Author Topic: Engine/flywheel failure poll  (Read 22012 times)

phaedrus

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2006, 07:13:06 PM »
Gentlemen,

I had a new GTC 6-1 with about 10 hours display a tight big end - squallared" now and then... I suppose she coulda' seized up and thrown a rod...

But speaking generally to the matter of safety, I would remark that policy is the primary matter. If the in-fact policy is to be safe, then the people associated tend to be safe - rules and procedures notwithstanding. This requires intent, and informed intelligence - and it's time-consuming, but it works (the Saint Louis Arch project's a good example). Contra-wise while procedures are a great help, simply following them can lead to serious loss, as the example of the British submarine Thetis (http://www.rnsubmus.co.uk/general/losses.htm#thetis ) will show. (What is left out of the Thetis story is that the forward compartment crew had an officer that insisted on following procedure even when it should have been obvious that the tube was flooded - they had to force the torpedo-tube door with a pipe and a chain hoist!)

As to flywheels - I think that an Enterprise engine at Seabrook (nuclear plant) had a (steel) flywheel (9,000 pounds of flywheel) come loose back about 1980-something. Yup. Dangerous. (I think it was related to a cracked crank web.) As to open drives, chain, belt, shaft, all kinds - I see 'em all the time. Know your space and know your machinery, know your way out, stand clear, then Pay Attention and play "what if...". and then follow procedure.

As to "the law", both criminal and tort - these days anybody who doesn't understand that it's all political and simply follows the power and money trail is living in a fantasy - those giant tort judgments are almost always reversed or lowered dramatically on appeal. Ignorance is a defense - for some, depends on the money...

Lister CS types are modestly dangerous according to some views. My own view? Hummmm.... it depends on the place and the people and their attitude. I wouldn't run a 6-1 in a suburban garage with sheetrock and plywood walls, not for long anyway...not unless the machine was properly bolted to an independent foundation and was caged properly with OSHA compliant guards...I wouldn't store dynamite there either...

My foundation here is 6000 pounds of concrete - and the neighbors are 1/2 mile away.

Phaedrus
if ya don't ask permission they can't deny it...

rpg52

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2006, 07:26:21 PM »
Phaedrus:  "I wouldn't run a 6-1 in a suburban garage with sheetrock and plywood walls, not for long anyway...not unless the machine was properly bolted to an independent foundation and was caged properly with OSHA compliant guards...I wouldn't store dynamite there either..."

Maybe we have the wrong question.  How many of us are running our listeroid for long hours in a suburban neighborhood without any form of containment for the flywheels?  Occasional use seems low risk, hotater could have any number of flywheel explosions and no one (except himself) would even know.  Personally, I haven't gotten mine together yet, but the closest neighbor in line with the flywheel vectors is ~>100 yards uphill through forest and two fences.  I'm not concerned, but it seems like maybe someone living in a dense neighborhood running their listeroid 24/7 should be?  Don't know the answer, just asking the question.
Ray
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

hotater

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2006, 08:56:34 PM »
Everything we do is the result of a 'risk/reward' assessment of the situation.  Those that fear EVERYTHING usually spend their lives as shut-ins and miserable.  Those that have fear of NOTHING either die young or live lucky.  Somewhere in the middle are the vast majoriety that don't stay home when the satelite shows a cloud in the state, but don't stand around like lightning rods in a thunderstorm, either.

I once investigated a case where an Army vet and experienced 'over the course' rifle marksman, while 'dry firing' at a target on a wall,  shot a military ball NM-'61 30-06 through six and a half mobile homes before killing a microwave oven.....
   He had a point.  "That USED be cow pasture!!"

I had a year to plan my new engine mount.  The ONLY practical way to mount the new engine pointed the flywheels right towards my 'office'.....so I parked a snow plow between us.    ;)
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

biobill

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2006, 09:36:38 PM »
In cases where appearance is not an issue, but flywheel containment is desirable, how about a running the wheel in a securely mounted truck tire. Just for S&Gs I tried a 10X20 on for size and it fit well, enclosing the rim but with plenty of running clearance. Not as much chance of a riccochet as there would be with steel or concrete containment and the things are tough. Blasters use them all the time. I like the idea of a little 'give' when trying to stop heavy objects on the move (resilient? ;)) and, while I have no interest in running scientific tests to see if it would contain all the shrapnel, I'm sure it would slow it down quite a bit.

                                                       Bill 
Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw

duh

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2006, 09:42:06 PM »
Hi biobill,
Excellent idea!! Could easily get 2 (one for each flywheel.)
What size flywheels do you have?

Duh

hotater

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2006, 09:52:50 PM »
Quote
while I have no interest in running scientific tests to see if it would contain all the shrapnel, I'm sure it would slow it down quite a bit.

......it reminds me of the time I was ask to 'test' the first kevlar bullet proof vest material.  A dealer was trying to sell to the SO and I was chosen to test it.
  The directions said to put the square foot of kevlar on a phone book and shoot it to see that it didn't go through....phone book?!  We have no deputies THAT hard and fit!  How about a boat cushion?

