Puppeteer

Author Topic: You lay out your stall, sit back, watch, wait.  (Read 13066 times)

GuyFawkes

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1184
    • View Profile
    • stuff
You lay out your stall, sit back, watch, wait.
« on: December 09, 2006, 03:43:11 PM »
I do this here, george does it at utterpower, it a pretty common scenario, basically you set out a stall showing off your wares, whether these be real things people can buy from you, goods or services, or ideas that people can buy into, like a good governor linkage design, and then you sit back and watch which bits generate an interest, and what sort of interest.

I lay out my stall with various ideas and titbits of information, I sit back and watch who wanders up, which bits they pick up and analyse, and what further responses they generate.

If I put some really cool and really useful items out on show, and still get no real response, it is obvious that people aren't looking for really cool or useful items, or maybe they are but don't know one when they stub their toe on it.

One such titbit is the hydrogen content of fuel, complete carbonisation is the aim for efficiency, the greater the hydrogen content of the fuel the lower your maximum efficiency is going to be. The more moisture drawn into the engine with the fuel or air charge the lower your maximum efficiency is going to be. I even point out that rudolf diesel, inventor of the diesel engine, started out with dry powdered anthracite, extremely high in carbon, extremely low in hydrogen and moisture. This was not an accidental choice, it is an almost ideal fuel from an efficiency point of view only.

So how many people pick up and examine this item on my stall? nobody.

If, as a stall owner, my main interest or aim was to get items sold, I need new and entirely different stock. For example I could make up a duplex chain and sprocket kit to couple engines to gen heads, or I could make up a megasquirt injection kit for dual fuel running (pump diesel start and idle), or I could make up a start-and-stop-o-matic control kit, and if the price was right I'd sell them.

Or I could set up as a snake oil salesman and cater to the beliefs and wants of the people out there, rare earth magnets to align the fuel molecules and increase combustion efficiency, cogen kits to extract heat from exhaust gases, and so on.

Instead I get people telling me efficiency isn't what it really is, it is in fact making the wife smile, or it is in fact buying a days worth of fuel with 15 minutes labour in the day job, or it is in fact anything else that allows the user to take any one of a million short cuts.

Grease is commonly used to lubricate threads, but if I warn people not to use grease on oxygen tanks bob will pop up and demand formulae to prove that a highly energetic chemical reaction will take place. Wanting to learn something is laudable, refusing to accept anything without proofs is dogma. I suppose I could go out and produce intricate drawings complete with formulae to prove that the easiest way to remove a stubborn bearing race from a shaft is to run a penetrative stick well across it and crack it, but I don't see why I should, I did not demand these proofs, it seemed a possible idea and lo and behold when you try it it works perfectly.

Thing is, I can recall many real world examples where people who were struggling with small pullers were told this, "but I don't have a stick welder" was the response, and so instead of going out and buying / borrowing / hiring a stick welder, they go out and buy / borrow / hire a 40 ton hydraulic puller.

Several hours later when then engine starts slobbering oil out of the damaged new oil seal that was pushed over the riveted by dint of 40 tons of pressure from the puller bearing shaft, this is seen as a new and separate problem, and an indication that the engine itself was "shit".

This is the FUNDAMENTAL problem here, we have people who define efficiency as keeping the wife happy and therefore getting laid that night standing alongside people who understand what efficiency is, and all of them claiming they are after the same thing.

Run your engine inefficiently, fuel wise, and you have a lot more than heat going to waste up the flue, you have excessive heat, excessive chemical reactions and by products, and that ALWAYS leads to a lowering of reliability.

Why do exhaust pipes rust so badly, much faster and worse than anything else in an engine? Because the hydrogen in the fuel or in the moisture drawn in with the fuel is turned into superheated steam in the exhaust, and superheated steam eats iron like acid.

Wow, you wife is happy you managed to start the genny quickly after the power went out, will she be as happy when the exhaust splits and the barking wakes her / kids / neighbours up? will you be as happy when you need drills and stud extractors to do what should have been a 5 minute job?

The irony is we have the very same individuals on the one hand worrying about coking in the head, and on the other hand claiming their definition of efficiency is correct.

The irony is we have the very same individuals on the one hand worrying about getting the most electrical juice out per pound of fuel in, and on the other hand claiming that these things are pretty invariable and inviolate anyway because the formulae says so.

Andre blanchard quite correctly says GF is on about the second law of thermodynamics, some one else says behold our GF translator, while still blatantly proving they do not understand the second law of thermodynamics.

Do you think I did not simply say "second law of thermodynamics" because I am ornery, or because I strongly suspect I might as well have talked about quantum mirroring?

An EFFICIENT engine is one that fully carbonises all its fuel (carbon) while producing the minimum amount of hydrogen or other byproducts such as superheated steam vapour. An EFFICIENT engine therefore has a low exhaust gas temperature, and more important low exhaust gas heat capacity (the two are not the same, 500 degree steam holds a lot of energy, 500 degree carbon monoxide holds little energy), an EFFICIENT engine is therefore going to be extremely INEFFICIENT at simple cogen heat recovery from the exhaust.

If you want simple cogen heat recovery you need an INEFFICIENT engine, which is outputting lots of superheated steam vapour.

If you want complex cogen heat recovery then you need an EFFICIENT engine with EGR (exhaust gas regeneration) or some similar technology.

What we have here are people who want to route exhaust gas through a steam radiator to heat their study, which requires an INEFFICIENT engine to generate the maximum heat from the radiator, but they want to call this efficient, because it is easy, fast, cheap, and within their ability to cobble together.

The efficient engine has fully carbonised fuel, low hydrogen byproducts, low exhaust gas energy, the inefficienct engine may have fully carbonised fuel, but high hydrogen byproducts, high exhaust gas energy.

What works for extracting energy for one type of exhaust will not work for the other.

Turbo diesels work really well with high hydrogen content fuel or damp days, the superheated steam drives the turbine both well and efficiently, as the hydrogen content drops you need to add energy, going from a passive steam turbine to an active gas turbine, with fuel introduced after the the exhaust stage of the prime mover.

The real kicker is EFFICIENT engines last much longer, every last one of the inefficient byproducts works to limit engine longevity and shorten service intervals, from decoking to oil changes to bearing pressures and lives.

A 3kW suitcase generator will use WAY WAY WAY more fuel than a 3kW lister(oid) type generator, the differences will not be 5%, the suitcase generator is INEFFICIENT.

Exhaust gas TEMPERATURE is not the same as exhaust gas ENERGY. A Pound of water holds more energy than a pound of air or a pound of alloy, and a pound of steam blows away a pound of water in energy content.

