Author Topic: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!  (Read 71970 times)

rcavictim

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #105 on: September 29, 2006, 06:10:37 AM »
I'm looking at net-metering here in Ontario too.  Now, I'm not going out to do this because I think I can save a ton of money.  I need to buy a unit because it gets cold in Ottawa in the Winter ( so I bought a SOM).  I don't trust Hydro-one we are out of power all the time

I have a source for 55 Gallons of Hydrolic fluid a week.  I have also another 55 gallons of WMO a week free.  So I have fuel, I have a Generator, why not turn the meter back to zero?



What happened, did you fall asleep on the repeat key? :D

You ain`t kidding it gets cold in Ottawa. Just as cold as in Yellowknife sometimes.  I was with the NRC, Herzberg Institute of Astrophysics in the late 80`s/early 90`s before the recent global warming thing got a grip.  I remember neg 35 neg 40 C.  Also spent time in the Western Arctic including winters in Yellowknife.  Saw Neg 40, neg 45 F there too back in the 70`s.

As far as backfeeding hydro?  You want the liability?  Hey, whatever turns your meter.  ;D
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VegErator

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #106 on: September 29, 2006, 08:07:36 PM »
Scott,

I have a Powerline, (Anand) 10/1 that I purchased from Larry Jones in Gville, FL. So far it seems like a clean machine. I am going to team it up with a 7.5 KW ST that I have purchased from Mike Montieth . I am now building a base. My plan is to have it set up for backup power when I move to FL sometime next year.

I am also very interested in induction motor on-grid power cogeneration. I saw your post in:
Lister Engine Forum>Lister Engines>Listeroid Engines>Need Lister Selection Advice
   
http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=1098.0

I also looked at your post history, interesting to see the evolution of an idea.

My concept is to do a waste vegtable oil fueled cogeneration system. It will consist of an on-grid home power subsitution/augmentation induction motor generator along with heat recovery to warm a holding tank which will be pre-heated water for domestic hot water heater.

I plan to get a 7-10 HP induction motor to physically switch out with the ST head when the grid is up (most of the time hopefully).

My question to you is what safety and automatic shutoffs (for the lister and the connection to the grid) etc. did you implement in your system in case your lister runs out of fuel or otherwise quits or the grid goes down? Did you remove the capacitors from the induction motors?

I have also read all of WWIProps's posts and it sounds like he uses a magnetic starter relay and removal of caps (capstration) as his only safety system. He also mentions a "reverse power relay", anyone know about this?  It seems like WWIProps's name is Scott also, weird.

I plan to slow or stop the grid meter. I don't think I can reverse it, it seems that Florida will only allow net metering with solar.

Any other input welcome.

Jim

t19

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #107 on: September 30, 2006, 12:38:24 AM »
I got -40 C for a week last year!!

They have a program and I'd be nuts to let it pass me by
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SCOTT

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #108 on: September 30, 2006, 02:11:26 AM »


......I plan to get a 7-10 HP induction motor to physically switch out with the ST head when the grid is up (most of the time hopefully).

......My question to you is what safety and automatic shutoffs (for the lister and the connection to the grid) etc. did you implement in your system in case your lister runs out of fuel or otherwise quits or the grid goes down? Did you remove the capacitors from the induction motors?


.......I plan to slow or stop the grid meter. I don't think I can reverse it, it seems that Florida will only allow net metering with solar.

Jim
In your post you say that you can only net meter in Fl with solar, if this is the case, you probably don't want to try the induction motor route.  The utility will not allow such an interconnection.  The only allowable interconnection I was able to find for Fl was for PV.  It appears the only way you would be able to do this is without the utility knowing which is unlikely. 

Assuming you can do this above board the protective functions you would need are determined by the utility
Mine requires:
o/u voltage
o/u frequency
anti islanding protection
I am sure there were others but I don't remember off hand. 

The Beckwith electric 3410a is an approved grid intertie relay, http://www.beckwithelectric.com/relays/m3410/SP/M-3410A-SP-01%20(9-04)%20screen.pdf 
It has all the protective functions my utility requires.  One of those function is a directional power sensor  this will disconnect your motor if power is being consumed vs generated as when your engine runs out of fuel.

