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Author Topic: diesel engine compression  (Read 7391 times)

jackbauer

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diesel engine compression
« on: December 22, 2006, 03:30:19 PM »
hi all,
until recent times i didnt have any real hands on experience with diesel engines.I got interested in running a diesel for home power generation and my first acquisition was a 1.8 litre 4 cylinder car engine. A few weeks ago i purchased a lister LT1 on ebay as a non runner due to no compression. Both of these engines had been stored for a long time.probably in excess of 5 years.

I built a generator style frame for the ford 4 cylinder and got it all setup to start. I had noticed a distinct absence of high compression when turing it on the starter and with a socket arm while getting it ready. I carried out some tasks to make the first startup easier(or so i thought!) like cranking it with the glowplugs removed to build up oil pressure and clear air from the fuel system. also put a few drops of engine oil into the swirl chambers before installing new glowplugs. the first 15 minutes or so of start attempts yeilded nothing. no smoke , no sounds of the engine wanting to go etc.thought i had a junker. took a break to rest the starter. next try i fryed the glowplugs and started to get some blue smoke and a few coughs but no go.one truck sized 100ah battery flat. fresh battery connected.roasted the glow plugs and put a blow torch to the air intake. coughed and spluttered and fired up. horrible smoke for a minute or so then cleared and ran smoothly.

all subsequent starts are perfect.10 secs on the glowplugs and a 2 sec burst on the starter and she starts and runs perfectly regardless of time left idle or air temp etc.hmmm i thought bit strange.didnt give it much more brain power due to other concerns.

next up the lister LT1. on first inspection the engine turned fine but had no compression. quickly ascertained i had a leaky exhaust valve. removed the head and it was coke city to the point the exhaust valve could not fully close. removed valves and cleaned out the head thouroghly.air cleaner was a real mess.it was ex concrete mixer so i think it may have been breathing its own exhaust gases. reground valves.no seat damage. reinstalled head and rebuilt the engine.no wear ridge was detected on the cylinder and the bottom end was sound.apart from the "oil" ....more like tar which was removed and fresh oil added for the start.

surprise surprise. sod all compression.no smoke.no go.added some oil to the cold start aid (little plunger and cup that adds a few ml of oil to the induction manifold to aid starting in cold climates). some help but still the same.

day two.having rested sore arm(crank start) had another go.cranked for 3 hours , added oil , heat , the works. no go. no real increase in compression.some smoke though. hmmm ....i've seen this before methinks.gave up on day two due to near heart attack from excessive cranking.

day three. noticed compression had came up loads from day two for no apparant reason. added a shot of oil , spun like hell , dropped the decompressor and away she goes. unbelievable crud ejected from the pipe. blue/black muck for about 5 minutes and ran like a dog. splutering , missing. 10 minutes of running and exhaust is nearly clear. little blue smoke. shutdown and added engine flush. fired up first swing. shutdown after 20mins and drained the "oil". more crud and lot of solid matter. refilled with high quality fresh oil and restarted. about an hour later all smoke gone and engine running sweetly. all subsequent starts are easy.fires on first compression stroke with only a little black smoke on startup.

sorry for the life story but i cant figure out how these two engines could be such a pain to startup at first but now fire no problem. I guess the rings may have been to blame but cant see how.i''d appreciate any input.thanks in advance.
regards,
Jack

GuyFawkes

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Re: diesel engine compression
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2006, 07:02:50 PM »
Back in the day we'd change the cylinder head on old cars, whack a gasket in, don't worry about stripping the replacement head if it looked ok, often as not it wouldn't fire on the starter or handle if it was old enough, so stick it in 3rd and tow it, always worked.

When rebuilding an engine from scratch always assemble EVERYTHING with liberal amounts of fresh oil or you will have the same problem.

Brand new rebore, new piston, new rings and new valves and new ground seats in the head assembled dry, will achieve two things.

1/ cause massive wear on all parts

2/ flatten your starting battery in short order

compression dry like this will be, to use a technical term, "bugger all"

Anything left standing for several months will dry out like this, and any condensation formed diurnally through open valves or breathers just makes it worse......

ALWAYS oil anything that has been left stood, eg add oil through plug hole or injector hole, then crank once with plug / injector still out, then leave to sit 24 hours.

A teaspoon full of oil is too much, one or two squirts from an oil can per cylinder, tops, add too much oil and you get hydraulic damage.

"oil" means heavy weight engine oil, NOTHING lighter.

Anything light enough to detonate inside the ring spaces is early death for the engine, so everything that comes out of a spray can is verboten, as is diesel in a petrol car, unless you like broken rings and scored bores and even lower compression.

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Remember, ALL engine lose or leak some compression, no seal is perfect, but, the faster the engine is cranking, the less the leaks.

A lazy starter that gives 45 crank rpm may not be enough to start, spot 24 volts on a 12 volt starter and crank at 75 rpm and away she goes.

Adding oil does the same thing, reduces the leakage per stroke

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Cold engine also has more leakage than a hot one, coefficient of thermal expansion etc

worb bores, esp torque reaction wear (ovality) also does this...

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hence the old diesel adage

"if it starts easy from cold, there ain't much wrong with it"

never buy a warm engine, like, never buy a car at night or in the rain, same deal.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

jackbauer

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Re: diesel engine compression
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2006, 08:00:21 PM »
Guy thanks for the info. agree totally about oiling everything on a rebuild etc. the thing i have trouble understanding is how after the initial diffcult start , both engines now start perfectly from cold (or hot) everytime with no rough running or smoke etc. I did oil prime both engines before and during the start attempts.

xyzer

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Re: diesel engine compression
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2006, 08:26:00 PM »
I would say all of the oil through the years of being idle has found the lowest part of the engine. Just squirting oil will not get to all of the rings right away. After you have run the engines the oil has made its way to rings from splash inside the piston to the piston rings giving you a much better compression ratio.
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jackbauer

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Re: diesel engine compression
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2006, 08:33:43 PM »
xyzer makes sense when you think about it. just found it strange at the time:)

rmchambers

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Re: diesel engine compression
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2006, 10:28:54 PM »
Guy, the info you provide is handy.  My grandad's pickup had a starting handle but I was never "boy" enough to turn it over.  It was a Morris minor pickup.

Congrats on the 1000'th post too

Robert

mobile_bob

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Re: diesel engine compression
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2006, 12:16:55 AM »
here is another tip for the rusty stuck engine

should you find an engine that is seized from rust, the common thing to do is soak it in oil, diesel, wd40 and all sorts of stuff.

i learned this one a long time ago and it works better than anything i ever tried, that being water!

just fill the jug with water and let it sit overnight, the rust will soften and all you to carefully work the piston up and down till it is free.

the only engine i know of the instructs you not to prelube the piston and rings on a rebuild is a 2 stroke detroit, the reason
being that most folks cannot get a sufficient load onto the engine quick enough to allow the rings to seat.
a detroit that has been oiled on assembly and allowed to run idle or no load for as little as 20 minutes will glaze the cylinders, and  forever more use oil and pump it out every crack and cranny.

sort of like the warning of never running a new camshaft at idle speeds for the first 20 minutes, but of course we lube them.

personally i always lubed my detroits, but i also put them under load within the first 10 minutes of being started.

just more info for those that are interested

btw,,, welcome back GuyF,,, been awhile,,,, had a baby yet?

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info