If we say there are 140,000 btu in a gallon of diesel, and it takes 120,000 btu to make a pound of steam.
(both ballpark figures but they serve to prove the point)
If we say diesel is 85% carbon by weight and 15% hydrogen (not far out) and that a gallon (imperial) of diesel weighs about 8 pounds, we have 1.2 pounds of hydrogen, so if every pound of hydrogen combines with 8 pounds of oxygen to make 9 pounds of water, and no other byproducts containing hydrogen are made (this is of course not the case) there isn't enough energy in the diesel to turn all the water produced by burning the diesel into steam, we will have a small amount of steam, and a large amount of hot water vapour (technically steam is not a vapour, it is a gas, if you can see it it is a vapour, not a gas, a "steaming" bath or kettle produces vapour, not steam, a whistling kettle will produce steam, but an inch away from the whilstle when the "steam" becomes visible it is really the point where the steam condenses back into a vapour)

Any energy that goes into making steam or  hot water vapour (quite apart from the negative chemical effects of this on metals) is not available to power the piston down and produce useful work.

Deliberately doing this reduces cylinder pressures and temperatures, because the energy goes into making hot water vapour or steam rather than hot expanding gas under pressure (the steam component WILL push the piston down somewhat, the vapour component wont add any pressure to the system) and lowering cylinder pressures and temperatures can DRAMATICALLY lower nitrous oxide NOX emissions, which is apparently a "good" thing.

You all know all those california cars with strict emission laws return the best mpg of any car sold in the states, right?

The NOX emissions, paradoxically, are irellevant to the fuel you use, 70% of the air we breathe is Nitrogen, much of the rest is oxygen, just drawing it into a combustion chamber along with fuel is all you need to make NOX, the more efficient and powerful the engine, the more NOX it produces as a result, the answer to this is make the engine less efficient, thus producing less NOX, (different emissions for diffrent fuels, cos different fuels have different hydrogen content, and this is what controls your efficiency and therefore exhaust port emissions) and then add power sapping ancilliaries in the exhaust and intake system to reduce emissions and overall efficiency still further.

You CAN make an engine ___NEARLY___ totally emission free and enviornmentally friendly on hydrocarbon fuel, but you have no net output of useful work, all useful power will be absobed by the system, and nearly because nothing is free with no losses, no frictionless surface and no loss of energy, second law of thermodynamics is the reason you either have efficiency or low emission on an engine, not both.

The hydrogen engine that makes water as a byproduct?

yeah, cept hydrogen ain't a fuel, unlike carbon, you have to liberate it from somewhere, which takes a lot of energy and emissions, and when you burn it unless you are carrying LOX you are still drawing in nitrogen so you still have emissions of NOX to deal with, and BECAUSE it will produce just water vapour and steam BECAUSE there is no carbon in the fuel you get a lot less effective and efficient engine than one that runs on carbon anyway.

but hey, you are all right.

efficiency doesn't matter, your definition of making your wives happy is right, and "green" shit, EPA, peak oil, and everything else is totally unconnected innit.

sure would make for a nice simple life to believe in spoon fed crap like that, our leaders know best because they have our interests at heart, not their own.

our queen deserves respect because she is the queen and has our best interests at heart, she isn't really living on the fat of the robber barons who terrorised and stole lands and property from generations of people and got fat living off the labours of still more generations.

ditto the president, of head of general motors or texaco, they all worked with the sweat off their own brows to amass everything they have, and at no time did they every shit on anyone else along the way.

the real threat to these people have always been the skilled tradesmen and artisans who took pride in their work and knowledge, because sooner or later the ungrateful peons / serfs / subjects / employees / bastards always set up guilds / unions / whatever to protect their interests and their pride in their work and trade, but just like the guilds of old were infiltrated, manipulated and crushed, the unions of our time were infiltrated, manipulated and crushed.

offshoring ain't new, its hundreds of years old, finest italian armour, finest damascus blades, rolls royce can no longer find suitably skilled employees in the uk, so they are outsourcing, and there are no skilled employees in the uk because of outsourcing, killing the unions, bogus subsidised trade deals and generally making sure the population at large were neither educated adequately nor allowed to acquire skills which might make them think they are above their station in life.

You people should go read up on freuds cousin, bernaise, guy who did the worlds fair for GM etc, adviser to presidents and policymakers every since, the man who publicly stated that people were too stupid to be allowed to make their own decisions, but needed "guiding" to make the right decisions, to vote for the right people.

United Fruit, that coined the phrase "Banana republic", a government, a foreign, democratically elected, non marxist / leninist / communist government, was deliberately overthrown, in a campaign orchestrated by bernaise, and nixon went over there and played along the theater with the new puppet government, with cia pilots pretending to be "freedom fighters" bombing the populace, just so United Fruit could continue to exploit the people and country and make massive profits, and ever since then nobody in central america has trusted the states.

Like I say, I set my stall out, you can tell more about people from what items they don't pick up from what items they do.

Were the dinosaurs made extinct 60 million years ago by the impact that made the gulf of mexico, are the carbon dating records correct, are we all made of star stuff, or is the earth only 3000 years ago because someone says the bible says it is thus? I have read the bible cover to cover, it does not say any such thing, instead we are told we must simply accept someone elses interpretation of what the bible says, even though none of them can quote any passage in the bible that quotes any dates anywhere on the timeline claimed.

NOX is "bad" and "carbon emissions" are bad because equally unqualified assholes with an agenda say it is so, and how dare you question them..... lets face it, most people are not educated enough to question them, so they only have to rubbish the few scientists and engineers out there who aren't worried about their funding or who place integrity before tenure.

lorenzos oil wasnt made by bumpkins fucking around with a home chemistry set, it was made by people who studied like buggery and educated themselves will all the text books and thus tracked down a brillant researcher with lab experience who fabricated the thing they had deduced should be possible, but all people get out of it is that some bloke in the street can be smarter than the establishment, COMPLETELY missing the point, the bloke in the street can MAKE HIMSELF smarter than the establishment, but that  is too much like hard work.

So ok bob, I'll be your nigger in the woodpile, feel free to leap to the defence of those who can't be bothered to study the laws of thermodynamics, yet tell us they are working on experiments at home that lead them to believe that they are going to achieve results that would require the overthrowing not only of the laws of thermodynamics but by consequence the entire newtonian physics we know today.

Newtonian physics isn't like democracy, or religion, or love, or anything else, it neither needs nor requires your belief or understanding, it has its own set of laws that existed long before the earth was formed, whether you take that date at 4.5 billion years or 3000 years ago.

You only get to fly if you accept that newtonian physics is 100% correct, and build an airframe as a result of that.

We have gone so far beyond the point where a village could build a ship and then paint eyes on it for gods to watch over them, no knowledge of newtonian physics was required for that.

We communicate via technological devices that simply cannot function unless all these laws are correct, yet we have people using this very medium in ignorance of said laws and claiming that they can find a way around them, because in ignorance of these laws they are not aware that what they say is possible is frankly impossible.

there are few things more hilarious and symptomatic of the frailty of human nature than religious and political websites claiming adherence to beliefs that were they even remotely possible, much less true, they would preclude the existence of said websites and all the technology that underlies them, and their only counter to this simple logic is that you must discard all logic, and have FAITH.