Some say that all that is needed is a magnetic starter, because of the nature of an induction motor, it has to have power from the grid in order to operate.  Yes you can build a capacitor bank but in normal circumstances it requires grid power.  What really matters is what your utility requires, and in your case this seems to be a moot point because they dont allow this type of interconnection.  There may be ways around this but at first glance it does not like you can do it.

Scott
net metering with a 6/1 in Connecticut
12/1
6/1

LowGear

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #109 on: October 07, 2006, 04:07:34 AM »
Here's the link to Hawaiian Electric Company, Inc. (HELCO)

http://www.heco.com/CDA/default/0,1999,TCID=0&LCID=0&CCID=7246&CTYP=ARTC,00.html

Now if the Listeroid charging system that you keep your PV batteries topped off happens to accidently bleed some extra power down the meter's throat "What can a guy do?" 

I can't believe that someone would do any of this without a disconnect system that automatically gets you off the grid the moment it goes down - Hawaii being a third world leads to this kind of problem more than most people can continue to joke about.  Insurance companies really like illegal stuff as it can give them an out.  Remember when we didn't do stuff like this because it was immoral?

Notice Helco doesn't buy back power, but allow you to spin the meter backwards or help slow it down as I is my dream.

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Flydoctor

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TEXAS: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #110 on: December 14, 2006, 06:06:24 AM »
Fineally a topic a Newbie can contribute to:

I am in Houston, Texas.  I contacted my master electricty provider, they offer "net-metering" which is spinning your power meter backwards to remove time (charges) on our meter.  Since we are deregulated here in Texas, its up to my power company I have chosen to either buy power or not.  Some due, some don't.  I don't really care...I am not trying to make money.  ;-)

My goal:  I allready run my very nice 7.3 diesel Excuursion on Waste Vegtable Oil, it works great.  But my supplier makes 200-300 gallons a week!  Thats allot of catfish they fry!  So I decided to get the long wanted generator back up system, then found listers, then decided to "tie in" and reduce my bills as well as help the environment buy burning used oil.

The master  power company said this:  The application form is for all types and sizes of generators, including solar and wind power.  In the application form, you can specify the generator type and the switch system you create.  The requirement on the switch system is that it complies with PUC Rule 25.212 Section C.  If you use inverters with UL 1741 certification, it will comply with the requirements.  Additionally, if you want to have battery backups, the inverter must be certified with UL1745, then it is designed to meet the requirements in PUC Rule 25.212 (attached).   In the application, I will need to know if you plan to sell power.  If you plan to sell power, we have to change the meter.  You will also need to make arrangements with an energy provider to purchase your power.  CenterPoint Energy does not buy or sell power.   If you do not want to sell power, then we will check the existing meter to make sure it is not prevented from spinning in the reverse direction, for net metering.[/i] [/i]

Basically, the power you are sending back to the meter, thus spinning it backwards, must be automatically shut off should a power outage happen.  (So the workers fixing the lines won't feel your powwr, so to speak.)  So I need a switch that complies with PUC Rule 25.212 Section C.  Thats easy...

Now:  I want the run the generator just enough to spin my meter backwards and "zero out the power" each month.

Questions:
1.  at the peak of '05 and '06,August, I have been using close to 4,500KW hours/month.   Roughly 150 KW per day and 6.25KW per hour.  (This does not of course show the spikes when my dual a\c units and other large appliances kick on.)  I have been told peak usage will be in the 12KW range, in these peak times, and that a 24\2 15KW genset will be the ideal gen set for this application.

Q:  Do you think a 24/2 15kw is adequate?

2.  Since my oil supply is huge and free, could I not get a 30KW genset and send MORE power back when I run, with double the size generator, so I can spin meter back faster, thus only running 1/2 the time? 

Q: Is my logic correct?  I would rather run only a day or two a week.  Also, as a insurance that my neighbor would not complain, I could run his home in a hurricane!  This would keep him from being annoyed??!!  (i only have one neighbor)

3.  A lister 24/2 with a 15KW, turn-key is $5200.  A  30KW with all shut off functions is only $4500.  Its also silenced. 

