Author Topic: Engine/flywheel failure poll  (Read 22108 times)

Guy_Incognito

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Engine/flywheel failure poll
« on: December 28, 2006, 06:05:19 AM »
There are two things to consider with any hazard, risk and consequence.
I feel that certain people here overstate at least one of those two things in order to maintain their point of view.
And no doubt certain others understate them as well to maintain theirs.

We are generally aware of the consequences of an errant flywheel/engine.

But the risk of it happening? That's the issue.

The "But it could fly apart and kill us all!" argument becomes effectively meaningless if in a group of a thousand engines it happens once in 30 years. At that point , it becomes a risk on par with being stabbed in the chest by a stingray barb, when you don't live near the ocean. However, if you say to me "About 1 in 20 engines will fly apart and kill us all before 1,000 hours" - that's a different story altogether.

Amongst the 700-odd members and the hundreds of unique engines of variable quality and configuration and no doubt many 10's of thousands of hours, there is enough information to get at least a basic overview. And this is not just an overview to decide on how to mount the engine, it's a overall safety issue that goes beyond that. If I find that one in 20 people have had flywheel issues regardless of mounting style, that's really going to alter my goals regarding listeroids.

This is the kind of info I think we all need.

So, the questions I put to the board are :

For the case of an errant flywheel :
- How many have had a flywheel incidents? Any incident that might have eventually caused or did cause flywheel separation.
- Can it be traced conclusively to a particular mounting design or issue  - bad casts/enthusiastic assembly/poor inspection/maintenance?
- The consequences of said incidents at the point when they were detected? Equipment damage at that point? Injury?

For the case of an errant engine:
- How many people have had engines physically separate or begin to separate from their mounts? For any reason - during overrev, flywheel failure, normal use, whatever.
- For those that didn't fully separate, at the time this was detected, what was the possibility at that point of the engine being able to become completely separated (eg, held on by 1/2 a cracked bolt, or minor crack in subframe that didn't grow any further in 10 hours)?

For the case of catastrophic engine failure:
- How many people have had a catastrophic internal engine failure? Snapped a crankshaft, seized it at high RPM/load, busted a timing gear, whatever, as long as it was internal, and halted the engine.
- As a consequence of that, was there any external damage? Physical injury to people?
If you've had these issues post here with engine hours, any special factors, etc.

Post what you know, and stick to the facts/observations. If you heard it knocking and turned it off, that's all you put. No need for the "if it kept running, it would have killed us all!" part.

duh

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2006, 10:55:39 AM »
Bravo! Bravo!
I second this - excellent post!   :D

dieselgman

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2006, 11:14:53 AM »
I agree as well, Incognito... the rants I have observed here are tiresome and do little to help understand and deal with real problems.

Gary
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biobill

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2006, 02:19:47 PM »
   Thanks Guy,
 It all seems inherently less risky than riding in a car a foot away from opposing traffic when an inch of steering wheel movement (a sneeze?) would be catastrophic. Life is risky, but obsessing about it can lead to paralysis.
 The only reason either of my engines has stopped is because I ran them out of fuel. No one was hurt.
                                                           Bill 
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6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw

GuyFawkes

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2006, 02:31:03 PM »
"risk" doesn't mean what you think it means, as far as "rants" go......

a listeroid ain't a marlin harpooning you through the heart, marlins don't have estates to get sued by no win no fee ambulance chasers and marlins don't have asses to throw in pound me in the ass penitentiary.

1/ FACT, no listeroid that I am aware of has any kind of quality control, as will be defined in a court of law come culpable negligence lawsuit or manslaughter through neglect cases.

2/ FACT, all data available says that things like flywheel gib keys are routinely hammered in blindly.

3/ FACT, we have had people posting pictures of at least one broken flywheel, so you can't claim ignorance.

4/ FACT, we have had people (such as me) "ranting" about the dangers of fucking with shit you clearly don't understand, so you can't claim ignorance.