FAITH that there is a God
FAITH that the president is looking out for you and not riding you
FAITH that the laws of thermodynamics do not apply to you

I ain't buying. Nor am I setting out anything like that on my stall.

I'm not telling anyone they can't do the things they say they want to do.
I'm just telling them it won't work, that is in many ways a worse crime.

Fundamentalist Christians and Fundamentalist Moslems all come together in one place, to discredit any scientist or engineer who dares to say that both their belief systems are insupportable, given the observable facts.

--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

mobile_bob

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2940
    • View Profile
Re: You lay out your stall, sit back, watch, wait.
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2006, 04:29:33 PM »
Guy:

this may very well be my last attempt to deal with you,

you speak of efficiency, yet you cannot say shit in less than 500 words

you seem to place yourself on a lofty perch above us mere mortals, as though you are the only one that knows shit from shinola.

you become indignant and evasive when asked to support your arguement or position, some how you think we should just take you
at your word, and to be asked to prove your word is tantamount to questoning your integrity.

i am truely sorry if i offended you , but thats too friggin bad, and by the way i will match my wrench against yours any day of the week on anything
you so choose to pick. i have no doubt in my mechanical ability, as i am sure you have no doubt in yours. so save your little offhand comments re oxygen and oil.

you very well may have the advantage of having been educated in engineering, i have not, in as much as i did not go to school to be trained as an engineer.

where you lost ground with me, and i would think a few more in this group, was over your insistance than
lister only specified teh one ton block of concrete, and that their engines would fail if mounted in any other way.

sure i asked for proof, none came!
i asked for proof of concept, none came
i asked for a formula, and again none came.

hell i set down and worked out the formula myself, and asked you to disprove it
certainly within your means to do so, but as usual , nothing..

i asked you to restate your position on the concrete block dimensions,
nothing again, no comment from you,,, just distance from the subject..

someone i know and respect went to dursley, and went thru the archives
and guess what?  you can mount the friggin engine any way you want to
within reason and have no issues with warranty or failure of components.

but then we are here, with  you on your lofty perch dribbling tidbits of nearly useless stuff.
carbon content of fuel, really?  how many are going to reformulate their fuel? show me one! how bout you?
ballistic's, hmmmm, well when i am in need of knowing how far my 54 caliber hawken will pump out a mini ball i will be sure to ask you.
oh yes, lets not forget coal as a diesel engine fuel, hell guy do you really think you are the only one that reads history? and is anyone going to
powder coal and inject it here? are you?

as for cogeneration, you really show yourself to be somewhat uninformed, you liken this to some overunity, free engergy scheme. if you
don't see the value in it then that is your deficiency.

my reference to a thoreauvian approach to the efficiency question was simply to get people (you) to think outside of themselves, by placing (self) into the
equation. But i guess you don't appreciate the same tidbits being placed in front of you for inspection either, or are just too superior to allow yourself to be
brought down to such a level of being part of anything, rather everything being a part of you.

lets go back to your diatribe on cogeneration, we need an efficient engine for electric production, we need an inefficient engine for heat production.
really? ;duh.... you friggn amaze me with your continued arrogance,,,

#1 we have whatever engine we have, beit a changfa, lister/oid, petter/oid, whatever, and as such 99.999 of us will never affect a 1% change in efficiency of our
engine's, that leaves you to do that and show your wonderful results.

#2 you work with what you have, you measure with what you have, you test with what you have, and you accept what you get,,, period, and yes there will be those
that scream bullshit,,,, but who cares?

#3 if the thing does what you want it to do, then who gives a shit what some cranky old englishman thinks? i know i don't! anyone?

i will check your stall one last time, that is to find one thing

"what is the dimension of the one ton block of concrete?

bob g





otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

CD in BC

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 124
    • View Profile
Re: You lay out your stall, sit back, watch, wait.
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2006, 06:13:57 PM »
Having just found this site a few days ago, I haven't had time to catch up with previous posts.

I will say this however, gentlemen like yourselves who have either a lot of practical experience and/or professional education, and - even more important - that unusual inclination and ability to think outside the box, are the kind of people I consider it a real privilige to listen to. 

So, you disagree at times; not surprising, you're in the same league.   Personally I hope these kinds of debates will continue (in as civil a manner as possible) because I'm sure there are many others who like me, find them very interesting and informative.

The fact that your positions vis a vis 'orthodox theory' vs 'shop floor' appear to be at least sometimes the reverse of what one would expect from your stated backgrounds merely adds to the interest!

So, my point is that others are listening and learning...

meteorscatter

  • Guest
Re: You lay out your stall, sit back, watch, wait.
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2006, 06:21:50 PM »
Quote
 Â  " Wow, you wife is happy you managed to start the genny quickly after the power went out, will she be as happy when the exhaust splits and the barking wakes her / kids / neighbours up? will you be as happy when you need drills and stud extractors to do what should have been a 5 minute job?"

It was meant to lighten things up a bit but I guess you missed that. Look watcha gone and done, now I have to go out and buy drills and stud extractors! For sure that's not gonna make the wife happy!




mobile_bob

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2940
    • View Profile
Re: You lay out your stall, sit back, watch, wait.
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2006, 09:52:27 PM »
Guy:

one more because i am like a dog on a bone :)

"So ok bob, I'll be your nigger in the woodpile, feel free to leap to the defence of those who can't be bothered to study the laws of thermodynamics, yet tell us they are working on experiments at home that lead them to believe that they are going to achieve results that would require the overthrowing not only of the laws of thermodynamics but by consequence the entire newtonian physics we know today. "

i will never and i have never supported anyone or any claim that is beyond sound, proveable, and replicable physic's!
no one here is going to throw off newton, einstein or (fill in your favorite).  i have the chance of winning the lottery twice in a row before that
happens.

but... do i think that everyone needs to be educated to the point of a bachelors degree in engineering as a minimum? no!

do i think that a guy in a garage can make a cogen setup that is 75% efficient? most certainly if he designs properly.
do i think that the same guy can get to 90% overall efficiency? sadly no! but that don't mean it can't happen, just that the odds are
against it.

and in either case, no law's of physic's will be violated.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

GuyFawkes

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1184
    • View Profile
    • stuff
Re: You lay out your stall, sit back, watch, wait.
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2006, 10:49:45 PM »
Guy:

this may very well be my last attempt to deal with you,

you speak of efficiency, yet you cannot say shit in less than 500 words


I can, but it will be listened to less than doing what I do now...
Quote


you seem to place yourself on a lofty perch above us mere mortals, as though you are the only one that knows shit from shinola.


Nope, I have NEVER done that, my self appointed perch is quite low in status, I know I'm not smart enough to overthrow decades of engineering expertise or newtonian physics.
Quote


you become indignant and evasive when asked to support your arguement or position, some how you think we should just take you
at your word, and to be asked to prove your word is tantamount to questoning your integrity.


