Author Topic: why there are problems with listeroids from india  (Read 24193 times)

okiezeke

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Re: why there are problems with listeroids from india
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2006, 02:19:10 AM »
Have you looked at Lovson's website lately?  The FAQ section addresses some of the quality concerns we all have.  Someone in India has been listening.  Will that result in improved quality?? They sure are saying the right things, but I'll just wait and see.
Zeke
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fattywagonman

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Re: why there are problems with listeroids from india
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2006, 02:48:59 PM »
Hi OM,
Do you think a visit to Rajkot  would be well received? Seeing the process first hand would be a real education.  I have purchase over 20 engines from 2 different manufactures and suspected what you have confirmed. That these guys are just buying parts from various suppliers and assembling engines. How many engines do you think each builder sells a year? If they build 1000 engines and only sell a few to export it's likely more trouble that it's worth.

Thanks for your time and insight,
John

haganes

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Re: why there are problems with listeroids from india
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2006, 06:49:30 AM »
as a retired industrial engineer, i have offered my services free of charge to one supplier to get his quality up to world standards.  i extend this offer to any manufacturer/assembler.  i have worked in the middle east and asia most of my career - and my last 10 years was spent managing heavy equipment.  the issues are many why the quality is not there, but i can list the major elements:

 1) there is no control on raw material quality.  i suffered through cummins shifting its manufacturing to india......broken camshafts up the kazooo.  my 10/1 had an issue on this.

 2) no traceability on the manufacturing process.  nobody knows who did what.

 3) poor management.  too many managers, too many helpers, not enough workers who do the work.

 4) no acceptance criteria.  the only criteria is that if the engine runs.

there are many small issues also.

captain steven
B & W Alpha 404 (280 hp @ 350 rpm)
Mercedes D231 (100 hp)
Lister TS2
Lister TR1
GTC 10/1 Listeroid

Doug

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Re: why there are problems with listeroids from india
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2006, 05:59:41 PM »
I would like to see a third party with proper credentials certify that the parts and quality control of an engine meets a minimum standard.

I think the work would be more than a retired fellow would want to take on.

If someone there takes you up on it and you can provide a document with stamp with an engine, I'll buy it.

Doug

hotater

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Re: why there are problems with listeroids from india
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2006, 06:37:35 PM »
Doug---

How much are you willing to pay??
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Doug

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Re: why there are problems with listeroids from india
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2006, 06:39:31 PM »
That depends Jack with what is on offer....

Doug

hotater

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Re: why there are problems with listeroids from india
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2006, 06:55:05 PM »
A "Certified" engine would have to be made of only parts fitting specs and I'm betting there would be a bunch in the 'stems and seeds' pile before enough would be found for a 'good' engine.

Without  a larger market to drive it, any 'certified' engine would be VERY expensive.  I have one running now that has been checked in every manner and new parts made where needed, but there are parts 'not right' by Honda standards in it still.

I'm not sure which would be faster and easier in the long run---machining a rough cast iron parts from scratch or sorting through a bunch of Indian machined parts trying to find a good one.

Years ago there was a semi-inlet gunstock company that let QC lag and tools become worn and patterns were copies of many generations of patterns.  It became a joke.  By the time the mistakes were handled there was more time in the job than it was worth...and the job STILL remained to be done.  They were an old company put out of business nearly overnight when that became recognized in the trade.  It was resurrected by a new owner with new patterns, sharp tools in good shape.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

SCOTT

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Re: why there are problems with listeroids from india
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2006, 07:31:49 PM »
Doug
I met with a rep from Anand Enterprise this past summer here in the US.  His name is DK Patel, you may know of him, he works with Atul.  Anyway we had a nice long meeting where I detailed several pages of QC measures I asked them implement.  Among the processes I asked them to put in place was positive measurement of all critical components against a know standard.  I was informed they already did this.  I have every reason believe this is the case, I found D.K. Patel to be very honest, when I made requests they were not willing to, or could accommodate they said no.  This was not a one sided conversation where the manufacturer just said yes to every request, never intending to live up to the promises made.

I am expecting a shipment of engines next month; they should contain documentation signed by the assembler/QC person detailing the acceptable range of each component along with the actual measurement the individual component in each engine.  This is easily verifiable by tearing into an engine and “auditing” the accuracy of these reports.

This is not an independent party verifying quality, but it is a start, compared to present where there is little in the way of verifiable QC taking place. 

The sad truth is that there is simply not enough demand to justify a western style manufacturing process.  We have to do the research and chose the best manufacturer we can find, someone who understands that if they produce a good quality product the business will follow. 

On the importer side of the equation there needs to be a reasonable return on investment of both time and money.  It is not a trivial task to import these engines all the way from India. There are multiple factors the end user never considers including but not limited to warehousing, customs and dock workers.  It is a royal pain in the ass.  To further complicate matters my manufacturer is trying to impose a rather large price increase, in the neighborhood of 40%.  I have been selling 6/1 for $1500 prior to this price increase and if I were to pass on a 40% price increase that would drive the final sales price to $2100 will the market bear this price?  I don’t know.

