Author Topic: Lister w/ DI and Nat Gas fuel  (Read 10228 times)

dkmc

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Re: Lister w/ DI and Nat Gas fuel
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2006, 01:08:32 AM »
"i know if i was you, i would be looking to find an ST 3 phase head, and would have it setup to power the shop for at least the 3 phase loads"


Yes, and I have an older Warner Swazey 30KVA single bearing altenator. Plus the auto-transfer switch and fully instrumented control panel for it.
It had a 505? 507? Continental 6cyl on it that was backfired and jumped time......I scraped the engine. I'd like to find a 24/2 to run it.
Problem is, I have a few CNC machines, and am concerned about regulation and reliability for running the computer controls.....
I probably need a max of 20KW surge....

Can you suggest a supplier of -good- engines that is in the NYS area, or closest for shipping purposes?
Any used 24/2's out there??

With the generator, controls, and enough assorted hardware lying around, I'm probably wasting time thinking about the economics of the project.
I might be best off doing it and starting the savings for winter 06.......? The Nat Gas supply and controls for that are a mystery to me.
I know I can't just 'run a hose'.....!  ;D  Where would a guy go to collect the parts for the Nat Gas or Propane equipment required?

Any owners nearby?
I did correspond with a fellow in the Geneva, NY area a couple years ago......
I'll post separately.....

Thanks again for the info...!
dan k
Machinist, fabricator, designer, fixer

Firebrick

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Re: Lister w/ DI and Nat Gas fuel
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2006, 04:14:06 PM »
Dan K

What are your 3 phase motors running and how big are they? 

One solution is to run the equipment off of the listeroid complete.  Many old machinery shops had a jackshaft over head or down one wall that ran all the lathes/ and drill presses off of belts.  They were tensioned to engage the individual machines.  Belt drive in this manner is much more efficent than converting mechanical energy into electricity and back again.  I think belts loose somewhere less than 5 percent compared to 20-30 percent for a generator loss(this is just off memory so maybe doug or someone else could help?)  Of course this limits you machine layout and if you have small kids or idiot adults around there is somewhat of a safety issue depending on how you do it.  The other option, if you 3 phase motors are not to big, is to build a phase converter.  They are simple to cobble up but they dont work well as well for large hp electric motors.  Again, I do not know what you are running so these are just general suggestions. 

As for the nozzle to inject propane.  The best thing I have seen to do it is a Cat either nozzle.  It is a 2.5 inch long small diameter brass tube with very fine holes drilled in the sides all over and capped at the end.  At the other end is 1/4 inch pipe threads so the hole shebang can be installed very easy into any intake plenum buy drilling and tapping a 1/4 inch NPT hole.  The nozzle has a small flared male connector on the outside for a secure leak free connection to tubing.  If it can mist either fine enough I am sure that propane would be no problem.  I am sure other brands have them as well.

Procrustes

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Re: Lister w/ DI and Nat Gas fuel
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2006, 10:55:43 PM »
The Nat Gas supply and controls for that are a mystery to me.  I know I can't just 'run a hose'.....!  ;D  Where would a guy go to collect the parts for the Nat Gas or Propane equipment required?

For natural gas you will need some or all of the following, depending on what you do exactly.  For carburetion you need a shutoff, otherwise gas will trickle from the carb when the engine's not running.  Most of these are 12V, but if you have a good memory I guess you could use a manual shutoff too.  I don't recommend it.  There's a problem with shutoffs in that it's hard to know when they've failed.  I've heard that some localities require two shutoffs with a pressure switch inbetween to allow testing.

The carburetor has two parts.  First, a mixer, which is a venturi with a membrane and armature that opens a valve more and more as a vacuum builds up in the venturi.  Second the throttle body sits under the mixer, and contains a butterfly valve to let more or less air in.  This can be mechanical, or some places like Woodward sell electronic ones that work in conjunction with a governor.  If you buy a governor then you will also need and MPU or magnetic pickup which tells the governor how fast the flywheel is turning.

Regulators establish a baseline pressure at the carb's intake.  You can typically adjust this up or down a bit to suit your application.  If you're using compressed gas you will need an auxiliary device that prevents the regulator from icing up.

Impco is a well-known supplier of this equipment.  They have PDF's on their website for the capacities of the various parts.  You will want a 55 series carb as these go to 70hp and 115cfm.  Woodward has exactly the same mixers as Impco, but with different names.  There are some other manufacturers as well but I can't think of the names at the moment.

This equipment is sometimes available at your local propane shop, 4x4 shops (offroaders like propane because they can go at any angle without emptying their carb bowls), forklift shops, and of course Ebay.

dieselgman

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Re: Lister w/ DI and Nat Gas fuel
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2006, 02:27:58 AM »
There are quite a number of natural gas setups that run on Lister HR2 and HR3 machines (and many others) in the oil patch. The engines use a completely different concave piston design and have a spark igniter added in place of the injector in the head. Anyway, there are parts available from these setups in the Canadian and US oil-patch areas that may provide useful parts for tinkering with. I have some experience with Gasoline/Propane conversions but not Diesel/Propane in the ways suggested on this forum. I do know that engine deposits are greatly reduced but at the same time exhaust valve heating becomes an issue so mixture and timing becomes critical to avoid valve and valve seat failures from overheating.

Gary
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Firebrick

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Re: Lister w/ DI and Nat Gas fuel
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2006, 02:26:23 PM »
Quote
I do know that engine deposits are greatly reduced but at the same time exhaust valve heating becomes an issue so mixture and timing becomes critical to avoid valve and valve seat failures from overheating.


This is quite correct on spark ignition engines, especially in the gas fields because some of the fuel can vary in energy pretty rapidly.  Because of this you can go from lean to rich and or vice versa pretty quickly.  Some of your bigger and more expensive engines have woodward controls that check for detonation and vary the gas mixture and timing to keep this from happening.  This is less to a non problem on the supply side of natural gas because it has been processed and mixed sufficiently to even out its energy content. 

However when using it in a diesel these problems dont exsist.  Because they diesels draw in a full air charge every time they dont burn lean unless at one very specific load.  But remember you are only supplanting part of the fuel charge.  As the load increases there should be a optimum fuel ratio spot and as it goes beond that it becomes richer as the injection pumps more fuel in even though more air can not enter resulting in black smoke resulting in a rich mixture.   Unless you rig up some type of complicated injection metering system for the gaseous fuel, one should set the gas amount at small load, because if you set it at a higher load and that load drops, the rack will close on the diesel injection pump and the engine will not burn the gaseous fuel possibly shutting down the engine or causing flames to shoot out the exhaust when it opens again.  If you rig up a varible gas injection system you would really need to pay attention to burning lean but I dont think that anyone here would do such a thing as it would take more money for the controlls than the engine cost