Author Topic: engine mounting v 4.0  (Read 96407 times)

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: engine mounting v 4.0
« Reply #165 on: January 07, 2007, 11:18:31 PM »
A thought about designing a mount.
Perhaps it would be easier to find out the speeds which are the smoothest and the speeds the engine hops the worst before designing the mount?
Although it is agreed to be unsafe to run the engine on the pallet, perhaps a wood frame that is more substantial could be attached, and the engine started at a slow speed. Then using a digital tachomenter, slowly increase the speed and write down in your engine logbook (you do have one don't you?) the speeds that are smoothest, roughest, cause the engine to hop up and down, twist, rock, etc.
I only suggest this because when I was de-rating my twin from 1000 RPM, I bought a 8.5" pulley from George B. After I put it on I started the engine while watching the cycles on the Kill-A-Watt. So the Kill-A-Watt became my tachometer, and I slowly reduced the engine speed toward 60 Hz. When the engine got to about 940 RPM it was running so sweet! But as I slowed it farther toward the (about) 735 RPM it runs for 60 Hz, it got to vibrating again, but not bad. As it settled in to 735, it was better. Actually it's quite acceptable now.
So my point is that each engine has a sweet spot(s), and probably a range of acceptable speeds as well.
If your knew what they were you would be able to decide if the engine really needs a massive concrete plynth, or could be mounted in the back of a small utilty trailer and taken on camping trips.  ;)
Scott E
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

mobile_bob

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Re: engine mounting v 4.0
« Reply #166 on: January 08, 2007, 12:28:01 AM »
Scott:

no self respecting research scientist at "LIT" would be without his engine log book, would he? :)

i think you are right on in determining the sweet spot for your engine and then designing around that spot, sort of like
working with nature rather than against it.

listers certainly have a nature all of there own, and each a slightly different nature.

might not be a bad place to work out dynamic balance from as well, would probably require less weight and less work to
really get one running very sweetly.

*side note, how bout them seahawks?? yessssss

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

danalinscott

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Re: engine mounting v 4.0
« Reply #167 on: January 08, 2007, 02:45:37 AM »
Quote
You must have a smooth runner before you even think you know what mounts you need.

I think this has been one of the basic parameters from early on in this discussion.

If you have a "jumper" that cannot be balanced by some pretty basic and inexpensive procedures you better bold it down to a large bolock of concrete. But it is also quite possible that "a jumper" is stressing a lot of components that a a well balaced engine would not be and so may not be able to provide the low maintenance longevity that those who buy these engines to put to work desire.

Balance would seem to be eqully important no matter how you mount the engine.
Using a large block of concrete simply allows you tro ignore the problem that imbalcane may be presenting in a less obvious manner.   Why not also then ignore any of  the other problems that may lead to shortened life and increased maintence as well ...rather than going to the trouble fo dissasembly and cleaning, etc. that is reccomended now.
Dana
danalinscott@yahoo.com

xyzer

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Re: engine mounting v 4.0
« Reply #168 on: January 08, 2007, 05:54:16 AM »
Dan.....
Thanks for the advice! I'll look into that as soon as I can! I'm sure it will save me lots of time and troubles!
Dave
Vidhata 6/1 portable
Power Solutions portable 6/1
Z482 KUBOTA

mobile_bob

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Re: engine mounting v 4.0
« Reply #169 on: January 10, 2007, 02:15:02 AM »
this thread was started by me, and seemed a fitting place to roll my tally to 1000 posts.

we have butted heads on this topic, one and all in some manner or another.

overall i think it was worth the effort, and perhaps all of us learned something from it
even if it wasn't "the" way to properly mount an engine.

i knew from experience that this was going to be a hotly debated topic, but i had no idea as to how
hot it would be. it also turned out to be the most posted thread to date.. i guess that is pretty cool in its own right.


bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

hotater

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Re: engine mounting v 4.0
« Reply #170 on: January 10, 2007, 02:22:23 AM »
Welcome to the mile stone of 1K. 

 That and some cash might get you coffee somewhere ....but HERE you can receive the thanks and appreciation of all those you've helped with well thought out and interesting post.

  Nothing beats experience in the long run. ;)
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Doug

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Re: engine mounting v 4.0
« Reply #171 on: January 10, 2007, 02:36:51 AM »
Post more you two....

