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Author Topic: Out-of-box experiences, or "why bother?"  (Read 5100 times)

Guy_Incognito

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Out-of-box experiences, or "why bother?"
« on: December 17, 2006, 01:28:54 AM »
A simple question, fraught with the possibility of a heated flamewar  ;) -

I'm curious about how the "clean room rebuild" vs "ignore it until it breaks" arguments stack up against each other.

What do indian buyers of listeroids do when they get their new engine? Do they just get their engine off the back of the cart, plonk it on a base, add oil/fuel and crank it up, to then run for as long as it can? When some part lets go, do they just go get a replacement part, hammer it in and start it back up?

It seems that the general consensus here is that everything should be stripped, cleaned and meticulously blueprinted before even considering putting the engine into use. But the more .... ahem, "budget-conscious" indian buyer would no doubt be pretty relaxed about the need for doing that. Most engine manufacturers there seem to be pretty relaxed about that kind of thing too.

To be the devils advocate here - a week's wages for me would nearly get me another complete listeroid delivered to my door. No doubt in india they'd need to work a few more weeks to be able to get a replacement engine, but again, they seem to be pretty relaxed about it. Is it really worth the hassle actually doing anything apart from safety stuff initially (eg flywheel retention, fuel leaks) and simply fix bits if and when they break?

So does anyone have any idea of average listeroid life in its native indian environment?

MeanListerGreen

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Re: Out-of-box experiences, or "why bother?"
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2006, 02:01:54 AM »
I have a suspicion that Indian engines are probably better then the ones they ship to the"Yanks".  I think they probably send us the scrapped out ones. They get the money send the junk and being on different continents protects them.  Since we have no alternative we accept that and rebuild a newly manufactured engine.  I think running one without rebuild is risky because something could go wrong and do serious or unrepairable damage.   It's safer to prevent that from happening.  It's kind of hard to say how a rebuilt one would compare to a stock one because the quality varies so widely.  It would be neat just to fire one up out of the crate and see how long it runs until it fails.
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biobill

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Re: Out-of-box experiences, or "why bother?"
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2006, 02:47:42 AM »
   My engines are workers. The latest Metro 6/1 got the following service before going on line.
1) Torque headnuts
2) Adjust valves and align rockers
3) Improve finish on pushrod ball ends (looked like they were hand ground on a course wheel)
4) Check crankcase for sand and dirt
5) Inspect cam and tappets
6) Check big end nuts
7) Check (with mirror) bore and piston
8) Lube valvetrain, cam bushing, big end, gov links, fill crankcase.
9) Clear paint from crankcase breather and tappets
10) Check external fasteners
11) Bleed the injector pump and let her rip

      Engine has been fine. I did adjust the piston/head clearance at a later date. I'm sure if I tore into it deeper that I could find things to improve. Maybe this winter if time permits. But for now, it's doing what it needs to do and seems like it will keep doing it for a while.
                                                               Bill
Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
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Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
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rcavictim

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Re: Out-of-box experiences, or "why bother?"
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2006, 09:39:01 AM »
I think the answer depends on what you expect out of your Indian Listeroid.  If you wanted a hobby engine that will not accumulate many run hours and don`t mind frequent partial tear downs to get at and replace worn or broken bits, then go ahead and run it as received.

If you are putting it into service like off-grid prime power where reliability and return on investment is important to you, take that sucker completely apart, clean the shit out of it with mechanical scrapers, wire brushes, sand blaster, etc. flush completely with a high pressure air driven solvent gun, then check the casting with rubbing fingers to see if any areas continue to shed grit and clean some more, wash away all the oil, paint seal the cleaned insides of the cast block with Rustoleum enamel or Glyptal motor varnish, bake the paint hard with radiant heaters, carefully reassemble with hospital cleanliness coatring all running surfaces with Lubriplate 105 white motor assembly grease (also filling the solvent washed TRB`s) and keen precision to all mechanical details, correcting issues as found.

Install a big neodemium catch magnet or two in the bottom of the sump.  Put clean oil in the reassembled engine when ready and run for half an hour to an hour if all seems well, then open the sump and examine the oil for grit and the magnet for released ferrous metal particles.  Wash out the sump with clean diesel fuel, remove, clean and re-install the magnets, put new oil in and run that baby for longer this time, maybe 5 hours. Make sure the engine reaches operating temperature for most of this run.  Repeat drain and flush, inspect and clean the catch magnets again.

A fair bit of iron filings is to be expected on the first magnet inspection, by the second time and five run hours on the second load of new oil the metal beard on the magnet should be less.  If it is more, you have a problem that has to be found immediately.  How much iron filings are indicative of trouble on second run?  Half a sewing thimble full would be IMO.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2006, 10:24:25 AM by rcavictim »
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dieselgman

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Re: Out-of-box experiences, or "why bother?"
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2006, 10:04:54 AM »
I have a suspicion that Indian engines are probably better then the ones they ship to the"Yanks".  I think they probably send us the scrapped out ones. They get the money send the junk and being on different continents protects them.  Since we have no alternative we accept that and rebuild a newly manufactured engine.  I think running one without rebuild is risky because something could go wrong and do serious or unrepairable damage.   It's safer to prevent that from happening.  It's kind of hard to say how a rebuilt one would compare to a stock one because the quality varies so widely.  It would be neat just to fire one up out of the crate and see how long it runs until it fails.