The boat cushion was set in the crotch of a small oak with a patch of kevlar duct taped to it.  I stepped back about twenty feet and shot it with a 41Mag.
  There was a fluttering 'comet' that flew out of the tree and down into the river swamp....and a hole the size of two fist through the boat cushion.   :o

Ya'll REALLY need to read the test that were done in 1903, 04 and 05.  Flywheels aren't like ordinary shrapnel.  The only time one is likely to break is in an overspeed condition...THAT sure doesn't help in the containment department! 
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

biobill

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2006, 02:20:47 AM »
Hi biobill,
Excellent idea!! Could easily get 2 (one for each flywheel.)
What size flywheels do you have?

Duh

Duh
  23.5" wheels . You'll have to do a bit of carving to mount them, especially with your 'balanced loads'( belt on each wheel) but also around the IP, gov links, and fuel filter if it's still there. They are a bitch to cut. and can really stink up a garage. I used a circular saw with   a sacrificial carbide and abrasive blade and a sawsall with a demo blade. The cables in the bead are extremely tough. They'll strip the teeth off a hacksaw blade in about ten strokes.
  I had envisioned slotting them for the belt(s) and strapping the gap with something substantial but that's as far as I got. Be interested in what you come up with if you decide to do it.
 
Hotater
  Sounds like the kevlar was acting as a pre-expander to maximize the damage. How many did they buy? Like I said, I'm not interested in doing the testing :o
                                               Bill
Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw

buickanddeere

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2007, 04:55:36 AM »
  "As to open drives, chain, belt, shaft, all kinds - I see 'em all the time. Know your space and know your machinery, know your way out, stand clear, then Pay Attention and play "what if...". and then follow procedure."

   Well yes and no but mostly no.
   We all have at one time or another; stood up under an open cupboard door that we ourselves opened moments before. Stood up under a stairway when we thought we were past the last step. Been trouble shooting electrical equipment switching it on/test, off/ tinker, on/test and eventually on/tinker...........zap.
  A shield over hazards is just good common sense. Yes I know it takes time & money but so does hospital stays or funerals.
  A couple of years ago we had a young family man shoveling spilled coal out from under a belt conveyor at the Nanticoke Plant. A common and regular task done for many years. This fellow, likely tired, thought he was far enough away and stood up . He was grabbed by the hair and head between the lower rollers and the belt and dragged along/pulled through. The area and conveyor was a ghastly mess to clean up.   

Doug

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2007, 06:05:44 AM »
Same thing happened where I work several years ago. Investigations led to some changes like better lighting and changes to house keeping rules.
Awful way to die...

Doug

solarflare

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2007, 09:17:53 PM »
I must say that this has been the best after dinner reading i've had in awhile and must stress that all have made some very valid points to consider! And some were just plain B.S. I am new to this forum and have found it extremely useful, educational and very informative. I believe we all need to take an "EDUCATED and CALCULATED" risks in todays world therefore, continue posting your comments for all to judge and not secrectly peek in to see whats is being said.

Username: GuyFawkes     Picture/Text
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GF please continue to post your thoughts as there's always need for ONE person with views like yours to sometimes putthings into perspective, well some what ::).


Happy New Years to all and may 2007 be the year of the LISTER"oid"


Jim Mc

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2007, 02:36:22 AM »
    We all have at one time or another; stood up under an open cupboard door that we ourselves opened moments before. Stood up under a stairway when we thought we were past the last step. ....

 ... A shield over hazards is just good common sense.

Well said.  Excellent post.

Rod

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2007, 12:54:11 PM »
    Would anyone know if an eight inch poured concrete foundation wall would hold a blown flywheel? Mine is in a room I made between the garage & basement. Both have 8" poured concrete walls. Another question that I havn't seen mentioned is the possibilty of it going up rather than out, I'd hate to have it come down through the roof. It's a lot different but I read of a steam boiler (home size) that came out of a basement in a 2 story house over an old Oak tree and landed two blocks away, in the boiler inspectors front lawn!!
     Rod

hotater

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2007, 02:01:05 PM »
Rod--

How big is the flywheel, how fast is it going, how heavy are the pieces and how strong is the wall?

The short answer for the typical 6-1 that over-revs to what is assumed the failure limit is that there is likely to be parts escape through the stem wall and parts of the wall might become a short range projectiles. It's also likely parts of the flywheel will go (far) over the wall.  BUT, you're far better off having the wall than not and the wall should contain MOST of the parts.
  A couple layers of chain-link fencing attached to floor joist and foundation would go a LONG ways in containing pieces going up.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

snail

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Re: Engine/flywheel failure poll
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2007, 12:12:19 AM »
Quote
Would anyone know if an eight inch poured concrete foundation wall would hold a blown flywheel?

I posted this ages ago;

Quote
The "flywheel explosion test" test was actually tried by the Southern Cross foundry in Australia sometime around the 1950's. They apparently took one of their solid flywheels (presumably around the 20 inch range) and geared it up via a layshaft from one of their big diesels. They built a sandbagged enclosure to catch the bits but when it finally let go at 5300RPM the enclosure was destroyed and at least one major chunk travelled 500 yards horizontally.They didn't mention the vertical component!

Doesn't exactly answer your question but may give you an idea :)

cheers,

Brian