People are going to think I talk to much....

mkdutchman

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Re: engine mounting v 4.0
« Reply #172 on: January 10, 2007, 06:01:17 PM »
This should maybe be in some other thread, but it does sort of pertain to this one.....

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7073987820618265400

Doug

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Re: engine mounting v 4.0
« Reply #173 on: January 10, 2007, 07:41:02 PM »
Man that is smooth.....

I mentioned in an email quite some time ago I was willing to pay extra if PEC could send rotating assemblies to a ballancing facility for work....

Atul rescently sent me an email that he was talking too and showing pictures I sent to an outside party about machining isues.

So....

Has PEC started farming out work the see can be done better than in house?

Does this mean that ballance and tollerence has become an issue?

Has the golden age of Indian Lister clones begun or is this just smoke blown up our collective back sides with a one off engine?

Doug

Andre Blanchard

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Re: engine mounting v 4.0
« Reply #174 on: January 10, 2007, 09:13:10 PM »
The thing is that engine is just idling.  Watch close at the beginning when it is doing full power, power strokes, load that engine up to its full power rating and that glass of water is not going to stay put very long.
______________
Andre' B

Doug

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Re: engine mounting v 4.0
« Reply #175 on: January 10, 2007, 10:13:35 PM »
Its a start ain't it?

Some engines can't even run at idle like this.
Some like Gus ( also a Powerline product ) aren't even fit to run at all.....

Doug

snail

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Re: engine mounting v 4.0
« Reply #176 on: January 11, 2007, 12:13:35 AM »
Andre,
Quote
load that engine up to its full power rating and that glass of water is not going to stay put very long.
That is absolutely true.Trouble is,I don't know of any way of balancing out the torque (reaction) pulses within the engine.Ok, maybe arrange a pair of singles with counter rotating cranks if your'e really keen! :D
Surely a well balanced engine at low rack opening (or spun by an external power source) is as good as you can get?
Ever sat on a BMW or a Guzzi annd blipped the throttle?
If there is a way, I'd love to know as I have a motor in pieces and will give it a go.
This isn't intended as criticism, I'll be the first to state that there are gaping holes in my knowledge. :D

Cheers,

Brian

mobile_bob

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Re: engine mounting v 4.0
« Reply #177 on: January 11, 2007, 01:34:25 AM »
you will always have the torque and antitorque (countertorque for GuyF :) ) to contend with, but i still maintain that
this action can be mitigated by the position of the mounting system

the balance will remain the same regardless of load, but the torque action and reaction will change with variances in loading

i wish i had a single to work this theory out and prove out the concept

with the base mounting system, this torque action (and reaction) will cause the base to move as if the engine has balance issues
when (if balanced to begin with) it does not.

i would dearly love to see that engine in the film mounted to a cradle system and running at load, it would expect it to quiver a bit
but certainly no jumping up and down.

my business partner has a 10/1, maybe i can talk him out of it, or talk him into a teardown and balance, followed by a cradle mount system
just to see the end result.

the other interesting thing to note in the film is the engine does not seem to move in a piroette fashion, which tells me they have done a very
nice job of balancing that engine.

we now know what is possible as far as making a listeroid behave and sit still, it certainly would appear that the engine would not need anywhere near a ton of
crete to do a very nice job of running just fine, perhaps the 605 lb spec of the 5/1 would be more than sufficient.

i don't see any reason that engine could not be resiliently mounted and run just as long as it would if bolted to a block of stone. the result would be an engine that would not transmit much in the way of objectionable vibrations to anywhere else in the structure.

bob g

bob g
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wrightkiller

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Re: engine mounting v 4.0
« Reply #178 on: January 11, 2007, 01:44:14 AM »
I think it's their 8/1 internal balanced .. with water pump ,on their site  it has holes drilled in the inside of the rim.. if so it's the one they used
n their biodiesel test...



{ I stand corrected It's a 6/1}
« Last Edit: January 15, 2007, 01:11:07 AM by wrightkiller »

tim

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Re: engine mounting v 4.0
« Reply #179 on: January 11, 2007, 02:03:45 AM »
Thats a 6/1 look at the wheels

tim