I want people to think for themselves bob, not take my word or anyone elses, don't just accept the second law of thermodynamics, read it, understand it, apply it to everything in your life and see that it can only be correct, 100% correct.

its the symptom of the age, everyone wants to be just given a fish, nobody wants to learn how to fish.

give a man a flame and he can stay warm for a while, set him on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life
(intellectually speaking)
Quote


i am truely sorry if i offended you , but thats too friggin bad, and by the way i will match my wrench against yours any day of the week on anything
you so choose to pick. i have no doubt in my mechanical ability, as i am sure you have no doubt in yours. so save your little offhand comments re oxygen and oil.


You haven't offended me, and it was never a pissing contest about skill...
"before I went to college I couldn't even spell engineer, now I are one"

Quote


you very well may have the advantage of having been educated in engineering, i have not, in as much as i did not go to school to be trained as an engineer.


you don't learn anything in college bob, except maybe how to learn when you leave, learning how to learn is a valuable skill.
Quote


where you lost ground with me, and i would think a few more in this group, was over your insistance than
lister only specified teh one ton block of concrete, and that their engines would fail if mounted in any other way.


that isn't what I said, and you know it, go back and read those threads and read exactly what I did say, and not what you think I said or what it suits you to think I said.
Quote


sure i asked for proof, none came!


nor should it have, it is not my job to do your legwork for you
Quote

i asked for proof of concept, none came


ditto above, it's not my job bob
Quote

i asked for a formula, and again none came.


ditto above, not my job

what I did do was give you MORE than enough information to find the answers yourself, you chose not to look that hard, that is not my fault or my concern
Quote


hell i set down and worked out the formula myself, and asked you to disprove it
certainly within your means to do so, but as usual , nothing..


you worked out A formula that produced rule of thumb accurate results that more or less fit the real world data you started from.

without wishing to detract from this in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER, it still wasn't THE right answer, you couldn't do the sums for a nordberg flat radial from it for example, THE right answer is out there and you had enough info to deduce the formulae from the data you had. eg pistin mass, con rod mass, crank mass, bore, stroke, etc etc etc etc.
Quote


i asked you to restate your position on the concrete block dimensions,
nothing again, no comment from you,,, just distance from the subject..


saying, truthfully, that with the sole exception of some gentleman collector stuff and hobby stuff as seen on here, which nicely excludes ALL commercial / industrial stationary engine installations, I have never heard, seen, read, or otherwise encountered any data suggesting there was even one single (stationary) engine anywhere not mounted on a concrete block is NOT "my position"

others posted screeds of images and links backing up this observation

If you disagree with the sum total of observable fact then YOU are the one who needs to explain why, and you explanation cannot include any bogus details that you might claim as fact, eg "new technology" because new technology does not change newtonian physics one iota.


Quote


someone i know and respect went to dursley, and went thru the archives
and guess what?  you can mount the friggin engine any way you want to
within reason and have no issues with warranty or failure of components.


bob, I used to live 5 minutes up the road from dursley, I have been to the old lister factory, I've even looked through the files a time or two, hell I'm only an hour away now, I never name dropped or claimed deep throat insider info, not because I don't know anyone there because I do, but because that is a bogus way to try to win an argument.

instead I challenged you to show, not hearsay, show, a lister installation manual for the cs series that said anything about anything except a concrete block.

to date, nobody has published dick.

this again is not "my position"

the sun rising in the east is not "my position"
Quote


but then we are here, with  you on your lofty perch dribbling tidbits of nearly useless stuff.


if it is indeed nearly useless, then it is worth several orders of magnitude more than you paid for it, no?
Quote

carbon content of fuel, really?  how many are going to reformulate their fuel? show me one! how bout you?


so, when other rant about diesel intending his engines to be run on peanut oil and how big oil subverted this, you don't have a problem?

reformulate my fuel? you mean ignoring the fact that different grades and seasons of fuel are all different formulas anyway, so knowing something about this would allow me to choose the best one?

you mean ignoring the fact that as fuel ages it reformulates itself in the tank / barrel, and methods to rectify this problem?

you mean ignoring the fact that apart from leeching into the pump copper pipe catalytically reformulates fuel (esp true for biodiesel) as it is fed through it?

you mean ignoring the fact that WVO is nothing if not reformulated fuel, so it might be useful to know what end product to aim for rather than trying to reinvent the wheel every batch?

I could go on, but you get the picture
Quote

ballistic's, hmmmm, well when i am in need of knowing how far my 54 caliber hawken will pump out a mini ball i will be sure to ask you.


yet again you appear to need to ascribe to me words that I did not say in order to make your argument.

I talked about ball mass going up by the cube, but wad area going up by the square, and the implications of this on ballistics.

the geometry of a piston in a barrel is identical, it is the same math, many gun makers went on to build IC engines, BSA, Birmingham Small Arms, long before they started making motorcycles with the same engineering techniques
Quote

oh yes, lets not forget coal as a diesel engine fuel, hell guy do you really think you are the only one that reads history? and is anyone going to
powder coal and inject it here? are you?

there is little point reading history if one is determined not to learn from it.

the point or lesson was that CARBON is the fuel, everything else is a tradeoff, add hydrogen to the carbon to make a hydrocarbon and you have a worse fuel chemically, but a better one mechanically, you now have a liquid that can be atomised under high pressure, but everything apart from the carbon is still unwanted

I ask you how you square the fact that carbon IS the fuel in an internal combustion engine with the "green" carbon economy bullshit, these are the tough questions bob, I ask a lot of tough questions, I rarely if ever get answers, instead I get told I am an arrogant prick sat on a perch.
Quote


as for cogeneration, you really show yourself to be somewhat uninformed, you liken this to some overunity, free engergy scheme. if you
don't see the value in it then that is your deficiency.


boats were my thing bob, everything you get over or under ground has to be dealt with on a boat, ventilation, heating, cooling, potable water, hot and cold washing water, waste water and feces and maceration, power generation, motive power, hydraulics, pneumatics, desalination, you name it, self contained cities, just add fuel, and sparingly because bunkers are finite in capacity.

cogeneration isn't new, it is decades old, well understood, standard industrial practice. if you don't cogenerate (in reality trigeneration, quad generation, etc) you go bust in weeks, or maybe even days if the operation is big enough.

Quote


my reference to a thoreauvian approach to the efficiency question was simply to get people (you) to think outside of themselves, by placing (self) into the
equation. But i guess you don't appreciate the same tidbits being placed in front of you for inspection either, or are just too superior to allow yourself to be
brought down to such a level of being part of anything, rather everything being a part of you.


bob, today you can buy a days worth of fuel for 15 minutes labour, I never said you can't.

I said elsewhere my home is run on grid power, because I can't get ANYWHERE near their prices doing it myself, economies of scale.

