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Author Topic: Railway sleepers V Douglas fir  (Read 5905 times)

VTXLister

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Railway sleepers V Douglas fir
« on: November 27, 2006, 04:12:39 PM »
Hi all

I've been lurking on the forum for months, and finally signed up the other day - lots of good stuff here.

My Listeroid 8/1 is arriving next week, and the price of steel being what it is (ie prohibitive), I am looking at building a base like this one:

http://www.utterpower.com/wooden_base.htm

The base will be  2m long, bolted to the concrete floor of my garage (12" thick, 30ft x 10ft), and with a welded and bolted angle-iron subframe as per  the link above. The reason for the length is that I will be mounting the 50 gallon cooling drum on the same frame at one end, and sandbags on the other, in order to provide what will hopefully be further dampening.

My question is as follows:

I have been offered 6"x6" x 2m  beams in either Douglas Fir or Railway sleeper wood (can't remember what timber this actually is, but feels almost fossilised!). It struck me that RS will be denser and therefore "closer" to steel I beams, but...

Any ideas/comments/suggestions?

Thanks

Zaz - VTXLister



rcavictim

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Re: Railway sleepers V Douglas fir
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2006, 04:30:22 PM »
I expect you may get engine vibration (thumping) transmitted into the concrete floor slab with this setup.
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VTXLister

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Re: Railway sleepers V Douglas fir
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2006, 05:40:18 PM »
Why do you think that is?

Is it because I will be using a "slab" rather than a "block"?

rcavictim

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Re: Railway sleepers V Douglas fir
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2006, 06:02:17 PM »
It will depend a lot on how smooth your Listeroid is to start with.  I only have my Petter to calibrate my `gut feeling`.  I`m pretty sure that if I mounted my Petter as you describe I`d get thumping in the shop floor. The poured floor slab is a typical 4-5 incher. If it was bolted directly to my floor with grouted in J-bolts I`d expect to sense this in the house nearby. You say 12 inches.  Maybe you will be OK.

Whatever happens you will have no problems coming up with a fix by adding some resiliancy in the mount between the engine and 12 inch floor if you have a problem.  Go for the 12 inch pour.
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biobill

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Re: Railway sleepers V Douglas fir
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2006, 09:14:11 PM »
  I agree with rcavictem, I don't think you'll be happy with that setup, especially if your garage is attached to the house. The low frequency vibrations telegraph an amazingly long distance through earth and concrete will be even worse. I have a set in my barn that I can feel in my house over 50' away. By contrast,I have a set in the basement of the house mounted on rubber that I can't feel standing next to it.
  With 12" of concrete, I'm sure you'll be safe enough and if the vibrations don't bother you then OK. People ride Harleys after all. I'd go with the dougfir and put something between it and the concrete as a moisture barrier. Seems like untreated wood rots quickly when set directly on concrete. RR ties won't rot but they can ooze the oil that they were treated with and seem prone to checking.
                                         Good Luck,  Bill
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VTXLister

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Re: Railway sleepers V Douglas fir
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2006, 09:43:08 PM »
Thanks for the replies so far.

I already have a roll of damp proof course and roofing felt to hand by the way, as my garage floor sucks up moisture when it rains, a pain but there you are.

So build the wooden frame with steel sub-frame, but isolate the whole thing via rubber mounts - ?

So... (and I don't want to start another big argument here) are we saying that despite Lister recommending solid concrete mounting, the best way forward nowadays is via resilient mounts?

Will concrete mounting result in low frequency vibration 100% of the time?

The only reason I don't want to pour the concrete as per Lister instructions for now, is that:

1) I may be moving house in a few months

2) ...so I will only be running weekends for a few hours, until we move.

The garage *is separate* from the house, but I need to be careful about neighbours (and their delicate China teacups hanging oh so precariously off their Welsh pine dressers).

I hope to balance the engine anyway before running - one thing i will be doing is having the flywheels mpi tested for cracks.

PS - Biobill, I don't ride a Harley, but I do ride a VTX, hence the name!

binnie

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Re: Railway sleepers V Douglas fir
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2006, 11:38:44 PM »
You might check in your farming supply house for rubber cow mats...3/4" thick and cut it to fit with a sharp jig saw blade...3" overhang...and put that down between your cement & the base of your machine. It will act as a dampener for vibration & keep the wooden beams dry. That will give you some experience if it is temporary, as to what you want to do in the future when you are installing it permanently. Cheap & better than felt paper! binnie
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Quinnf

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Re: Railway sleepers V Douglas fir
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2006, 01:47:34 AM »
Cast off truck tire tread that seem to line the roadways in some areas should work well, too.  If you get a piece that has separated from the steel reinforcing belts it will lie flat and be easier to cut than pieces where the belts have broken.