Q:  Wouldn't I be better off with a biggie, run it 1/2 the time?  Is less money, quiet, safe and cheaper.

Sample:  http://cgi.ebay.com/30KW-DIESEL-GENERATOR-SET-PRIME-POWER-480-277-VOLT_W0QQitemZ110035087637QQihZ001QQcategoryZ106437QQcmdZViewItem

Any thoughs or comments are appreciated!

A Texas Newbie

P.S. Seeking Texas Lister friends!

Flydoctor

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #111 on: December 14, 2006, 06:21:07 AM »

rcavictim

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #112 on: December 14, 2006, 06:53:24 AM »
Flydoc,

First note the pictures of that China diesel in the ebay auction from Kwik are of a non-turbo driven genset and the auction states a turbo charged DI ingine.  Another point, for your WVO application you want to find an indirect injection engine.  These fare better with alternate fuels.  The 1.5 and 1.6 litre VW Rabbit and Jetta dieses from the 80`s and 90`sl are an example of an IDI engine.  The 1.6`s could be had with a turbocharger.  I have one in a `92 jetta.  I have a 1.5 L NA Rabbit diesel in a DIY power plant that makes up to 10 kW, 3-phase in my shop.

I agree with your thinking to get a larger plant and just run it a day or two banking power in the meter.  Size this as large as you are allowed to back feed the meter.  Where I am I think we are allowed to push up to 50 kW back into the grid from a house (not industrial) connection.  Larger diesels are more efficient and the ones available in the larger sizes are designed for more serious industrial type customers, so are likely built to a higher standard. 

I would be more comfortable buying a industrial sized generating plant with a Perkins, Cummins, or Onan or some western engine in it rather than a China diesel. Isuzu is very good.  Plants like the one you showed appear to  have reliability issues I have read about on the net and a while ago someone told me about two of these in Ontario that were for sale in  `blowed up` condition, mentioned because I was looking for an alternator head.

For this sized proposed operation, forget about playing with hobby Listeroid engines.
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Flydoctor

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #113 on: December 14, 2006, 03:34:01 PM »
Got some bad news this AM after my post....

I fellow helping me found this out:

Ok, I went ahead and called these guys because I wanted to ask a few
questions myself. All is not what it appears. You will need a lot more
equipment than just the relay, it also rrequires a $3500 sychronizer plus
automatic breaker control equipment. Long story short 10 to 12 thousand
dollars just for the intertie equipment. You can do almost the same thing
with the battery and inverter for a 1/3rd of the cost. I am attaching a page
that I got from Bob Schuyler at Beckwithe Electric that has a bunch of
information that will help. Synching up to the grid directly from a
generator is not an easy or cheap task.

Can someone keep my hope alive?

rcavictim

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #114 on: December 14, 2006, 03:44:21 PM »
Got some bad news this AM after my post....

I fellow helping me found this out:

Ok, I went ahead and called these guys because I wanted to ask a few
questions myself. All is not what it appears. You will need a lot more
equipment than just the relay, it also rrequires a $3500 sychronizer plus
automatic breaker control equipment. Long story short 10 to 12 thousand
dollars just for the intertie equipment. You can do almost the same thing
with the battery and inverter for a 1/3rd of the cost. I am attaching a page
that I got from Bob Schuyler at Beckwithe Electric that has a bunch of
information that will help. Synching up to the grid directly from a
generator is not an easy or cheap task.

Can someone keep my hope alive?

Not to fear.  IF you use a conventioanl generating alternator then yes, synchronizing to the mains is necessary to avoid electrical explosions and destroyed equipment.  IF HOWEVER you use a big squirrel cage induction motor as your generator, they are self sychronizing and you won`t need the fancy electrical equipment.  All you will need is a suitable, breaker for overcurrent protection and probably (for code) a large suitable disconnect switch.

Nice thing about using a induction generator, even if the diesel is still spinning it, if the mains go down there is NO POWER being generated.  It is self failsafe.

