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Author Topic: Petter Gibb Key trouble  (Read 8747 times)

Doug

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Petter Gibb Key trouble
« on: December 03, 2006, 06:55:20 PM »
I need some advice now.

I've tried to pry and wedge out my key with no luck and I built a puller.

The Petter doesn't offer the room that a Lister does for pullers so I came up with this plate pusher type
The plates is 1/4 mild steel, the bolts are 5/16 fine with 3 10-32 screws for support ( only on assembly to hold it together untill the main bolts take up the weight ).
As you can see in these pictures the key over hangs the shaft by about 3/8 and the back is arching over the end of the shaft. The puller is working as I had hoped these bolts are torqued with a ratchet untill the fly wheel statrs to move and then I change to a different bolt. The fly wheel is holding up nicely under the presure and there still is more room to increase the presure but the head of that key won't take much more.

The 1/4 plate behind the Key head is beginning to deform and squeeze into the notch from the pusher plate behind it....

Any Ideas?

Photos in my Putfile.

http://www.putfile.com/dougwp/images/31565

Doug

rmchambers

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Re: Petter Gibb Key trouble
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2006, 08:12:16 PM »
This is a brandy new engine isn't it Doug?

I'm assmuing you've already hit the thing with a decent shot of penetrating oil, perhaps drop some good paint solvent on it in the hopes that it may soften up some of that paint and give you some extra wiggle room.

If the head on the key is deforming then you're putting a hell of a lot of pressure on it so something is seriously binding up.

Can you warm up the flywheel without overdoing it and drip some liquid refrigerant on the key itself?  some of those cans of compressed gas that you use to blow out cameras and such, if you turn it upside down you get a VERY cold liquid out..  make the flywheel larger, chill the gibb key down as much as you can and crank the bolts.  As a last ditch measure if you gave it some taps with a copper headed mallet it might unbind the part that's causing your grief and let go.

If the steel is deforming too, perhaps you can harden it up with a heat/quench cycle.

let us know how you make out.  I'm going to be getting a petteroid myself.

Robert

Doug

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Re: Petter Gibb Key trouble
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2006, 08:33:38 PM »
.  I'm going to be getting a petteroid myself.

Robert

Run away as fast as you can.....
Too many of these things have issues. Sid like the Petters he bought from Mike Montieth, other have there own Ideas DO NOT BUY A Ashweg ( What ever they call it ) that Utterpower was selling these rattle apart and run away more than one person has reported this.

As  much as I like the engines and design taking it apart is a freak show the likes I have never seen before. This engines was apart several times ( I am told by the builder Powerline ) at the works to set the distance on the flywheel for the starter. They realy smashed it (key) in there.

Thanks for the tips mostly what I have been hearing from people is the same advice but its always apreciated

Doug

rmchambers

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Re: Petter Gibb Key trouble
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2006, 11:01:26 PM »
Couple of things.

1. I'm bummed to hear there are issues with the petteroids, but better to hear about them now so as to make an informed decision rather than later if I get a dog.  Is the consensus that the petteroids themselves are bad or just those from certain suspect manufacturers?  What are the chances of getting a decent shape original Petter in the Northeast?

As for the Gib key, it sounds to me like you are going to have to drill that thing out in an attempt to loosen it enough to remove it, then dress up the key way and replace it with a new (and also dressed) key.

Is the gib key just a straight key or does it have a profile on it to make it bind harder?

Perhaps you can drill it, tap it and put a slap hammer on it and see if you can send enough of a shock to it to pop it out.

Good luck, watch the knuckles.

Robert

Doug

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Re: Petter Gibb Key trouble
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2006, 11:15:55 PM »
I believe the main problem with the Petteroids was simply a large number of a duds from one or two builders came in trouble is so few cam in its hard to say. The GG Gear units that Sid has a reported to be trouble free the other brand he has is only run without an air cleaner in case it runs away.

My Powerline Petter doesn't seem to be made of bad parts but rather has assembly issues. Its clean inside but I have had trouble with valve keepers that are garbage ( all 3 sets ) valve guides that are too loose to consider serviceable ( 1 of 3 sets ), stripped nuts and studs ( this is big trouble because they are Whitworth ) and poor alignment of cast ports and threading for studs on water outlets and other bolt on parts.

Overall most of what I see pleases me, but an engine that won't come a part without damaging is a bad sign for the future.

All this adds up if you have to take the time to fix it like I am. At this point I have an engine that I have never run that continues to cost me more and more money and time just to strip clean and correct problems that should have never been there in the first place. Like a hugely over hammered gibb key

The nice thing about Powerline is however the time they have taken to offer advice and follow ups on problems. It will be intersting to see if the next engines they ship have bennifited from the problems I have discussed with them.

