Author Topic: Ideal running temp  (Read 6656 times)

SCOTT

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Ideal running temp
« on: December 21, 2006, 02:55:02 AM »
I would like to gather info on the IDEALrunning temp for a lister type engine. 

It seems that the most common operating temp is somewhere between 190-200f  I wonder if that is because the parts (t-stats) are readily available in this range or this is actually the ideal temp range.

I would expect the engine to run more efficiently at a higher temp. 

How much efficiency is gained, is there a linear relationship between operating temp and efficiency?
 At what point do we reach the point of diminishing returns?
At what temp do we begin to worry about damaging the engine?
If the operating temp is increased to a certain temperature, will the timing need to be changed due to higher temp promoting combustion earlier in the cycle?

All opinions are welcomed and opinions backed up by experience, anecdotal evidence and or hard numbers are greatly appreciated.  I am most interested in the why part of this question.

Best regards
Scott
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Stan

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Re: Ideal running temp
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2006, 02:59:17 AM »
I'm planning on a 195deg thermostat for mine.  Yes they run much more efficiently when under load and when up to temp.  You had to ask for all the numbers didn't you?
Stan

aqmxv

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Re: Ideal running temp
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2006, 03:24:21 AM »
I don't have any listeroid-specific numbers yet (hopefully soon - all the pieces are in the garage).  The theory is pretty simple:  Higher water jacket temperatures offer three advantages:

1) they encourage boiling water and light distillates out of the oil
2) they reduce the running viscosity of the oil
3) they improve the completeness of combustion of fuel, and can therefore improve fuel efficiency.

cf: this paper as a typical example http://www.ae-plus.com/Journals/Powertrain%20-%20Review%20of%20engine%20cooling%20technologies.pdf (pdf).

Possible disadvantages include: changing clearances of moving parts, possibly approaching structural limits of head and piston material, possible lubricant breakdown, and increased production of oxides of nitrogen (NOx)

For their part, Lister makes it clear in the operating manual that a hot CS is a happy CS.  They were assuming nothing but water in the jacket and no pressurization, so "hot" would have to be assumed to be in the range of 180-205 F.

Given the low-stress design, I expect that you can go a lot above the boiling point of water with a listeroid before badness ensues.  How much more efficiency you might get is open to question, but as long as the oil is thick enough to lubricate the rod bearing properly, I suspect that frictional losses would decrease, resulting in a small gain in efficiency.  Of course, those of us with sleeved cylinders have to use a waterless coolant to go above the boiling point of water because a pressurized jacket is probably not a good idea.

One of the items on my list of things to do is to try running the evans waterless coolant above 200 F and see what happens.  Before that, however, I plan on trying a thermal barrier coating on the comet chamber, piston top, valve heads, and combustion chamber face.
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biobill

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Re: Ideal running temp
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2006, 03:43:41 AM »
Quote from: aqmxv
I plan on trying a thermal barrier coating on the comet chamber, piston top, valve heads, and combustion chamber face
Not to drag the thread off course, but how were you going to do that?                 Bill
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SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Ideal running temp
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2006, 05:04:10 PM »
If Evans coolant boils at 375 degrees, then one could possibly run the listeroid up near that temp to find out if the engine runs better.
You would want an oil that could take the abuse, probably a full synthetic.
The liner O rings might be at risk.
Could be other factors as well.
Injection timing has already been addressed.
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SCOTT

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Re: Ideal running temp
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2006, 11:27:45 PM »
Sipchief /aqmxv
Thanks for the links I think you are right, the 2 "O" rings on the liner are the most vulnerable and would not appreciate temps that are too high.   

On the other hand they are in direct contact with the liner on one side which has got to be well over 200f if the coolant water is 200f.

The Evans coolant is not for the budget constrained at $32/gallon.

I think it is best to keep the temp at 220f or lower for the first few hundred hours and establish a good base line, then I will experiment with higher temps.


Best regards
Scott
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mobile_bob

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Re: Ideal running temp
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2006, 02:58:56 AM »
generally speaking the higher the temps the more efficient the engine, and the longer the engine will last!

as for a pressurized system, the 2 ring design should be able to handle 7 to 10 psi, for higher temps tho
we probably need to change out the indian rubber for a silicone based oring.

as for going to much above 210 or so, i would question the return on risk factor here, if the coolant cavitates (develops air bubbles, pockets)
u run the risk of a cracked head.  how prone to cracking are indian heads, i don't know, they might take alot more than 210F with some cavitation.

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aqmxv

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Re: Ideal running temp
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2006, 05:02:28 AM »
Quote from: aqmxv
I plan on trying a thermal barrier coating on the comet chamber, piston top, valve heads, and combustion chamber face
Not to drag the thread off course, but how were you going to do that?                 Bill
Well, the stuf is sprayed with powdercoat equipment and is then cured in an oven.  There's really not much to it.  The principle is simple - it's a ceramic coating that reflects heat back into the combustion chamber.  Results:  coated components run cooler and the chamber gets hotter.  SI engines have to have the ignition timing tweaked to cope with the shorter temeprature rise time, but everybody gets more power and efficiency out of it. 

Since I don't build five engines a year, I am going to take it to a local coatings shop and have them do it.  It has become a pretty common thing for race engines.  I suspect that the only reason engine OEMs don't use it is because of durability concerns.  For my purposes, having to redo the coating every few hundred heat cycles won't be a big deal...

Links:

http://www.mrs.org/s_mrs/sec_subscribe.asp?CID=2504&DID=135940&action=detail  paper abstract talking about use of this in diesels
http://www.thermaltechcoatings.com/products.htm  one popular manufacturer
http://www.swaintech.com/store.asp?pid=10296  another manufacturer
http://www.hpcoatings.com/ and another manufacturer
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Jim Mc

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Re: Ideal running temp
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2006, 01:26:49 PM »
[...the only reason engine OEMs don't use it is because of durability concerns.  For my purposes, having to redo the coating every few hundred heat cycles won't be a big deal...

As the coating is sloughing off over a few hundred hours, aren't little bits of it going to act as abrasives, wearing the cylinder, rings, valves, etc.?


phaedrus

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Re: Ideal running temp
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2006, 03:38:43 PM »
Coating has occured to me, but saturating intake air with a greenhouse gas such as water vapor will achieve much the same result as much of the heat loss internal to the burn is radiant in the IR spectrum (radiant path to jacket wall), to which the gas, such as WV, is opaque, thus retaining the heat in the gas envelope. The evaporation of, for example, WV adds to the volumetric efficiency as well. Avoiding entrained droplets of unevaporated liquid minimizes efficiency losses due to phase change in combustion. Propane too is a greenhouse gas as well as a burn-inhancer, and the ideal seems to be a mixture of propane and WV in the intake stream.
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