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Author Topic: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!  (Read 71978 times)

Stevels

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Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« on: January 13, 2006, 03:11:30 AM »
Hi fellow Listeroidheads,

I hope I am not missing a thread about this subject elsewhere, but I can not seem to find it so I thought I would start a new thread

I live in an urban area and I am ON-Grid.

My urban dwelling friend just installed a solar photovoltaic system on his house and is currently selling back excess electricity he produces to the electric company in the form of reversing his power meter and gaining credits. 

I am told that under no circumstances, would he ever actually receive a check from the power company, but he would pay into the system in terms of credits, and on cloudy days, use those credits he may have earned on sunny days and essentially get power for free.

I called my local electric company to ask about the details of this, since I am only a short way away from producing power from my Listeroid running on free, waste Vegetable  oil.  When I spoke to the power company about this, National Grid thought I was speaking Venetian, and had two heads -- and recommend high doses of Lithium to cure my mental illness!

Does anyone know for sure, what is involved for me to hook up my Listeroid based 8KW generator into my house, and have any excess electricity go back to the grid and credit my account?  No one here seems to know anything about this, and can only advise me on how to use my generator only when if I were to disconnect from the grid.  This is not my intention.  I live in grid land!  I want to use the grid as my “battery”

I am not an electrician, but I am sure there is a fairly simple answer.  I have read Utterpower’s explanation of syncing the phase of a ST head to the grid, but this all seems like voodoo, and does not really answer my question of how I can get National Grid to eat my excess power made from used won-ton oil!!
Are there any electrically savvy --  rebellious folks out there that can guide me in the right direction?  Do I need a special box? Meter? Hire a vegetarian electrician? How can I do this,  It is too cool not to do!

Again, I want to generate electricity with my Listeroid on free waste fuel -- while on the main power grid, and what I don’t actually use, I want to automatically sell back to the grid. 

Any one there who can guide me on this profoundly cool venure?

Thanks for any advice!! 
Stevels
Converting everything I own to run on WVO

n2toh

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2006, 03:56:23 AM »
From what I have read you need a special automatic disconnect drvice. The device needs to disconnect the generator from the grid when the voltage or frequency falls out of spec, usualy between 10 and 120 cycles.

If you can find such a device please let me know as I have been unable to find them.
About 60 years is all it takes to make science fiction a reality.

quinnf

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2006, 06:23:08 AM »
Steve,

What you're talking about is commonly referred to as "net metering." 

I don't mean to dampen your enthusiasm, but it's not that easy to do, especially if you live in a city.  Before the utility is going to even talk to you about doing what you're contemplating, your installation is going to have to be properly engineered, permitted, installed and in$pected.  And I doubt you would ever get a permit to burn anything in ANY internal combustion engine, even biodiesel or WVO, within your city limits in a residential area.  Going "guerilla" places you in a very dangerous position regarding liability, should, for example, a utility worker be injured or killed clearing a downed line that should have been de-energized.  Imagine what your friendly homeowner's insurance claims adjuster would say, should you have an accident or fire on your property as the result of installing a non-permitted generator.  George qualified what he was talking about for a reason. 

I've read that federal law mandates that utilities make provision to buy back power from approved (probably solar, wind, microhydro) point installations.  Home Power magazine is an EXCELLENT reference for you and contains articles about individuals that are generating their own power.  However, many utilities aren't enthusiastic about it, and don't make the process easy or inexpensive, and going guerilla carries formidable risks. 