I was told the opposite by a friend of mine in the business in India. They will sell various quality engines, the run of the mill cheapest is normal for consumption in the Indian market and the higher quality stuff is available for export to those willing to pay the extra $$ for it. They actually refer to OEM and non-OEM parts as well, to differentiate between quality levels.

Gary
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Tom

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Re: Out-of-box experiences, or "why bother?"
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2006, 08:24:20 PM »
What a scary thought, the export engines are the "good" ones.  :o
Tom
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xyzer

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Re: Out-of-box experiences, or "why bother?"
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2006, 10:51:43 PM »
I have bought 3 - 6/1's. The first 2 were Vidhatas one for me and one for my dad (he has everything now!) I did a full tear down on mine because I wanted to balance all the rotating mass. I found nothing that would have required a tear down. All of the areas I was warned of were easy fixes without pulling the crank. Non-rotating rough lifters, and, sand. After I had a good idea what we were dealing with I suggested to my dad to pull the lifters and resurface them then  disconnect the rod pull the rod bearings then push the piston up out of the way and he did a solvent wash of the crankcase with one of those siphon type air nozzels. It did a good job of flushing the nooks and crannys. My powersolutions I went through the same teardown process to get it dynamicly balanced. I found with this one it needed nothing done to it. The lifters are as delivered and zero sand. I could have put the head on it and been done. Unforunatly the only way you can balance one is to dissamble it! The most important thing you can do is clean it! I pimped mine because I don't have a use for it.....damn! Now I have 2 to do nothing! It is a goal of mine to get them to run smooth without a ton-o-crete. Knowing what I know now I would uncrate one clean the crancase out, check my rod bearings, lifters, idler backlash, add a dipper and go for it! If it is a bouncer I have learned this can be corrected by trial and error.
Dave 
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Guy_Incognito

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Re: Out-of-box experiences, or "why bother?"
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2006, 09:21:35 AM »
All these replies have been pretty good really, I was expecting something a bit more heated.  ;D

I wonder just how long an engine would run out of a crate. You'd think that an Indian buyer wouldn't be stripping a new engine he'd just bought. Maybe a magnet, scrape a few handfuls of sand from the sump, that's about it. Without actually following an Indian buyer home and seeing what they do with them, I guess it's all a bit of speculation.

I will reluctantly mention that in an email from my supplier he said that he wouldn't have any hesitation in running an engine out-of-crate, and he uses his 24/7 for power. He seems to have a lot of faith... but I notice he has a comprehensive list of spares for sale on his website   ;)

biobill

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Re: Out-of-box experiences, or "why bother?"
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2006, 04:05:37 PM »
  Kinda like buying a used engine of any type. If you've got the time and inclination to rebuild it, great. You will know exactly what you've got and and have reasonable expectations for it's service life.

  Or, you can give it a lookover and put it to work.

  I think it has more to do with the personality type and lifestyle of the owner than anything else. Problems are interesting, so that's what gets talked about. Maybe we need a "Still running fine" topic to get a better idea of the actual reliability of these things. We've seen and heard about absolutely horrible examples but I don't think that they are the norm. First world manufacturing has it's lemons too. When dealing with a design as durable as the CS series, even a poor rendition can operate for a long time. I spent many years of my life building engines where "close enough"... wasn't, but with these things you have a lot more wiggle room.  When things need rebuilding, I'll do it to my standards. In the meantime though both engines are running fine.

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Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw

danalinscott

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Re: Out-of-box experiences, or "why bother?"
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2006, 08:05:55 PM »
Newbie (to the forum) here,

If I only needed a genset for occasional standby power I would give it a quick once over, do an initial run in, and call it good.
But the listeriods I have run 24/7...ok..techincally more like 7200/365. And although they run on unconventional fuels I really DO hope to get a decade of service from them...even though we amortized them at 3 years in the ROI.

I was unhappy with the fact that they had been test run before they were shipped. Mainly becasue I saw some scratches on the bore I would rather were not  there...and knew that there were other unseen brothers and sisters of these scratches. I hate having a shiny unscratched truck..but really like a nice shiny internallypolished engine.
I know...weird.

I really would have preferred assembling and test running those listeroids myself.  I might not be as meticulous as some of the forum members ...but I DO think it is worthwhile make sure that no "extra" casting sand is present, surfaces that should be smooth ARE smooth, and parts designed to rotate DO rotate....as a minimum. I modified them slightly anyway for Co-Gen and low oil shutdown so the effrot of cleaning and inspecting them iseems minimal.

And I am sure I will learn in the next few weeks months of other simple mods that I SHOULD have done.....from helpful forum members.  ;D

I think that there are minimum pre run procedures which are smart for any new Liseroid owner to take the time to do.
And there is a second level of engine prep appropriate for those that hope to get 3-5 years of trouble free "constant duty" from them.
And a third level for those that hope for a decade of steady use between repairs/pre-emptive teardowns.

And then there are folks who simply enjoy the "zen" of engine dissasembly/reassembly.

We each have to decide which option will lead to the greatest level of future happiness.
Having these "to-do" lists is really very handy. But as for a "right answer" on this quesiton....I think there are three to six of those.
Dana
danalinscott@yahoo.com