BTW, it recently came to light that Lister acknowledged the option of resilient mounts, so though they illustrate a concrete block, that recommendation's not cast in . . . er . . . cement.

Whatever you do, make sure your engine and generator or whatever you're hooking it up to are connected to the same piece of steel, and that steel is lying on whatever wood frame you choose.  You want everything to jiggle together or it'll look like a fat chick riding a bicycle on a cobblestone street (in a thong?).

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BruceM

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Re: Railway sleepers V Douglas fir
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2006, 02:04:34 AM »
My base is wood, with (6) 5.5" pads of rubber 3/4" thick (shore A 40- soft McMaster.com) under it. The 8" slab does not shake.  Jeff M. used something similar in his garage (with 1" rubber) and it solved his low frequency vibration of the neighbors house problem.

 My setup has only about 20 hours so I can't speak to longevity.  Engine, generator,and compressor are mounted to the wood base. The latter two have hardwood bases. There is very little movement of the engine- about 1/8" of fore-aft movement only; something I hope to reduce by doing more external balancing.  No vibration or movement of either generator head (ST-3) or 3 cylinder 2 stage Eaton compressor have been noted.  The rubber pads were scored on both sides via table saw and glued in place with gorilla glue. (!)

I do think the separate (isolated from slab) block of concrete with grouted steel frame is the best way to go for a permanent installation, but rubber under a wood frame will work for engines which are well balanced. There's no way a "hopper" would work with my setup from what I've read here about some of these engines with bad balance problems. The setup I use was originally built as a temporary test frame to run on my shop sidewalk, but worked well enough with my enginethat I felt I would just use it and see how it held up.


Bruce M
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xyzer

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Re: Railway sleepers V Douglas fir
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2006, 04:30:55 AM »
I hope to balance the engine anyway before running - one thing i will be doing is having the flywheels mpi tested for cracks.
Balance will fix 90% of the how and where to mount issues. I would strongly recomend it before you run the thing. After much beating my head against the wall I have learned much about balancing a lister 6/1 castiron piston engine. If you pay to have it done you won't be happy because the balance guy does not know the correct % to use for the reciprocating mass. I see you are getting an 8/1. Does it have a castiron piston? Is it internaly balanced? Those issues will help but you will still need to know the correct % .I know.(close enough anyway). ..................I found out the hard way!......Another thing sence you mentioned the flywheels. They are made of the toughest shit around! Not good ol grey castiron but a little this and a little that mixed in. If you think they will break easy....LOL...they are tough shit. Your balance guy had better have a few carbide drills laying around he will need them!....think 65% on a 6/1 castiron piston listeroid. The piston is the bugger not the rotating mass! I believe they are balanced (if you wanna call it that) from the factory at 50%.
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Firebrick

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Re: Railway sleepers V Douglas fir
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2006, 02:43:59 PM »
UMMMM. 

You wanted to use wood to save money compared to the cost of steel.  Yes it is high but>>>

If you are putting the resilient mounts, unless they are free cast off tire treads(aligators around here) its going to cost a pretty penny.
How about all those fasteners to mount everything together?
If it needs balancing how much money will you spend there? 
The list goes on and no one really has enough hours to say if it will work or not over the long run(I personally don't think it will hurt anything)


A yard of concrete cost 80 dollars here and would make an excellent base with the bolts that are shiped with your engine.  Few pieces of scrap 2x4's and plywood sheet you have a form that even someone with a PH.D could pour(well maybe not). 
Plus you would have the knowledge that it something that is tried and trued.  Do leave a small gap between the edge of the block and the slab around it. 


VTXLister

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Re: Railway sleepers V Douglas fir
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2006, 10:42:59 PM »
Thanks for all the answers, especially to Ken who went to the trouble of emailing me with piccies.

One thing I am confused about: since the original mounting spec. calls for a yard of concrete, does this not also lead to a lot of vibration?


biobill

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Re: Railway sleepers V Douglas fir
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2006, 11:11:21 PM »
The correct answer is.. uh.... I guess it depends. Your engine will certainly be very happy sitting on that yard. Whether it telegraphs or not isn't completely clear as far as I know. Some do and some don't. Geology probably.
  I just had a thought that might work :o. My jumping jack (vertical soil compactor) and my 'roid seem to have a lot in common in the way they shake the ground. Now this is completely off the cuff, but, I bet if you rented a jumping jack and got a human vibration detector to assist you, you could get a pretty good idea of the vibration transmission qualities of your site.

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