TODAY there is enough oil coming out of the ground to keep all the wheels turning

you can fill in the blanks yourself

it is too late to think about living within your means when you are up to the neck in debt and the banks decide to raise interest rates a couple of points and put you in negative equity land
Quote


lets go back to your diatribe on cogeneration, we need an efficient engine for electric production, we need an inefficient engine for heat production.
really? ;duh.... you friggn amaze me with your continued arrogance,,,


arrogance?
it is a factually correct and complete statement.
if you are after cogeneration then you need to take additional complex and expensive steps to regain efficiency

you need an efficient car for economy
you need an inefficient car for performance

you CAN build a car that will do 60 mpg at 50 mph with 4 people on board, like my old peugeot, and which will also do 180 mph and a standing quarter in 12 seconds, but it will make a porsche look cheap

all I am doing is pointing out that SUVs are brainless vehicles that only exist because of a stupid tax system, if that is arrogance then so be it
Quote


#1 we have whatever engine we have, beit a changfa, lister/oid, petter/oid, whatever, and as such 99.999 of us will never affect a 1% change in efficiency of our
engine's, that leaves you to do that and show your wonderful results.


that is the point, that is where you are utterly wrong, a rev limiter and limited throttle travel will dramatically increase the efficieny of any car, that can be a physical travel stop, or a light right foot, the effect is the same.

any engine can be run efficiently or inefficiently, fact is fuel is so cheap everyone says it ain't worth their time to be efficient.

see the 200 mpg carburretor
Quote


#2 you work with what you have, you measure with what you have, you test with what you have, and you accept what you get,,, period, and yes there will be those
that scream bullshit,,,, but who cares?


if you don't care, don't claim you have beaten the second law of thermodynamics within earshot of someone who knows what it is
Quote


#3 if the thing does what you want it to do, then who gives a shit what some cranky old englishman thinks? i know i don't! anyone?


tailor for the emperors new clothes eh, fair enough.
Quote


i will check your stall one last time, that is to find one thing

"what is the dimension of the one ton block of concrete?


same answer as always, read the lister installation manual, the one I published for you al to see, or any other one you can find, it gives precise details, and if you think you know better than lister......

as always there is a third way.

third parties who have run listeroids sans block of concrete, and with block of concrete.

you could ask them, except we both know they aren't about to take a jackhammer to their concrete blocks.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Guy_Incognito

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 255
  • Just a guy, incognito.
    • View Profile
Re: You lay out your stall, sit back, watch, wait.
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2006, 11:03:01 PM »
I lay out my stall with various ideas and titbits of information, I sit back and watch who wanders up, which bits they pick up and analyse, and what further responses they generate.

If I put some really cool and really useful items out on show, and still get no real response, it is obvious that people aren't looking for really cool or useful items, or maybe they are but don't know one when they stub their toe on it.


The problem, Guy_F, is that you lay out your stall with tidbits of info.... that are completely buried under a mountain of tangential wordy crap.


mobile_bob

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2940
    • View Profile
Re: You lay out your stall, sit back, watch, wait.
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2006, 01:09:20 AM »
Guy:

i have finally figured you out, you use a shotgun to do the work of a pea shooter.

you fire so much crap against the wall some of it will stick i suppose.

show me where i have ever stated that anyone is going to beat any physic's law?

you stick these inaccurate statements within all the verbage, and if one doesnt read closely some of the inaccuracies get tracked in with
the mud.

THE FACTS ARE THAT LISTER DID NOT MAKE THE CONCRETE BLOCK A REQUIRMENT OF LONG LIFE OR WARRANTY, PERIOD!

further they did make mention of the use of resilient mounts for these engine.

anyway that topic is dead as your arguement.

now then i want you to read the following very carefully

   you as an educated engineer, have the background and information at your hand to help in innumerable ways.
you could add to the discussion, rather than detract, you could lead instead of drag folks down.
you could provide cogent, clear and concise examples to support your claims. you could provide something useful and
positive, but....

you rather choose to be like master poe, or the wizard of oz and either hide behind the drapes or speak in riddles.
i did not go to college, this is a fact, but i was taught physic's by a phd in physics and mechanical engineering.
i was taught to think by several very bright individuals, and without exception i learned one thing from them.

"if you cannot get a straight answer from an individual, then rephrase it, if you still cannot get a straight answer, try one more
time to rephrase it,,,, if you still cannot get a straight answer, the guy doesn't know the answer!"

You know GuyF, you seem to fit this catagory

when someone states something as fact, and you disagree you ask for proof, do you not?

why is it not incumbent on you to provide proof if the same is asked of you?


as for going back and rereading 10 million lines of text to dig out your claims as to the lister engineers having designed their holy engine to be
enthroned on a concrete alter, i am just not going to do it.  claim now what you like, but i know there are more than a few that followed you
and what your wrote to that effect.

you can twist and turn it all you like, but i am calling an ace an ace, and a spade a spade.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

mobile_bob

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2940
    • View Profile
Re: You lay out your stall, sit back, watch, wait.
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2006, 01:30:54 AM »
Guy:

in case you missed it

" Re: seeking an answer...
« Reply #68 on: November 23, 2006, 04:22:12 pm »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1936 LISTER BOOK NO 103 says this
                                                   Fixing
       The Engine should be securely fastened and reasonably level.
       Important Note.  For belt drive always arrange the inside edge of
driving belt as close to Engine bearing as possible. Where "Fast" and
 "Loose" pulleys are used always arrange the pulleys so that the drive is
taken on the side of the pulley nearest to the Engine bearing.
         Attention to the above will prevent undue strain on the bearings due to
overhang.


A slightly later book 103 says this
.
                         Fixing
       The Engine should be securely fastened and reasonably level.
       Important Note.  For belt drive always arrange the inside edge of
driving belt as close to Engine bearing as possible. Where "Fast" and
 "Loose" pulleys are used always arrange the pulleys so that the drive is
taken on the side of the pulley nearest to the Engine bearing.
         Attention to the above will prevent undue strain on the bearings due to
overhang.
                                      EXTRA HEAVY BELT DRIVES

       If the machine which the Engine is to drive makes the use of an exceptionally
heavy or tight driving belt unavoidable, the driving pulley should be supported
between two bearings on an extension shaft with a flexible coupling to connect it
to the engine. Pulley shaft bearings and engine should be mounted on a substantial
steel girder or concrete base.

1952 LISTER BOOK NO 103 says this

                                                     INSTALATION
The Engine must be installed where a generous supply of ftesh air is assured.
A portable electric light is recomended in addition to the fixed lighting of the engine room.
The most convenient hight for the crankshaft is 27in above the ground.
Keep the Exhaust and Water Pipes as short as possible.
Leave a space of about 3 feet all around the Engine for ease of access and maintenance.

Foundations     
       Our standard foundation drawings give the dimensions of suitable concerte beds. These
dimensions are the minimum for a good solid subsoil and modifications will have to be made where
the subsoil is soft water logged or otherwise of a special character.
       Set the Engine as level as possible packing under the Engine feet with thin metal strips, placed
aa close as possible to the holding down bolts.

Portable models
       Place Portable Models in as level position as possible.


