everyone does keep a fire extinguisher handy in a prominent place near the door of the workshop, don't they? A big one?

Also if you have it in the basement or close to the house - seriously consider an automatic fire suppression system. Basically, you string a trip line around/on the machine and if it melts it sets off a suitably sized container of a foam solution. Not too cheap, but it's peace of mind - you're not going to be sitting on a chair next to the engine all day keeping an eye on it. And the insurance company might be a bit more forgiving if your house burns down and you did have one of those installed.

If yours is a setup with large amounts of fuel storage, I hope it and the engine are as physically separate as possible. A brick wall between  them is a good suggestion. Saw the remains of a genset where the tank had been mounted above the engine and the outlet at the bottom of the tank broke off when a guy stumbled next to the genset and put his hand out. Lack of housekeeping around the set didn't help.

If you can do a remote shutdown with pull cables/etc, make sure it's well signed - the first person there might not be you.

As mentioned, guard everything you can. We're all aware of it, but you only have to forget it once and you're in trouble. And lets not forget other people who might not be quite as aware of the dangers - kids especially, the little buggers get everywhere.

(off topic) Doug - Those haul trucks don't happen to have C15 or C18 engines in them do they? If so, expect their life to be about 4500 hours. That setup could have used a few more hours under test - there's a terrible harmonic issue with them internally in that particular engine/tranny/truck configuration. We break wires all over that engine about once a week - they just fracture. We've broken off a few sump pickup tubes, cracked many timing covers, busted a few alternator and a/c compressor mounts off. Harmonics in a water jacket near the liners causes a lot of wear on an internal lip on the block near an o-ring, causing coolant in oil and a stuffed block. Had a couple of free engines from CAT and a mine nearby gets them regularly changed out at 4000 hours (!) under warranty. Should've stuck with the old V8.

buickanddeere

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #43 on: January 01, 2007, 04:43:02 PM »
  I've retrofitted one house to automatic sprinkler protection and this one is in progress.
  Not too tough a job as 3/4 copper pipe can be snuck through closets, utility rooms, cupboards etc. Right now the fireplace area, entertainment center area, both bathrooms, two bed rooms are covered. One of these months I'll spend two hours less a week on the computer and finish the main hallway, kitchen over the stove, utility room, the other three bedrooms and garage.
  I've seen the impressive videos of domestic sprinkler tests. One sprinkler head swatted a nasty blazing couch down in less than a minute. 
  Only drawback is visitors and family think somebody with backup power, fire stingushers, fire sprinklers and fire/security alarm are totally out of touch with reality???

rcavictim

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Re: Safety Modifications
« Reply #44 on: January 01, 2007, 06:33:27 PM »
 
  Only drawback is visitors and family think somebody with backup power, fire stingushers, fire sprinklers and fire/security alarm are totally out of touch with reality???

Yes and they are brainwashed fools. Same folks think one who stores food for an emergency is a radical whacko that needs to be watched or reported to the so called authorities.  My brother has an expression `That`s what insurance is for`.  He leaves his keys in his Jaguar and it got stolen once.  He was incredibly lucky it was abandoned unharmed by thieves unknown a few blocks from his home.

I also would like the added security of a fire control system in my home, especially as I use a woodstove.  That is where the first sprinkler head would go.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion