Author Topic: How to autostart a CS 6/1?  (Read 21649 times)

jtodd

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Re: How to autostart a CS 6/1?
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2007, 08:32:13 PM »
buffdownunder:

I like to experiment.  12/2, 28/2, 6/1, etc.  - what are the fuel consumption values, vibration, heat, and other factors - I'd like to perform trials with various versions of the "large" components (engine and driven load) and switching them easily seems like a reasonable thing to me.  Also, I don't know what my KWh loading will be throughout time (talking years here) - I probably will become more or less efficient as time goes on, so putting in a larger or smaller engine with the same starting/cooling/control rig is a desirable goal to me, and I'd like to pay for this work (hours and $) only once when I can do it all at the same time.   I don't expect that other people have quite the same goals, so what I'm doing and how I'm doing it are not optimal for more simple or inexpensive configurations that would be typical.

adhall:

I had seriously considered flexplate attachment to the genset pulley, and even mocked it up.  However, there were two problems with it: the first was that I could not switch out to a hydraulic or water pump quickly, and the other problem is... er... I forget what the other problem was.  I know there were two reasons I didn't do it that way, though you are correct it probably is a more simple method of attachment.  I'm not sure if it was a tactical or strategic issue.  I believe the flexplate was larger than the flywheel/pulley, so that part presented no problem and would have worked.  I think that there were a few minor issues with mounting, but they were not overwhelming (not enough room on my ST-10 input shaft to take a second SK-style bushing, therefore requring direct mounting of flex plate to the pulley, which would require journaling of the pulley, which was too big a job for any lathe I have access to, but that is a fairly minor issue that could be solved with a few $ and a better machine shop.)  Hmm... I'll look again this weekend when I'm back working on the project and see if I remember what it was that made me choose to use the other flywheel and a different belt - I don't think it was as simple as the journaling issue, but maybe...

Now, that being said, I've yet to really try out this whole rig in earnest and see where it breaks down.  If the starter assembly just doesn't cut it after some abuse, I probably will go to a setup where the flexplate is attached to the generator pulley.

Lastly: GM starters are available in clockwise or counter-clockwise rotation, so instead of moving the generator around it's easier to just get a starter with the right rotation.  Apparently some marine engines spin the other direction from normal engines, so the CCW stuff is typically found at marine supply shops.  I found my starter at SEA Manufacturing in Florida (http://stores.ebay.com/SEA-MANUFACTURING-CO  +1-386-668-1425) and they were quite cooperative and helpful.

JT

adhall

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Re: How to autostart a CS 6/1?
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2007, 09:00:04 PM »
JT:

Thanks for sharing your insights into this. I have been wondering for a long time whether it was feasible to mount a starter and flexplate on the generator head. Unfortunately, I don't have an ST head on hand (yet) to test the concept. I look forward to learning what you find out.

Best regards,
Andy Hall
JKSon 6/1, 5 kW ST Head, 1992 Dodge RAM Cummins 5.9L Turbodiesel, 2001 VW TDI 1.9L Turbodiesel, 2006 Jeep CRD Turbodiesel, Yanmar FX22D Diesel Tractor

asavage

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Re: How to autostart a CS 6/1?
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2007, 04:18:03 AM »
. . .  it's more efficient to run DC directly rather than convert from AC.
How do you think an alternator works?  It generates 3-phase AC (via a rotating field, in automotive alternators) and runs the output of the delta (or wye) stator windings through six diodes (rectifiers).

I don't know as this is more or less efficient that running a battery charger from the main generator's output.
Regards,
Al S.

oldnslow

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Re: How to autostart a CS 6/1?
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2007, 07:02:03 PM »
The original SOM had a DC motor built into the gen head that was energized for starting, but impractical to build into our ST heads as discussed in other threads.

I heard it suggested but has anyone actually tried one of those motor-generators from a cub-cadet or similar tractor as a starter? I was thinking of incorporating it into the main serpentine belt or adding an additional pulley to the ST head.

Is that a dumb idea? Any thoughts?
Mistakes are the cost of tuition.

oldnslow

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Re: How to autostart a CS 6/1?
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2007, 07:02:38 PM »
The original SOM had a DC motor built into the gen head that was energized for starting, but impractical to build into our ST heads as discussed in other threads.

I heard it suggested but has anyone actually tried one of those motor-generators from a cub-cadet or similar tractor as a starter? I was thinking of incorporating it into the main serpentine belt or adding an additional pulley to the ST head.

Is that a dumb idea? Any thoughts?
Mistakes are the cost of tuition.

jtodd

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Re: How to autostart a CS 6/1?
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2007, 07:46:47 PM »
The original SOM had a DC motor built into the gen head that was energized for starting, but impractical to build into our ST heads as discussed in other threads.

I heard it suggested but has anyone actually tried one of those motor-generators from a cub-cadet or similar tractor as a starter? I was thinking of incorporating it into the main serpentine belt or adding an additional pulley to the ST head.

Is that a dumb idea? Any thoughts?


Not a dumb idea.  I already tried it, though.  I got the flywheel to spin up (took about 5 seconds to reach max speed) but when I released the exhaust valve hold to the "start" position, the compression in the cylinder bounced the flywheels back, so I didn't get a compression cycle to complete.  The little motor just wasn't powerful enough, and my requirements are even more serious - I didn't want to have to build a compression release mechanism, so whatever system I used would have to work with the valves closed.  (The current, more complex starter system in my pictures does spin the whole engine with the valves closed.)

That being said, I had a fairly small pulley on the starter/generator, so maybe a bigger pulley would have done better by allowing the flywheels to get up to a faster speed before I released the valve.  In other words, my test used the strength of the motor to a large degree to cause the compression cycle, because the small pulley didn't allow the flywheels to rotate very quickly even at max speed of the S/G.  Perhaps letting momentum build up in the flywheels would have had more success - use a "weaker" pulley configuration that allowed for a faster spin, and let it run for 15-20 seconds to build up some rotational energy before attempting a compression valve release and hopefully starting the engine.  I'm not convinced that a larger pulley would have worked, though - the S/G was wheezing pretty hard to get the flywheels turning even with the small pulley, but I'm not an electric engine expert.  The S/G that I used for my test was from a golf cart, and was a "14 amp" model  - no word on what the HP was coming out of the shaft in starter mode, and nobody seemed to have specs on that.  I looked at a LOT of starter-generators, and they all seem to be very poorly documented.

More experiments are in order, I think - I certainly wasn't exhaustive in my tests, because I only had one pulley for the S/G unit.  I still think that a combined starter/generator would be ideal for most rigs for charging a small 12v system and providing the ability to have some back-saving effort reduction during starting.  However, I think I've found my solution so it's up to someone else to test those theories...


adhall:

Re: my comments on Jan 10:  I looked at the generator again, and I recall now the second reason that I didn't mount the flex plate directly on the ST generator pulley.  It won't fit.  The pulley and/or flex plate is significantly smaller than the diameter of the generator housing, so mounting a starter pointed inboard would not work - the flex plate would be a smaller diameter than the face of the generator, therefore the starter could not mount in that dimension.  I could turn the starter around so it hung out away (in opposition to) the generator, but then it would be hanging out past the edge of my chassis and would then have to spin counterclockwise.  This might still work OK for others, but for my particular situation it was not optimal.

JT

adhall

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Re: How to autostart a CS 6/1?
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2007, 08:12:10 PM »
JT:

Thanks for the feedback. I couldn't tell how big the end bell on the ST head was from the dimensions I had available.

Just for my information, what wattage ST Head are you working with?

Best regards,
Andy Hall
JKSon 6/1, 5 kW ST Head, 1992 Dodge RAM Cummins 5.9L Turbodiesel, 2001 VW TDI 1.9L Turbodiesel, 2006 Jeep CRD Turbodiesel, Yanmar FX22D Diesel Tractor

jtodd

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Re: How to autostart a CS 6/1?
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2007, 03:30:23 AM »
JT:

Thanks for the feedback. I couldn't tell how big the end bell on the ST head was from the dimensions I had available.

Just for my information, what wattage ST Head are you working with?

Best regards,
Andy Hall

I'm using an ST-10 head, so 10 kilowatts maximum output theoretically. 

In case this question is in reference to my comments on flexplate and starter mounting:  I'm not sure if the numeric suffix on the generator head is going to make a lot of difference, even with a smaller head.  The ST-5 versus the ST-10 doesn't seem to be dramatically smaller, according to the L2 column on the last page of the dimensional specs here:

http://www.utterpower.com/ST_manual.pdf

JT

adhall

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Re: How to autostart a CS 6/1?
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2007, 04:04:49 PM »
JT:

Thanks for the link.

I had already looked at the ST manual and could not come up with an exact value for the diameter of the end bell. The closest dimensions I could find (in the table on last page) are "H" which should be a little more than the end bell radius and "L2" which appears to be slightly more than the end bell diameter. I was hoping that the actual diameter might be somewhat smaller, but clearly no such luck.

For my own genset project, I would still like to try to drive the generator pulley with the starter motor. In fact, I am considering attaching a flywheel to the generator pulley instead of a flexplate so as to further stabilize the rotating speed of the generator. So one option here is to find something with a bigger starter ring.

According to a web site I found, the starter ring on the old Ford 300 CI 6 cylinder truck engine is roughly 15-1/2" on the OD. That looks like it might be big enough for the 5 kW ST head I am thinking of using. Of course, that all depends on the diameter of the corresponding Ford starter motor.

Best regards,
Andy Hall
JKSon 6/1, 5 kW ST Head, 1992 Dodge RAM Cummins 5.9L Turbodiesel, 2001 VW TDI 1.9L Turbodiesel, 2006 Jeep CRD Turbodiesel, Yanmar FX22D Diesel Tractor

oldnslow

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Re: How to autostart a CS 6/1?
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2007, 04:20:50 PM »
Appreciate the info on the motor-gen. The small pulley gave you more torque but not enough rpm/momentum.

Did you try increasing the voltage momentarily? It would heat the thing up but may work for short intervals. Two small 12V batteries with a series start-circuit and a parallel charge-circuit. Wonder how long it would stand a shot of 24volts.....

If I ever try it I will post. Thanks JT.
Mistakes are the cost of tuition.

jtodd

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Re: How to autostart a CS 6/1?
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2007, 12:57:09 AM »
For whatever it's worth, here's the more-or-less complete starter/generator assembly that will start the engine and also will generate 12vdc for the control systems.  The alternator functions as a belt tightening system, using the turnbuckle shown, so I don't have to adjust belt tension by moving components around on milled slots or any of the normal tensioning methods.  As of yet, I haven't tried this under load, so I don't know if it actually works at 650RPM, but in theory it sounds good.  :-)   If not, I'll just try something else.  My only worries are that there won't be enough grip on the flexplate-mounted pulley to spin the engine, but I've tried it and it does seem to spin it (with a tiny bit of slippage) even with both compression releases on my 12/2 de-activated (meaning: full compression.)  We'll know in another month or two when I'm done with secondary systems and try to fire it up on the new base. 

Also visible is the fuel rack shutoff solenoid that should be able to close the rack.  I'll need a bigger spring, but it has plenty of arm length and almost enough "ooomph" even with the engine not running.  As soon as I lose 12v on the solenoid, the electromagnet at the bottom of the solenoid goes dead, the spring-loaded arm is released, and pushes up against the rack.  I'll post part numbers and whatnot when I'm done with the assembly, but if anyone wants 'em I can give specifics on the solenoid and electrical control system.

http://www.loligo.com/listeroid/pictures/3.html

JT

OffGrid

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Re: How to autostart a CS 6/1?
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2007, 04:45:23 AM »
Jt

Thanks for posting your pictures. Very Nice Work! 
Listeroid 6/1
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Chaz

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Re: How to autostart a CS 6/1?
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2007, 11:10:32 PM »
FWIW, here's a picture of a 3-1 with an automotive starter motor hooked up to a magnetic clutch (from an automotive AC unit, I think)
http://www.thebarrier.net/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=5&pos=1
1950 Lister CS 3 1/2 - 1

wirenutrob

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Re: How to autostart a CS 6/1?
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2007, 07:07:22 AM »
Electric Starter-

I am currently building mine for my 20/2 engine and I used a chevy flywheel and a starter to match it (Goes to a 350 Small block)  I am having the flywheel mounted with the sk bushing so it fits on the crank shaft and the stock starter uses 12v. The flywheel and starter and bushing were 85.00.
The machineing of the collar to hold the flywheel to the sk bushing will be 75.00. I used 3/8 plate steel for my mounting brackets & 7/16  grade 5 bolts, 30.00. So for about 200.00 I get to start my engine without cranking it.... YES...Worth Every Penny.  Ok , I now need to put in the alternator, that is another 38. + belt and battery = about 125.00 .  Not bad for about 350.00.  I'll post pic's soon.
Rob

jtodd

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Re: How to autostart a CS 6/1?
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2007, 01:11:03 PM »
FWIW, here's a picture of a 3-1 with an automotive starter motor hooked up to a magnetic clutch (from an automotive AC unit, I think)
http://www.thebarrier.net/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=5&pos=1

That's pretty interesting.  I'm wondering if there's enough strength in that system to start a 16/2.  I don't know anything about A/C clutches but I know that a starter puts out a lot of torque.  Also, are A/C clutches a reasonable thing to have running "24/7"?  Right now, I've got the starter/flywheel combination mounted on a bearing-supported shaft, which seems to be fairly reasonable to assume is good for 100% duty cycle.  However, the simplicity of the A/C clutch setup is interesting.  Does it easily turn over the 3/1?  Has anyone else here on the boards seen it turning something bigger?

JT