Doug
« Last Edit: December 04, 2006, 03:13:19 AM by Doug »

rcavictim

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Re: Petter Gibb Key trouble
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2006, 01:04:39 AM »
I believe the main problem with the Petteroids was simply a large number of a duds from one or two builders came in trouble is so few cam in its hard to say. The GG Gear units that Sid has a rep[orted to be trouble free the other brand he has is only run without an air cleaner in case it runs away.

My Powerline Petter doesn't seem to be made of bad parts but rather has assembly issues. Its clean inside but I have had trouble with valve keepers that are garbage ( all 3 sets ) valve guides that are too loose to consider serviceable ( 1 of 3 sets ), stripped nuts and studs ( this is big trouble because they are Whitworth ) and poor alignment of cast ports and threading for studs on water outlets and other bolt on parts.

Overall most of what I see pleases me, but an engine that won't come a part without damaging is a bad sign for the future.

All this adds up if you have to take the time to fix it like I am. At this point I have an engine that I have never run that continues to cost me more and more money and time just to strip clean and correct problems that should have never been there in the first place. Like a hugely over hammered gibb key....

Doug

Doug,

Arc weld a clevis bolt to the exposed end of the jib key.  Get 150 feet of strong aircraft cable laid nicely to play out easily and tie the other end to a SAM aimed in the direction you want to apply a strong yank to the jib key.

If that doesnt work I recommend welding to the exposed end, something that you can attach a slide hammer to.

Before any of the above have you tried heating the exposed key to orange with oxy acetylene and let the heat get in there?  Then letting cool and trying your puller again with penetrating oil?  This works super wit seized bolts for me.  The heat expands the bolt both compressing against and loosening the crud that holds it locked.  Upon cooling the bolt shrinks a bit leaving it loosened.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

Doug

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Re: Petter Gibb Key trouble
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2006, 02:42:59 AM »
Victory....

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4164987

My puller was fine, I was too timmid to use it to full potential.

Thank you to all, removed it with the crack of a small hammer and a little extra torque in about 30 seconds.

Doug

listeroidsusa

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Re: Petter Gibb Key trouble
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2006, 04:03:02 AM »
Doug, the Petter type engines seem to have gib keys that typically are fitted tighter than the Lister keys. I have actually had them break off using a puller I made similar to yours. The Petter type flywheels are small enough to easily fit in a lathe so I'd recommend boring out the flywheel to take a taper bushing. A taper bushing will hold as tight as a gib key and still be easily removeable. The standard taper for the SK bushings is 3/4" per foot. I've modified the flywheels this way before and it works well. It also eliminates having the key sticking out to snag on something. Boring the flywheel would be easy now that you have it off.

Mike Montieth

Doug

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Re: Petter Gibb Key trouble
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2006, 07:18:31 PM »
I haven't got the fly wheel off yet Mike:

I'm now in  the process of making another puller for that job.

I did consider the SK bushing already as a matter of fact but that leaves me with a new problem if I go that route. I planned on using the stock fly wheel adapter and cam cam gear extension shaft. The SK bushing will blow that right out of the water ( http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4071037 image in upper left ).

Mike what do you think of the idea of having the extension shaft sub arced to the end of the crank so it looks like a real AV1 did?

Doug

Doug

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Re: Petter Gibb Key trouble
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2006, 04:29:36 AM »
I've found and lost this 3 times....

http://www.oldmarineengine.com/technical/gib_keys.htm

This guy sounds like he knows more about key removal than any of us...

And I like the set screw idea to hold the key from backing out. I'm going to drill mine 8-32 and see how it works out

Doug

dkwflight

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Re: Petter Gibb Key trouble
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2006, 04:52:06 AM »
Hi
I kind of like the idea of a set screw to hold the gib key rather than slamming it with a sledge hammer.
Dennis
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Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

fattywagonman

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Re: Petter Gibb Key trouble
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2007, 02:15:25 AM »
I'm trying to get my Petter supplier to use a QD taper hub instead of a gib key... I see that's what Arrow engines uses...

Here's a link for those who don't know what these are...

http://www.martinsprocket.com/PDF/b-3.pdf

Doug

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Re: Petter Gibb Key trouble
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2007, 01:22:03 AM »
All the pictures I have seen of the arrows use the standard long shaft adapter, how can you use a taper lock bushing under that adapter?

I assumed they had Gib head keys in there.

Doug

fattywagonman

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Re: Petter Gibb Key trouble
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2007, 02:25:58 AM »
Quote
All the pictures I have seen of the arrows use the standard long shaft adapter, how can you use a taper lock bushing under that adapter?

I assumed they had Gib head keys in there.

Doug

I'm pretty sure that Arrow still uses the gib key... but in their other engine they use the QD type hub..
Here's a link to a photo..

http://www.arrowengine.com/cseries.htm

I think the QD would be a big improvement for the petteroid...

Doug

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Re: Petter Gibb Key trouble
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2007, 10:46:16 PM »
Do you have torque specs fopr the Petteroid head and con rod bolts?

Time to assemble....

Thank You in advance Fatty
Doug