1983 LISTER BOOK 103 says this

  INSTALATION
The Engine must be installed where a generous supply of ftesh air is assured.
A portable electric light is recomended in addition to the fixed lighting of the engine room.
The most convenient hight for the crankshaft is 27in above the ground.
Keep the Exhaust and Water Pipes as short as possible.
Leave a space of about 3 feet all around the Engine for ease of access and maintenance.

Foundations     
       Our standard foundation drawings give the dimensions of suitable concerte beds. These
dimensions are the minimum for a good solid subsoil and modifications will have to be made where
the subsoil is soft water logged or otherwise of a special character.
       Set the Engine as level as possible packing under the Engine feet with thin meral strips, placed
aa close as possible to the holding down bolts.

Portable models
       Place Portable Models in as level position as possible.


All the above references are out of genuine lister engine books  from 1936 to 1983 and they dont tell very much but what they do point out is that these engines were used as portable engines They were used in cement mixers during and after the war and lot of other portable applications The size of the concrete block mentioned at
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Technical/51P3data.htm is just for mounting the engine on.

The heavier concrete block is probably for the startomatic units

1952 Startomatic manual for 6hp 650rpm 2.5kw sets says this

FOUNDATION
Mount the generating set on a concrete block 2'  3'' deep. 3'' above floor level and 3''
wider and longer than the baseplate . When pouring the concrete leave four square holes
4'' square x 15'' deep for the holding down bolts.
When the concrete block is hard the set should be levelled up and a grouting mixture of cement
and sand worked in under the bearing surfaces of the baseplate. The bolts should be grouted in
but not tightened down untill the grouting has set hard.

The 1969 Startomatic manual for the 6/1. 3kw sets and  8/1. 4.5kw sets says exactly the same as above. but in the back of the the manual is drawing no 4526EP. This gives the layout of the engine room  and this gives the dimensions for the concrete block. These dimensions are 4' 4'' long 2' 1'' wide and 1'8'' deep including 5'' above the floor. This is totally  different to what it says at the begining of this manual.

Also included in drawing no 4526EP is this note just above the description in the bottom right hand corner

NOTE:-
WHEN FLEXIBLE MOUNTINGS ARE
FITTED FLEXIBLE EXHAUST AND
FUEL PIPES MUST BE USED




INSTRUCTIONS FOR 6/1. 8/1. 12/2 AND 16/2
PUSH BUTTON REMOTE CONTROLLED PLANTS  Says this aswell

Foundation.       A heavy block is required on which to stand the plant.
If a belt driven set is being installed, with seperate beds for engine and
dynamo or other driven machine, the two beds should be connected by a stout
section of re-inforced concrete floor.   Care must be taken to ensure that
the engine bedplate beds evenly on the concrete block. To insure this,
the plant bedplate should be grouted in (i.e. it should be let down on to
a bed of soft mortar).    It is an advantage to place a piece of steel plate
about 3'' x 1/2'' between the engine feet and the concrete block when an engine
alone is installed.   The whole should be grouted as above.
Where a bedplate is not supplied, the engine or plant supports must not
grouted in; this will facilitate easy removal of each component.

Plants and engines should be raised above  floor level on a plinth so that
the crankshaft is about 27'' above the floor for convenience of starting and
maintenance. The concrete used in foundation blocks should be 1 part
cement, 2 parts sand, 3 parts gravel up to 1 1/2''.

Foundation Bolts.          Foundation bolts of combined set should not be tightened
down too much, particularly with fabricated steel bed plates.


I hope this information is of some interest

Mick"



if you read all of it you will note, the mention of either a heavy steel base, or a concrete base, and another mention of "if you use flexible mounts"
this is all from lister publications

did you not ever state

1. "lister specified only a concrete block of x dimensions....."

2. " you will have crankshaft or flywheel problems......"

3. " a lister engineer came with the engine to make sure the concrete was placed right....."

4. " lister designed there engine based on the use of a concrete block...."

5. " the center of mass is moved outside the engine....."

6. " the concrete block is to be of a specific dimension, of specific composition....."

do i really need to bring up all the quotes?

are you still of the position that it is the only way, the only approved way, the engineered way, the basis of the engine design?

seriously?

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

buickanddeere

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 807
    • View Profile
Re: You lay out your stall, sit back, watch, wait.
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2006, 02:18:28 AM »
  The h*ll with the TV/telly tonight. I'm having a couple more drinks and re-reading this and other postings.

   GF, if I may paraphrase.

   90% of people make 90% of their decisions based on emotion and 10% on logic.

  The brilliant scientist, inventor and eve even tradesman etc tend to die unknown and penniless. The person with the gift of the gab who can make people FEEL good while purchasing his product ( even if it’s un-needed poor quality mindless trash). They will be the well thought of, wealthy, loved and respected heroes of industry and commerce. 

GuyFawkes

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1184
    • View Profile
    • stuff
Re: You lay out your stall, sit back, watch, wait.
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2006, 03:46:49 AM »
1/ you ever seen a "portable" CS bob? I have, it don't mean what you think it means. It don't resemble in any way, shape or form what people are doing on here. A local builder had a "portable" CS powered cement mixer for years if not decades until a few years ago when the old man retired, I dunno how many cubic yards the bucket held, but the "cement mixer" weighed about 5 tons, you'd have barely recognised the CS either as it had but a single massive flywheel, and a big outboard bearing on the opposite crank to support the chain drive to the worm gearbox. It was about as portable as a 40 foot portakabin, in much the same way.

2/ "securely fastened and reasonably level" does not say or infer no concrete block, on the contrary, if it hops AT ALL, EVEN THE SLIGHTEST AMOUNT, it is by definition not securely fastened.

3/ you guys are all building start-o-matic equivalents, with or without the s-o-m facility, you are building gen sets, not water pumps or anything else, so the only valid comparison is the lister gen set, which doesn't say anything about portable or anything except the concrete block

4/ "when flexible mounts are used" does not say when or why flexible mounts are used, nor does it say WHERE they are used, so you are just assuming they were used right under the crankcase, and not at the next layer down... you cannot securely fasten anything to a flexible mount

5/ you have in no way disproven anything of mine that you have quoted, and the only way you have been able to create any lassitude is to conflate different applications which are quite significantly unlike anything anyone on here is doing.