I have recently seen a large diesel plant on ebay being sold as a waste oil burning genset with induction generator designed to do one thing only, backfeed the grid.  It was probably just right for your needs.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2006, 03:46:45 PM by rcavictim »
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

Jim Mc

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #115 on: December 15, 2006, 01:39:33 AM »

Nice thing about using a induction generator, even if the diesel is still spinning it, if the mains go down there is NO POWER being generated.  It is self failsafe.


I wouldn't agree 100% with that.  I'd be really curious to see what the utility thinks.  As a practical matter, an induction generator usually will not 'self generate'.   BUT, if it is operating into a heavily capacitive load, it will self generate.  So, it may not be 'fail-safe' enough for the utility.

Now, when that happens, the voltage and frequency wil begin to deviate from 240V/60Hz, so it is relatively easy for a control system to catch, and subsequently disconnect.  But I'm not aware of any low cost control systems for this.

So, give your loacal utility engineering folks a ring and see what their outlook on induction cogeneration is.  I'm like to hear.

Also, beware that an induction generator, while possibly easing the interconnect issues, is not able to operate as a back-up generator.




Dwright

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #116 on: December 18, 2006, 06:55:15 PM »
It sounds to me like there is a general consensus that the best and safest way to do grid-interconnect/net metering in residential co-gen with the listers is the induction motor as generator route. What would be most helpfull to the growth of the community at this point would be documentation of the process, and the development of a general specification that could be used (with modifications state by state or utility by utility) for this type of setup in the utility application process. If anyone who is going through this process, or has gone through it, would forward any and all documentation to me, I would be happy to compile it into a kind of report. I may even be able to get some students to do research with utilities on what they need to see for these apps to go through.

I think one or two approvals in a state could have an avalanche effect. The biggest obstacle seems to be the lack of models and precedents to help guide applicants to success. There has been a fair amount of publicity recently in Ohio regarding net metering and why it is flopping.

rcavictim

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #117 on: December 19, 2006, 12:06:39 AM »
Dwright,

Let`s be clear on one thing.  Flydoctor was not intending to sell Lister generated electricity back to the utility.  Frankly anyone who wants to sell Lister generated electricity back to the utility hasn`t figured it all out yet IMO.

At the cost of the Lister/oid engine and whatever you use as an induction generator, maintenance for the physical plant and whatever your free fuel costs you (picking it up, fuel for the pickup vehicle and maintenance for that truck, etc, plus your time to pick it up and then your time to process it at home, filters or whatever also cost money, etc.  At the end of the day you cannot make more electricity at the wholesale rate they will pay you to even pay for the delivery charges they apply to your account.  If I spin my meter backwards for a whole day at 2.5 kW per hour and use no electricity myself on my connection, at the end of the day I will owe Ontario Hydro some money.

To make any money selling power to the utility you need a power plant that makes a lot more power than a puny little Lister/oid can.  If you want to pay off your equipment investment then YOU ARE GONNA HAVE TO MAKE MONEY.

Flydoctor is thinking correctly. If I understand him correctly his intentions are to get a big diesel generator that can supply as much power into the grid as his connection allows.  At that rate of backwards power delivery one can actually get a credit on one`s power bill.  Turns out the `big` diesel generator to do this hardly costs much more than the Lister setup, fuel efficiency is better with the big plant and maintenance and running around scavenging free fuel will be basically the same amount of work.

Even if the utility paid you cash for your 2.5 kW per hour, say 4 cents X 2.5 = 10 cents per hour x 24 hours = $2.40 per day, that wouldn`t cover your liability insurance needed to feed power back onto the utility line.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

Dwright

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #118 on: December 19, 2006, 05:27:33 PM »
rcavictim,

Sorry for the confusion. I was responding to the movement of the thread generally, not neccessarily to flydoctor's business idea. I will sum up the assumptions I am making to conclude that residential co-gen on WVO in areas with net-metering can be practical, if perhaps not particularly profitable. The basic reason is that I am talking specifically about a well-designed combined heat and power setup, and a disel engine's profile on this score fits pretty well with residential needs.