To add another layer of cost in the form of an independent QC guy is just not feasible at this time in my opinion.  If it turns out that the 40% price increase sticks and the market is not willing to pay the extra money I will not bring any more in.  One route I will not go is buying from the lowest cost producer, where quality is not in question, it is crap.

As with everything else, you truly do get what you pay for, and I think we are at about the limits of what people are willing to pay for Lister type engines made in India.  Perhaps some of the small Chinese Cummins/Onan clones would be a viable alternative to the Lister types.  To me the engine is a tool used to produce a desired ouptput, If a better tool can be used to make the job eaiser/better then I would consider it.

Best regards
Scott
net metering with a 6/1 in Connecticut
12/1
6/1

Doug

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Re: why there are problems with listeroids from india
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2006, 08:17:51 PM »
Yes Scott I also spoke with DK while he was in New Jersy....

And yes he did have some possitive things to say and I judge a man of character.

I also know about the Lister QC program Atul told me about it, and he is working to extend it to the Petter types.

Many of the problems are beyond the control of the builders best intentions when the supliers are actively trying to slip off speck parts and hide flaws.

Doug

haganes

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Re: why there are problems with listeroids from india
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2006, 02:00:36 AM »
I would like to see a third party with proper credentials certify that the parts and quality control of an engine meets a minimum standard.

I think the work would be more than a retired fellow would want to take on.

If someone there takes you up on it and you can provide a document with stamp with an engine, I'll buy it.

Doug

gee doug,  you don't know me, or have any clue what i can bring to the table. 

captain steven
B & W Alpha 404 (280 hp @ 350 rpm)
Mercedes D231 (100 hp)
Lister TS2
Lister TR1
GTC 10/1 Listeroid

Doug

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Re: why there are problems with listeroids from india
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2006, 02:10:35 AM »
Your right but if you are an engineer, were in the engine buisness and you are willling to try and do something possitive, thats a hell of a step forward from what happened so far.

Never met an engineer who would risk that iron ring or stick his neck on the block without seriously considering his actions...

Doug

fattywagonman

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Re: why there are problems with listeroids from india
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2006, 05:51:35 AM »
I don't give a crap about certified engines or credentialed inspectors, this would just add cost to an engine that is already being priced out of our market. Besides the Indians already have ISO certification and it's not doing the trick so adding more red tape isn't going to help.
If you think it's not possible to manufacture with quality in India think again.

 "Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd. received the coveted Deming Application Prize for 2003 - considered the Nobel Prize for manufacturing, for establishing Total Quality Management in all business operations. Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd. is the only tractor company in the world to achieve this honor."

 
For those who don't know, Edward Demming was the one who taught the Japanese about quality after WW2. He taught quality from the bottom up...and the inside out...
In the Demming world it's important for the guy making the parts to know why it's important to make a good parts... so he actually wants to make good parts.. and he does it without being watched... Demming was so instrumental in Japans manufacturing success that he is considered a national hero in Japan because of his teachings. China and Korea have also been a students of Demming's work and so has the Mahindra tractor company in India.

CD in BC

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Re: why there are problems with listeroids from india
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2006, 05:55:42 AM »
Someone who is serious about this should move there and establish their own factory.  Offer better money and you'll have your pick of the workers - though in all honesty, why not just take a few original Listers and start afresh in somewhere more congenial in every way, say Thailand?

The Indians seem to be a lot like most Western companies since 1945: busy trying to figure out how to squeeze more $$ out of the customer ASAP instead of how to improve the product and build brand loyalty and market share.

Demand for these engines has got only one place to go.  How Lister missed the boat....Pity.

As for Denning, he taught the Japanese modern manufacuturing methods such as JITD.  I'm afraid we no longer have anything to teach the Japanese about quality - if we ever did. They've been quality fanatics for centuries.  Their companies not only work together to conquer foreign markets, they plan for decades in advance of the next quarterly report. :o  They don't pay their CEOs 400 times what their average worker makes either.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 11:04:55 PM by CD in BC »

fattywagonman

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Re: why there are problems with listeroids from india
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2006, 06:01:33 AM »
More on Demming and TQM... and why did it work so well in Asian cultures but failed in North America...