Check out http://www.homepower.com/

Quinn


« Last Edit: January 13, 2006, 06:27:51 AM by quinnf »

kpgv

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2006, 06:25:54 AM »
My intention to try to "push back" through the meter, and "situation" (~urban, WVO, Pissed at Xcel) are similar to yours.
I have found so-called "Grid Tie" inverters, and etc. on the net, but they cost more than a 20+ HP Lister gen-set.
(Still better than photovoltaic. I'm fairly sure I could add a second story to my house for less $ than a "properly" sized solar/battery/grid tie inverter system). The CD has info about this, but like you, there isn't enough detail for me to feel confident messing with it. I also think that there might be a small liability issue involved with the dissemination of a "how-to" on the subject...Does anyone out there know of a good book that describes how to do this in layman's terms ???
Another thing I have wondered about is what governs the output of your genny when you are "grid tied" ???
Say you're running a 6/1 ST-5 set with 1K load from the house. How do you "govern" how much more juice you generate and (hopefully) send back. ??? (Assume the 60hz sync part is handled).
One other thing I have learned about this, is that you need some kind of automatic disconnect between the "grid" and the genny so that if the "grid" goes dead while you're "pushing back", you automatically disconnect from the grid and isolate your output to your "house". Otherwise, you might ZAP my cool B.C. Hydro lineman Brother-in-law.

Kevin

kpgv

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2006, 06:36:37 AM »
Jeez Quinn, You answered my questions before I could even type them ::) I'm a Hunt-n-Pecker ;D
I kinda thought it might be too much trouble.
In town, if I decide to do this, I need to find discrete "in-house" uses for what I produce.
I'm thinking that's probably really good advice ;D

Kevin
 

quinnf

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2006, 06:51:10 AM »
Sorry, Kevin.  I took typing in Jr. High school (1969) because that was where the best looking girls were.   8)

There's a lot of enthusiasm on this board, and I hate it when I see people drop a wet towel on someone else, but if you're going to do this you've just gotta do it right.  There's too much to lose if you cut corners.  That's why as long as I live in town my genset is going to remain technically "portable,"  emergency use only, and before I make the last connection, it's going to have been blessed by the electrical inspector.  When/if I retire to my off-grid castle out in the sticks where nobody else wants to live, and stop shaving, cutting my hair (and mebbe even bathing more than once a week if I need to), well, then that's perhaps another story.

Quinn
« Last Edit: January 13, 2006, 06:53:05 AM by quinnf »

Procrustes

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2006, 07:31:08 AM »

WWIProps

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2006, 12:26:40 PM »
If you want to sell power back onto the grid use an induction motor run above its synchronous speed.  I was able to do it legally under Maine's Net Metering law for renewable fuels.  I run WVO in 6/1.

I use a 5hp Weg ODP single phase induction motor as my generator.  I removed the start circuit , the start capacitor and run capacitor from the connections. The two wires hook into a magnetic starter relay, a 40 amp breaker in my panel and out to the utility grid.  If your grid power is three phase just get a three phase induction motor which is generally cheaper and does not have capacitors or start circuits.

The magnetic starter is so if the grid power dies, my generator shuts down and does not restart or try to send power to the grid on its own. 

For a backup generator system you could come up with capacitor banks to provide excitation when the grid is disconnected.  (Haven't tried that one yet)  Or just use a second small generator hooked up in parallel with your lister.

I run a 6/1 that I set at 25 amps (1800-1835 rpm George had the pulley made). Frequency and volts follow the utility.  My system is 230volts single phase so it produces 4.0kw at this setting.  The more the engine breaks in the more I have been able to produce. 

Volts and frequency are aligned with the grid power all the time, amps are varied with engine speed.  One control item you may want to work on is a reverse power relay.  That way if your lister shuts down the induction generator won't become an induction motor again and keep spinning your lister.

If you don't get a good response from the utility try the Public Utility Commission.

Good luck!

Scott

quinnf

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2006, 03:03:00 PM »
Procrustes,

I hadn't read that post.  As you pointed out, you're going to take an efficiency hit running that way, but at least that's a way to get your foot in the door and go "legit." 

I like the 0.54/kWh for equipment made in WA.  That smells like a lobbyist at work, probably hired by the ONLY manufacturer in the state!  I still wonder how long the break even point is. 