First, I am only considering back-spinning, not "selling" at the wholesale rate. In my area (semi-rural Ohio) 500-600 kwh usage costs about $70 per month. That is an avoided cost of $840 per year. Oil for the heating season for a 2000sqft house is running around $1800 a year. So at these rates, our total avoided yearly cost can be around $2,500 per year. Figuring on a 5 year depreciation period, that's $12,500, and that's avoided cost (which is more valuable than earned income due to taxes.) I think we can set up a relatively spiffy, relatively quiet, and relatively efficient, 6/1 cogen system that can last over this period of time for less than $7,000, including maintenance parts. This would probably include heat storage, ideally perhaps a poly heat tank designed to enclose the engine to accomplish muffling and heat leveling and transfer.

Granted, there is probably going to be more than $6,000 worth of labor thrown into this enterprise, in design, building, haggling with the utility, collecting and filtering oil or making biodiesel, fiddling with the engine, and yaking on the internet. And insurance is not something for which I accounted. Do you have any figures on that? In any event, most people's serious hobbies "cost" them this much in labor in addition to costing additional money. There is a lot of subjective value in this equation that will work out very differently for different people, not just due to circumstance, but personality. But on the basis I gave, I think that at the least the economics are not a disincentive.

Based on what I have seen, the major disincentive for the types of folks inclined to this kind of thing is the hassle and uncertainty of trying to get through the utility red tape. That is why I think it might be worth it to spend some effort sharing information there and seeing where that leads.

BTW, stricktly on the economics, I'm sure firing WVO in a boiler is a better deal than the lister, but for my money that's just dead boring, and it's not going to motivate me to scrounge around dumpsters. Most people will tell you that if you are going to get all greasy, there ought to be some rythmic thumping involved!

Flydoctor

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #119 on: December 19, 2006, 07:53:27 PM »
I have made much progress on my plans.

(On a side note:  I recently converted my truck to WVO.  I had to drive to Oaklahoma this weekend and the 650 mile trip from Houston cost me literally $29 in diesel for start up, purges and the last bit of miledge on diesel whan I ran out of oil on the return home.  Pretty cool...)

So, in a short response, I think I am getting a 30HP lister, 20 KW gen set because my state allows 50kw of backfeed for net-metering.  A 20KW gen set will make about 15-17kw of cointinous I believe.  I use about 4500KW a month, or about 6.25kw an hour a day on a peak August hot day. 

Therefore I seek to spin the meter in reverse...I do not intend to make money, but rather seek to "zero" out the bill each month. I have a 4800 square foot home with duel air and plan on adding the pool this spring.  This will make my bill in Houston at 16.8 cents per, a whopping $950-1050 per month.  Thats right, a month.  (I have three real offices in here and two secretaries with computers, copy machines etc.)  We are at about $800/month now without the pool and equiptment!

I have secured two locations that make about 300 gallons a week of pure golden fuel, I am currentky picking it up in my NEV (neighborhood electronic vehicle, pictures later) that runs on pure electricity which will be charged on the battery back ups...so maintenance, pick up etc. are also free (for the most part). 

My filtering and gatering system in my NEV took me literally 38 minutes last sunday for 50 gallons INTO my tank...time is money true, but I do it when I have down time like a weekend and i get bored sitting around.  Helping the environment not with standing...Its all a good thing and and in "all" will save me $17-20k next year alone.  (car fuel, pool heeating from the exhaust, and home ecectricity fuel)

I have a non-profit foundation to help kids who have been injured or illness, www.fantasykids.com, and I will create a fundraising situation where a resturant will donate their oil to a represenative of FK, that will help kids and the environment, the rep will send a tokan like $0.05 cents a gallon to FK, 100 gallons $5 bux, which will be a tax deduction to the oil gatherer since hes paying a non-profit for ther oil.  This will make the resturant LOVE donating the oil far longer, this will let an oil gatherer maintain a good source far longer (people in Houston are now being paid for their oil) and it makes a win /win/ win for all invilved.

Trust me, I will make this happen....it will save money and be fun...now I am off to pick up my used 400 gallon steal tub fore the resturant to pour their hot oil into!

Flydoctor from Houston