6/ you, and everyone else, have steadfastly and most studiously ignored the very obvious non concrete block mounting that I mentioned several times, sticking it on a barge floating in a pool, which incidentally will damp ALL vibration from being transmitted to the enviorns

7/ you steadfastly ignore the very obvious success and transformation mr belk has attained by going to the concrete block, and the dire warnings of other who have fatigued substantial welds and bolts in short order

8/ you steadfastly ignore the fact that I posted a video of mine starting and running, worst case scenario for jumping about, on a bloody trolley with cast iron wheels on a hard driveway, with no shaking or jumping about, because mine is an original lister and pretty well balanced, which cannot apparently be said for listeroids, yet you wish to treat listeroids as being at least equal to listers in this respect.

bob, you haven't sussed me out, and I don't use a shot gun instead of a pea shooter, but since you miss the point utterly I'll tell you exactly what I do, and it ain't if a person don't answer a question after 3 tries he don't know the answer.

a/ perspective is everything, "that house is white" and "that house is white on this side", you are the former, I am the latter. Perspective is fundamental to understanding so I always throw a bit of perspective in.

b/ human dialogue is not a short series of binary option, yes / no and each choice leads to a separate path, dialogue is a path in a general direction with many branches, you can tell something about the other person by the branches they take, you can tell more by the ones they studiously avoid.... in your own words you are a dog with a bone, you don't want any kind of dialogue with me, you want one or two questions answered, and you want them answered in a way that suits you, you may find that elsewhere in life, but not with me. Like I have told you a dozen times now, not my job to answer your questions.

c/ you seem to be pretty fixated on the idea that the ivy league college boy with multicoloured pens and a slide rule sticking out of his top pocket can't help himself from talking down to the kid from the wrong side of the tracks who did metal shop at school, that may be an exaggeration, but you seem to be predisposed to thinking I'm talking down to you, or trying to use my education to add weight to my side of the argument, eg "I have a phd and you don't, so I must be right." that ain't the case, I haven't said I'm right because I'm smarter than you, I HAVE said I'm right because every real world proper commercial / industrial stationary engine installation I have ever seen, read, heard etc of was done on a big block of concrete, another poster posted screeds of links and pictures of stationary engines on concrete blocks, NOBODY has posted a SINGLE example of a commercial / industrial stationary engine installation done any other way, it's not me you are arguing with any more than if I say the sky is blue and point upwards.

d/ doesn't matter what one persons field of expertise is, they are dumb in most fields, but the benefit of meeting someone who knows more is not that they can show us how smart they are, but that they have been down the path before us, they can point out all the interesting little side roads off the path, because they know where they will lead, and that many of them will lead back to the path, often via a short cut, but you can only point them out to people, you can't make them try them out.

that's my purpose, if I can be said to have one, here, not the shotgun or the peashooter, maybe the tourist information guy, go down these side roads, if you follow them with half the determination you worry the bone you are fixated on you will discover wonderful things for yourself, and that is the only way anyone learns anything, by discovering it for themselves.... carbon content as fuel, bob, that's like not knowing turning motorcycle handlebars left will precess the flywheel that is the front wheel and make it lean to the right, thus changing the steering geometry and turning the whole bike to the right, anyone who goes "yeah, whatever" DOES NOT GET IT, and they won't until they think it through and then follow the implications, if the front wheel is a gyro so is the back wheel, and the engine and gearbox come to that, except they are being pushed over...... it's not bumps in the road or simple revolutions that wears out the wheel bearings on a bike.

follow the carbon is the fuel path, follow the efficiency is the proportion of carbon path, follow the implications of the "carbon economy" which EVERY government in the western world is pushing like hotcakes at every opportunity, we, they tell us, must get on with a lowered and constantly lowering carbon economy, what does this MEAN bob?

it means apart from nuclear, and apart from a little hydro and solar, they are telling us that ALL our remaining major mainstay energy sources are drying up, they are drying up NOW and they are encouraging us to reduce usage NOW, but they are "selling" it, marketing style, dressed up as being enviornmentally friendly.

they are saying "START USING LESS ENERGY PER CAPITA NOW!!!"

ever noticed the correlation between energy usage per capita and standard of living, affluence and wealth?

it is not me using a scatter gun when I say "yeah bob, I accept you can buy all your daily fuel for 15 minutes labour, today...."

unless you are planning on dying soon and not worrying about any surviving family "today" don't matter cos today is changing.

knowing that carbon is fuel and knowing about efficiency and the second law of thermodynamics and everything else can get you getting your lister/oid ready to run on bunker (#6 / heavy oil / G / whatever) instead of fucking around trying to get 125 watts out of a changfa for a teaspoon full of fuel a minute.

they got plans bob, plans that are being implemented and put in place in a big way, and those plans are you do what you do but you have less energy to do it, so same as always your personal wealth and ability to provide is going to be governed by how much energy you can afford to consume every day, we HAD fucking three day weeks here bob, 30 years ago, near killed the economy, not enough power for 5 day weeks, why the fuck do you think I bought a lister again after all these years, when there is no way I can compete with grid electric much less grid natural gas?

the carbon economy bob, it ain't coming some time in the future, it is here now, and it ain't going to ramp down, only up.

it ain't about having electric when no one else does, one riot later you ain't got shit, it is about having enough electric to ply your trade when everyone else is on brownout, and believe me when you start literally working your lister for a living you will give a fuck about concrete block longevity and combustion efficiency reliability.

you ask me if I think I'm the only one who reads history, nope, but I wonder how many really think through what they are reading, as opposed to how many think "history" = "the past", I can't think of any way world governments can be more obvious in what they are saying, if they were any more obvious there would be rioting in the streets tomorrow and someone who told bigger lies would be voted in, which would make the end game all the worse, carbon economy = energy squeeze, and brother, your domestic a/c / macerator / walk in larder / 8 kW shower / etc is bottom of the list, EASY to discriminate against, industrial power is on a different grid, truck diesel and heavy oils won't work in petrol cars of diesel cars, don't even need pricing to encourage reduction in usage, just limit supply, EVERYTHING you can shake a stick at is writing on the wall for this, so NOW is the time people need to begin amassing the only thing that will make a difference, and that thing is knowledge, for example, wikipedia, ok, it has issues, but it is a store of 100 gigabytes of useful knowledge, and it is not for profit, and if energy costs double it is offline and gone, and THAT is too late for you to realise you could use the information that is there, or you could have ordered those physics or engineering books from amazon

personally I am looking forwards to it, it is an ill wind that blows no good, and my skills will suddenly become extremely marketable, and the pr bunnies and marketers and telephone hygenists can enjoy the wrong side of the bell curve for a while

you can waste your time arguing about rubber mounting stationary engines, or microgeneration with changfas that will cost more to import than to buy, or you can dramatically broaden your skillset and knowledge base and point people at your actual working on bunker diesel with cogen heat extraction to supply the required heat to the bunker etc etc etc ps I know all about carbon as fuel and efficiency and the laws of thermodynamics and make yourself not just marketable but sought after, or you can watch the amount of labour you have to do for a days worth of fuel go up and up and up.

so what are you gonna do bob? gnaw at that bone some more? or take another look at some of those side paths I've been on about?

and say, just for the sake of argument, that I am wrong, you still end up smarter and more marketable, so where is the downside?
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

GuyFawkes

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1184
    • View Profile
    • stuff
Re: You lay out your stall, sit back, watch, wait.
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2006, 03:47:45 AM »
  The h*ll with the TV/telly tonight. I'm having a couple more drinks and re-reading this and other postings.