5/ FACT, every expert witness engineer a court can find will attest under oath that it is common knowledge that hammering on cast iron is a no-no, that flexible mounts on stationary engines are unheard of in industry, that balancing flywheels without first KNOWING FOR A FACT what reciprocating, rotating and eccentric forces need to be compensated for, AND AT WHAT RACK OPENINGS, to the bloody GRAM, is absofuckinglutely verboten.

6/ FACT, everyone knows every listeroid is different, even before fuckers start modifying them willy nilly and working on them in ways that make you cringe, so good luck with claiming that freds ashwamegh constitutes a valid basis for your base assumptions about your jkson.

7/ FACT, everyone knows we have had people from India telling the straight shit about how these engines are made, assembled and sold, and said people going on record as saying the conscience about this forced them into a change in career.

8/ FACT, everyone knows these engines have dubious legal standing with regard to state regulations and standards of various sorts, and everyone knows there is no ISO, BS or other type approval on anything, nor is there any warranty.

9/ FACT, everyone knows when the shit hits the fan worst case scenario is 150 pounds of cast iron flywheel taking off at 60 mph and keeping going for 2 miles, unless something gets in the way, like the station wagon full of kids on the school run, or the tanker carrying 30,000 litres of gasoline (know what a BLEVE is?)



or the aftermath of a domestic propane tank



10/ FACT, as long as you have a hole in your ass you will NEVER convince the court you excercised due diligence (this post will be yet another nail in your coffin) and the prosecution legal team will have a slam dunk every time, and use your deliberate wilful negligence to boost the compensation award or penitentiary time up into the stratosphere.

11/ FACT, your bullshit follows you around, EVERYTHING you publish on the net, thanks to google and archive.org and others, remains there for posterity, and sometime in the future people connect dots and realise *you* are the same John Smith as the guy who posted about listeroids back in 2006, kiss your job goodbye..... NEVER EVER EVER say anything online either in email or on a forum or web page that you aren't prepared to bet your job and career on, this is a trend that is getting ever more prevalent as databases integrate, mark my words, in ten years what you post will affect whether you can get or afford insurance too, and a whole host of other shit.

12/ FACT, ignorance never has been and never will be an acceptable defence in law.

13/ FACT, your fuckup WILL be used by someone with an agenda to bring in a new law or regulation and generally make life worse for everyone who wasn't a lunatic.

14/ FACT, if your number comes up, even if your conscience and the collective conscience of all those who didn't tell you that you were a bloody fool aren't involved, massive lawsuits and jail time make life changing and significant alterations for decades hence to those whose only crime was to be related to you.

and finally esther..........

15/ FACT, there is NO FUCKING DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER between the relationship between you guy incognito and the numbnuts that screwed the relief valve in, and between those of us who do understand this shit and you, except, you can't see it cos you are on the inside, matey who screwed the relief valve in wasn't in his opinion doing anything criminally negligent and manslaughter dangerous, he was acting under the genuine belief that his actions were safe enough and he was well enough informed to make that call on whether or not his actions were safe enough.

That thing I said about having learned the smell of the chain of events that lead to an "accident", you lot reek of it, and don't get me wrong, I have reeked of it when I have fucked around outside my field of knowledge and competence, but it is a fundamental principle of this that those doing the lunatic thing have no sense of smell with regard to the thing they are doing.

These are, without doubt, my final words on the subject. This place is literally starting to get too dangerous to be associated with.
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aqmxv

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2006, 03:37:18 PM »
Spoken like a Briton.  The entertaining combination of Crown law, common law, EU statutes, and rights officially lent from the state to the individual on a case-by-case basis does indeed create the possibility of truly horrifying results from running a large flywheel engine in a high population density area.  I think the only safe course is for all britons to ship their CS Listers to North America immediately!

Here in the US, we've been dealing with product liability suits, negligence suits, etc a lot longer.  Accordingly, the legal process of the hypothetical hunk-of-flywheel kills car full of kids case is pretty easy to plot here.

1) An official investigation occurs to determine possible malfeasance and/or criminal negligence.  In most states in the US, this translates into three questions asked by the local prosecutor's office:  A) did you intend to hurt someone.  B) was there a reasonable likelihood that this would fail in such a way that hurting someone was a probable and forseeable outcome of something you deliberately did.  C) will the prosecutor get any time on evening TV news for prosecuting the case as a negligence or malfeasance case?