The main point of my comments was that you can't ignore the liability aspect, and that is best done, regardless of whether it's right or wrong, by going through the process and getting the permits, inspections, detections, defections and see-lections, to quote Woody Guthrie in the Alice's Restaurant Masacree. 

Quinn

quinnf

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2006, 03:23:19 PM »
Scott,

Does Maine have any problem with the fact that your generating electricity via an infernal combusion engine?  Renewable energy usually means solar, wind, or hydro.  I'm in California and the local smog Nazis are very well entrenched in the bureaucracy.

Quinn

kpgv

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2006, 03:25:52 PM »
Quinn,
I don't look at it as a "wet towel".
I consider having access to the experience and knowledge and opinions from the folks on this board to be a HUGE benefit to me for planing how to do this project properly, and I really appreciate the input and help!!!


Kevin

Procrustes

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2006, 05:08:09 PM »
As you pointed out, you're going to take an efficiency hit running that way, but at least that's a way to get your foot in the door and go "legit." 

I've got a consultant coming out soon, so I'll know more shortly.  However he said over the phone that the utility will know exactly how much my system produces as designed and expected, so I'd have to answer for any extra power.  I'm not trying to cheat them actually.  It's unclear whether or not WVO generation is kosher.  Once I was looking at new Lister Petters, and the salesman I talked to said that the Lister Petter genset based on the LPW3 is not certified as a standby generator.  I can't remember what the regulation is called, but it may mean that I can't tell my utility about whatever generator I end up with.

Regarding efficiency, I've come to think that the smaller engine with batteries might be more efficient overall for me.  I average under half a kWh per hour, so a 12/2 could supply my needs running a couple of days per month.  A 12/2 would work well if I was sure I could sell power to the utiltiy, and it would make a good standby.  A 6/1 is a limited standby, but it will make more sense if I can't sell power to the utiity.  Batteries and inverters provide UPS.

At least here in King County, WA, there are three types of electric meters: regular, ratcheting, and net metering.  Regular will spin backwards, but you're not supposed to do so.  Ratcheting simply won't spin backwards.  Net metering is digital and displays the incoming and outgoing power for the life of the system.  You need net metering around here to go legit.

I like the 0.54/kWh for equipment made in WA.  That smells like a lobbyist at work, probably hired by the ONLY manufacturer in the state!  I still wonder how long the break even point is. 

Yeah, ain't that something?  It turns out Xantrex is a WA manufacturer.  If I use their inverter I would get 18 rather than 12 cents per kWh.  It may well be a lobbying thing.  However, there aren't any PV panel manufacturers here.  I'll bet you there will be soon though.

The main point of my comments was that you can't ignore the liability aspect, and that is best done, regardless of whether it's right or wrong, by going through the process and getting the permits, inspections, detections, defections and see-lections, to quote Woody Guthrie in the Alice's Restaurant Masacree. 

Exactly.  Cavalier grid-tie can ruin equipment, void your homeowner policy, and kill a lineman.

I'm guessing there's not a lot of sympathy for Arlo Guthrie here...

quinnf

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2006, 05:38:27 PM »
You're right, it was Arlo, not Woody.

"He said, 'Kid, we found your name on an envelope at the bottom of a half-a-ton of garbage.  Just wanted to know if you had any information about it.'" 
I said, 'Yessir, Officer Obie, I cannot tell a lie.  I put that envelope under that garbage.'"

I've replaced most of the lights at home with compact fluorescents, and we don't have A/C or electric heat/dryer/stove, so my 6/1 handles the load just fine as long as I don't do anything stupid like fire up my welder.

Let us know what the Dude says.

Quinn

WWIProps

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2006, 06:31:22 PM »
I passed the inspection in Maine with no problem.  The only caveat is no dino fuel allowed.

Regards,
Scott

quinnf

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Re: Selling Listeroid made electricity back to the power grid?!
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2006, 08:06:22 PM »
Kosher is good.  What kind of inspector?  Was he speaking for the utility only or about the installation as a whole?  I'd hate to get hung up on a local ordinance.