   GF, if I may paraphrase.

   90% of people make 90% of their decisions based on emotion and 10% on logic.

  The brilliant scientist, inventor and eve even tradesman etc tend to die unknown and penniless. The person with the gift of the gab who can make people FEEL good while purchasing his product ( even if it’s un-needed poor quality mindless trash). They will be the well thought of, wealthy, loved and respected heroes of industry and commerce. 



spot on
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Samuel777

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: You lay out your stall, sit back, watch, wait.
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2006, 06:18:53 AM »
you know from my stand point it looks like Guy is asking one little question in his first big post.

Why can he say something and everyone gives him flak about not having proof yada yada yada and at the same time you will listion to other people (ie government or the dude that sells listeriods) and not question (or question very hard) what they say.


mobile_bob

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2940
    • View Profile
Re: You lay out your stall, sit back, watch, wait.
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2006, 07:04:26 AM »
Damn Guy:

ok old friend, :)

i will restate for the record and for all those that are new to the show.

1. i am not against the use of concrete to mount the engine,

2. i am not suggesting the use of rubber mounts between the engine and the frame,

3. i am stating that resilient mounts if implimented properly will not damage or shorten the engine's life,

4. i am stating that the concrete base is in no way an intregal part of the original design of the engine,

5. the engine is of common design and as such does not need additional strength from a concrete block.

6. resilient mounts can be used if done properly between the base and the floor. providing that a sufficiently stiff steel
mount is designed and implimented.

7. lister did not mandate the use of a concrete block, to maintain warranty

further i am not assuming that listers mention of rubber mounts were under the engine block, actually i would be surprised if that were the case

here again we rehash all that has been agreed to already.

as for Jack Belk, i know of the gentleman, and of his engines and work with them, further i also know how he feels about a concrete block.
that is one for your side. at least for now :) 
from Jacks work we know that a massive concrete block works,, nothing new there,

i will now skip on to what has finally surfaced as your primary point
that being the use of bunker oil i would assume.

i don't know about you or anyone else, but i have been actively working with waste oils, veggie oils, hyd oils, and yes
heavy bunker oils, along with gasifiers and methane generation in dual fuel mode. also been toying with alcohol in dual fuel mode.

and i will continue to do so, be assured of that.
if you wanted to talk about alternative fuels, such as bunker oil, why didnt you just say so?
we could have saved a bunch of typing, and kickin and screamin, and other fun stuff


as for the carbon economy,,, "UNCLE" you win! i got no complaint with you on this one,
what would be really useful now is to expand on this theme, and move forward.
i know full well that we are being controlled, call it conspiracy, call it whatever you like
i call it reality.

yes the time is rapidly coming that we will be alotted fuel and alot of folks are going to feel the pain.
those with options will feel a bit less, those with many options will feel alot less.



bob g







otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

GuyFawkes

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1184
    • View Profile
    • stuff
Re: You lay out your stall, sit back, watch, wait.
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2006, 03:24:02 PM »


as for Jack Belk, i know of the gentleman, and of his engines and work with them, further i also know how he feels about a concrete block.
that is one for your side. at least for now :) 
from Jacks work we know that a massive concrete block works,, nothing new there,

that's right, we KNOW the concrete block works, I KNOW flexible mounts as proposed on here don't work, not in the long run, suck it and see, the point is ONLY those people with experience if both types of mounting can have a valid opinion, leaving me out of the equation that leaves you with mr belk, until someone there tries both and goes back to flexible mounts the score remains 100% in favour of the concrete block and 0% in favour of resilient mounts.

you can't put spin on that, or gainsay it, or qualify it.

it may not be a statistically large sample, but given hotaters obvious technical abilities it is a statistically significant sample.

Quote

i will now skip on to what has finally surfaced as your primary point
that being the use of bunker oil i would assume.

not really, the primary point was the bull in the china shop direct route from the starting line to the desired end point as specified when at the starting line closes off a lot of interesting doors, and chances are that will bite you in the ass sometime down the tracks.

road diesel is "supported" in so many invisible ways you don't realise using road diesel is easy because it is supported, learn the stuff I mention and running bunker is as trivial as running road diesel, you don't make mistakes and you don't make it hard for yourself.

it's one of those "if I was going there I wouldn't start from here" things, you have to have the local knowledge.

the original CS was an ideal engine for re-fueling, the corners cut on the listeroids are cut in exactly the worst places from this perspective..... the sulphur content isn't too much of a problem, the alu and silicon and other trace elements are the problem.

thankfully the problem has been solved for decades, provided you don't try to reinvent the wheel, and people do try to reinvent the wheel to get around if I was going there I wouldn't start from here.

forget cogen for domestic heat, if you want to run bunker efficiently then you need to reclaim heat from the engine to make the fuel usable, and listers don't produce much heat, so every effort you spend on domestic heat from cogen puts you further and further away from where you want to be starting from.

if you are running bunker then you want as efficient an engine as possible, because they waste products get very complex and very bad for longevity otherwise
Quote

i don't know about you or anyone else, but i have been actively working with waste oils, veggie oils, hyd oils, and yes
heavy bunker oils, along with gasifiers and methane generation in dual fuel mode. also been toying with alcohol in dual fuel mode.

the two score cs series that were shipped to indonesia that I mentioned some time ago were all run on bunker, the adaption was designed with knowledge of the things I mention and reference to shipboard bunker engines, why reinvent the wheel, they were adapted and run, no tweaking or mods required.

that btw was the reason for one of my visits to dursley before the fire, to see what they had in the records about it

there was at the time another engine (I forget the make) available that would runright off bunker, but like no fords in saudi they weren't considered because the parent company was "jewish"
Quote

and i will continue to do so, be assured of that.
if you wanted to talk about alternative fuels, such as bunker oil, why didnt you just say so?
we could have saved a bunch of typing, and kickin and screamin, and other fun stuff

I don't want to talk about alternative fuels, per se, I want to play tourist guide and point out these interesting side paths, along the way you pass by bunker and a bunch of other things, it is back to that old work smart, not hard, thing again.
Quote

as for the carbon economy,,, "UNCLE" you win! i got no complaint with you on this one,
what would be really useful now is to expand on this theme, and move forward.
i know full well that we are being controlled, call it conspiracy, call it whatever you like
i call it reality.

it is reality, oil is a finite resource, like living space in london or new york, it won't run out, it just gets more expensive, and the oil companies are like estate agents, increased scarcity and increased prices don't hurt them until the market is squashed to half its size and value, then nuke plants will be built fast and cheap.

dubya has grabbed iraq, you know how scared they are because there are plans for africa and iran etc, maybe even senor chaves, we are staritng to fall out with the russians cos they have all that natural gas they are thinking twice about sharing, so we re-invest in trident again.
Quote

yes the time is rapidly coming that we will be alotted fuel and alot of folks are going to feel the pain.
those with options will feel a bit less, those with many options will feel alot less.

bob g


knowledge = options

--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.