C) is usually what scuttles this sort of thing.  Frankly, the US has pretty significant regard for the sanctity of you doing what you want to do on your property, because it really IS your property.  It's not a loan from the crown.  If you carefully pointed the flywheel rims at the hospital or orphanage across the street that's one thing.  In most cases, if you demonstrate care in siting and a "reasonable effort" at containment, you can demonstrate that you were not criminally negligent.  That and the poor newsworthiness of something as obscure as death(s) resulting from running a generator on your property will most likely scuttle the criminal investigation.  Here endeth the possibility of ending up in the Federal Pound-you-in-the-ass prison (I see you've watched office space.)

That leaves tort law.  You will almost certainly be found liable for tort damages.  Everybody in the US is, sooner or later.  Now for the fun part - you're a private citizen with a relatively small net worth.  Chances are good to excellent that a large corporate entity will be the primary focus of the tort cases because that's where the money is.  And tort law is emphatically not criminal law.  The courts insist that a workable settlement be made that is sustainable by all parties - no treaty of versailles here.

Having said that, I'd point out that you do have a very strong moral (and legal) duty to do all that is reasonable to prevent a flywheel failure causing death or injury down the road.  Regular inspection, careful assembly, and probably a lot of reinforced concrete around the flywheel to act as a massive frangible shield and soak up a lot of kinetic energy if you live in suburbia.  The further out in the sticks you are, the less care you need to take.


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Doug

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2006, 05:33:39 PM »
Oh ya trouble is the mail, just a matter of time before it gets here.

I've seaid this before and been flamed for clearly pointing out the vender has his neck on the block when he sells a product with this potential if he can't prove in a court of law he took every reasonable to ensure that in the normal opperation of these engines parts like this ould not fail to to poor construction.

But what do I know, I've only been down this road a few times with industrial equipment.

Doug

In the USA spill a cup of coffee in your lap, scald your willy, be the first to sue and odds are you win.
And thats just a cup of coffee.

Oh yes I'll ask one last time. Metro Export ( I suspect some people in India are reading this ) and Sam Crosby would you care to comment on the root causes of the failer in question on the Metro that failed?

Sam I assume your a nice fellow and many here say your a fair buisness man. I'm not trying to mount a head on a pike I want some honest discussion. For that matter would any vender like to move this discussion out into the open
« Last Edit: December 28, 2006, 05:45:16 PM by Doug »

xyzer

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2006, 05:45:05 PM »
Post what you know, and stick to the facts/observations. If you heard it knocking and turned it off, that's all you put. No need for the "if it kept running, it would have killed us all!" part.

I guess it needed to be repeated?! Does anyone know what a fact/observation is?
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Doug

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2006, 06:24:15 PM »
Here's a fact for you....

Before the Roid:

I wanted to clone Victaulic 77 pipe fittings in Rajkot.
I could get the parts made.
I needed to provide tecnical information on my product before I could sell it here in Canada.
I wanted a CSA aproval and  orTSSA along with a few other specifics.

The reality is no one would by these parts from me if I had proceeded. The reason is simple inspite of the fact regulations in Canada allow for sale and use of a clone like this for mining the risk of a pipe bursting scared people away.

The idea of a 8 inch air line failing at a joint and all the rust and crud inside sand blasting some poor sods head clean off his shoulders was enough to make me walk away.

There are real problems that needs to be faced here.
I live and work in a world where you can't weld a crack in a hand rail because you can't verify a repair on a device like that safety related device.
I can't substitue a part of similar design for another that may pose a safety issue unless it is EXACTLY the same and engineered with proff and documentation that it will serve the exact same function.
We killed to many people in my industry by improvising parts over the years. The leasons learned and standards I follow are to protect my ass and well safe guard the lives of other people.

Obvioulsy we have a problem with the roids, why are some many people resistant to taking owner ship of the problem and trying to do something about it?

Lifted from an Ebay auction of Listeroids and Petteroids

"Buyer agrees not to hold the seller liable for accidents and injuries."