Demming's 14 Point Plan for TQM
formerly at  http://www.educe.dabsol.co.uk/Quality/Q_Demming.htm
(listed, and expanded upon by Mr. Dave Wilson)

    * Point 1: Create constancy of purpose toward improvement of the product and service so as to become competitive, stay in business and provide jobs.
    * Point 2: Adopt the new philosophy. We are in a new economic age. We no longer need live with commonly  accepted levels of delay, mistake, defective material and defective workmanship.
    * Point 3: Cease dependence on mass inspection; require, instead, statistical evidence that quality is built in.
    * Point 4: Improve the quality of incoming materials. End the practice of awarding business on the basis of a price alone. Instead, depend on meaningful measures of quality, along with price.
    * Point 5: Find the problems; constantly improve the system of production and service. There should be continual reduction of waste and continual improvement of quality in every activity so as to yield a continual rise in productivity  and a decrease in costs.
    * Point 6: Institute modern methods of training and education for all. Modern methods of on-the-job training use  control charts to determine whether a worker has been properly trained and is able to perform the job correctly.  Statistical methods must be used to discover when training is complete.
    * Point 7: Institute modern methods of supervision. The emphasis of production supervisors must be to help people to  do a better job. Improvement of quality will automatically improve productivity. Management must prepare to take immediate action on response from supervisors concerning problems such as inherited defects, lack of maintenance  of machines, poor tools or fuzzy operational definitions.
    * Point 8: Fear is a barrier to improvement so drive out fear by encouraging effective two-way communication and  other mechanisms that will enable 'everybody to be part of change, and to belong to it'. Fear can often be found at all   levels in an organisation: fear of change, fear of the fact that it may be necessary to learn a better way of working and fear that their positions might be usurped frequently affect middle and higher management, whilst on the  shop-floor, workers can also fear the effects of change on their jobs.
    * Point 9: 'Break down barriers between departments and staff areas. People in different areas such as research, design, sales, administration and production must work in teams to tackle problems that may be encountered with products or service'.
    * Point 10: 'Eliminate the use of slogans, posters and exhortations for the workforce, demanding zero defects and  new levels of productivity without providing methods. Such exhortations only create adversarial relationships
    * Point 11: 'Eliminate work standards that prescribe numerical quotas for the workforce and numerical goals for  people in management. Substitute aids and helpful leadership
    * Point 12: Remove the barriers that rob hourly workers, and people in management, of their right to pride of  workmanship. This implies, abolition of the annual merit rating (appraisal of performance) and of management by  objective
    * Point 13: 'Institute a vigorous programme of education, and encourage self-improvement for everyone. What an   organization needs is not just good people; it needs people that are improving with education.
    * Point 14: Top management's permanent commitment to ever-improving quality and productivity must be clearly  defined and a management structure created that will continuously take action to follow the preceding 13 points."

..
TQM
 
 
 
 

 
   ....    The history of how Japanese came to be the evangelists of TQM - and how the Americans tried to catch up
 http://www.acq.osd.mil/io/se/quality/asqc_3-99.htm
" During the mid 1980s, U.S. producers who complacently held the market share for so long after World War II were now starting to lose market share to the Japanese. After World War II, the Japanese had embraced statistical quality control, taught to them by American lecturers including Dr. Demming and others who had been invited to Japan, to help them convert from military to commercial production and reverse the reputation of poor quality goods."

"TQM has been  offered as the reason for the success of Japanese business by many observers, and Japanese versions of TQM have been shipped back not only to  the US and the Americas, but also Europe. Following massive Japanese investment in other countries such as Thailand, and Singapore saw TQM  become popular expecially in those countries where Japanese investment was substantial. Japanese management expertise often came accompanied with TQM, and it also offered a way to manage diverse business systems and  investments for the Japanese owners. However implementation has not always been successful..."
 http://www.apmforum.com/emerald/tqm-asia-research.htm
.
TQM
 
 
 
 

 
   ....    An interesting rant about how, to some, TQM is bad for North Americans
 http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39baeaf4090c.htm

"TQM was the brainchild of the late W. Edwards Deming; it supposedly helped Japan with its postwar economic recovery. But perhaps that was because it meshed with Japanese culture. It does not follow that TQM is a good fit for organizing America...."Quality" sounds like goodness, pure and simple. But with TQM, quality is not the product but the process. To institute the process, corporate trainers must bring about a "total cultural change," wherein all
employees shed their individualism for a unified set of corporate values. Workers undergo hours of group training before they blend into the TQM process.... To tell employees upfront they must adopt an entirely new way of thinking can be frightening..."
..
 
TQM    Tim Richardson -  1998 speech

"TQM worked well in a homogenous culture such as Japan, but the challenge to apply TQM in North America is a multi-cultural workforce and a high Individualism Index..."

TQM was considered, by the Americans in the mid 1990's, so important to understand, and try to apply to keep up with the Japanese, that they even taught the concept in the U.S. military.

Quinnf

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Re: why there are problems with listeroids from india
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2006, 06:37:43 AM »
FWIW, I agree there's a cultural component at work here. 

At the end of WW II Japan's industry had been thoroughly trashed.  There was no way to go but up.  The islands were isolated from the mainland of Asia which was/is inhabited by people long hostile to their people.  The Japanese shared a common heritage, language and culture.  Very different conditions from modern India.  The cultural conditions and the motivating factors are very different. 

Hate to say it, but could it be that Japan's success with Demming's plan was just the result of a fortunate confluence of events?

Quinn
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