This man knows the potential his products has, but I don't know if this will hold water in the court of law....

A Pinto was only dangerous if you were rear ended...
Corvairs only rolled over in corners....
Vynal cloride was only dangerous as a airosol propelant if you inhailed...
Lead in a plastic window blinds ( used to soften PVC in cheap Chinese walmart brand crap ) only became an issue of you expose the plastic to oxygen and UV and let your kids touch the dust from and lick there fingers...

Done now
Doug

 



Doug

Doug

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2006, 07:34:34 PM »
Ya I have an issue with my fly wheel to get back on track..

My issue is should I reach to the right and get the CAT yellow and blow a coat of paint on it.

Or should I reach to the left for a sledge hammer and beat the crap out of it and pick threw the pieces looking at where it broke up and try and decied if I wasted my money.


Doug

rpg52

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2006, 08:28:17 PM »
Doug:  "Corvairs only rolled over in corners...."
Having nothing to do with this thread, however, I can attest (from a back seat) that Corvairs also rolled on the straight, if you are driving like a maniac, trying to keep up with a Jaguar.  Maybe there are points to be taken here.  However, staying within the bounds of design (from whence the engine mounting discussion(s) are derived), it seems likely most listeroids will be fine.  Unfortunately, GF is also right, in that the first unlucky (or ignorant) owner that kills some innocent will result in a lot of S___ hitting the fan.  My $0.02.
Ray
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

hotater

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2006, 08:40:54 PM »
Direct observations--

My first Listeroid ran for 7200 hours and generated about 8800KwH before being retired.

It quit four times.   Three of them were from carbon chunks in the exhaust valve. (bad injector)

The one mechanical failure was a broken pinion gear which also broke the cam gear.



As I recall (it's written on an electrical box cover) that happened at about 1800 hours.  An experimental 'yellow' gear was sent and installed.  The teeth on that gear are now very thin.  Pictures soon.

Porosity of flywheels--

My FuKing engine is a serious 'jumper'.  There is no speed where it doesn't 'lope'....it reminds me of a horse that doesn't change 'leads' in a turn.

  The flywheels were made of a large amount of plaster stuck to cast iron not fit for window weights.



The flywheels have been ultra-sonically measured for thickness....I have that capability.  Theoretically the same instrument can be used to find voids.  I didn't identify any, but there are places on the spokes that give odd measurements.
  Neither wheel has been removed from the crankshaft, but the off side wheel DID loosen a gib key in the first fifty hours.   I found the loose key by my standard 'tap test' with whatever I happen to pick up to tap both wheels and the genhead wheel with.  I also identified a cracked spoke braze in the genhead wheel by noting a 'different/dull/buzzing' tone when tapped several thousand hours later. (tested with belt in place)

  It's possible the difference in weight of these two fly wheels is several pounds.  I'll weigh and check balance this time.

 They HAVE been over-revved.  I don't know how much, but the first start-up was faster than 'standard' speed set by Kill-a-Watt by at least 150 rpm.  (Those that haven't seen and heard 650 rpm have a hard time guessing at it and Indian governor setters do too.)

I consider a flywheel "proofed" when it's been run rated speed and doesn't blow up.  It's not doing any hard cornering or impacts....unless it's moving in more than one plane.   ;)

If you want someone else to protect you from bad wheels why not have an engine 'builder' or flywheel foundary set up a test pit and certify wheels at X rpm??  Those that want to pay extra for flywheels tested can do so....or do your own.   But leave the regulations to the free market place, not some politician's idea of a good way to pamper his voters.....and take more of their money.
<off topic political rant gulped back down to fester some more.>
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

duh

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2006, 09:01:30 PM »
hotater,
Just out of interest, can you recall the approx RPM that engine ran at for the bulk of its hours?
Thanks,

Duh
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hotater

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2006, 09:05:33 PM »
duh--

On that engine 60hz equalled 660 rpm.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

duh

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2006, 09:11:33 PM »
Thanks hotater!
Just interested especially since you mentioned it was a jumper!

duh
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