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Author Topic: THE ENGINE ROOM  (Read 16875 times)

SHIPCHIEF

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THE ENGINE ROOM
« on: January 10, 2006, 06:47:24 AM »
   This new topic is about the ideal ENGINE ROOM.
Please share your ideas so we can all build better power plants.
   I just picked up a free 250 gallon outside home heating oil tank. It is pretty rusty on the outside, but looks solid. If it passes inspection I'll paint it up nice and use it for the outside fuel STORAGE TANK, Someday i could get a transfer pump and filter to move fuel to the DAY TANK. Meanwhile I could just put the DAY TANK under the STORAGE TANK valve to fill it up.
The DAY TANK is an old 6 gallon twin hose Johnson outboard tank, which will have both the supply and return lines, so plumbing is easy, and the fire / spill potential is less than using from the 250 gallon tank.
   I think others before have mentioned that these engines should not be up against a wall. My corner of the groj that I call the engine room did place the left end of the crankshaft about 3 inches from the wall. NOT GOOD I couldn't even take the flywheel off without dismounting the engine frome the generator frame.
    I have an automotive radiator for cooling, But I've seen those old cast iron home heat radiators, Iv'e just gotta have those! they look like LISTER all over! Especially in Hunter green.
You can see my set up in the coppermine gallery (before I took it apart for sand removal and a sub-frame upgrade)
    A cheap secure engine room could be built out of a 20 foot intermodal shipping container. They do not cost much. When you are not around you could lock the doors up tight. Being made of steel,(with a wood floor) you could weld in the exhaust pipe mounts, cooling lines & wire penetrations etc. The engine beds could span the wood and connect to the steel side frames...? Or be isolated? If you built everything on the inside it could be portable ;D
Scott E
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

n2toh

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Re: THE ENGINE ROOM
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2006, 06:58:51 AM »
   This new topic is about the ideal ENGINE ROOM.
Please share your ideas so we can all build better power plants.
   I just picked up a free 250 gallon outside home heating oil tank. It is pretty rusty on the outside, but looks solid. If it passes inspection I'll paint it up nice and use it for the outside fuel STORAGE TANK, Someday i could get a transfer pump and filter to move fuel to the DAY TANK. Meanwhile I could just put the DAY TANK under the STORAGE TANK valve to fill it up.
The DAY TANK is an old 6 gallon twin hose Johnson outboard tank, which will have both the supply and return lines, so plumbing is easy, and the fire / spill potential is less than using from the 250 gallon tank.
   I think others before have mentioned that these engines should not be up against a wall. My corner of the groj that I call the engine room did place the left end of the crankshaft about 3 inches from the wall. NOT GOOD I couldn't even take the flywheel off without dismounting the engine frome the generator frame.
    I have an automotive radiator for cooling, But I've seen those old cast iron home heat radiators, Iv'e just gotta have those! they look like LISTER all over! Especially in Hunter green.
You can see my set up in the coppermine gallery (before I took it apart for sand removal and a sub-frame upgrade)
    A cheap secure engine room could be built out of a 20 foot intermodal shipping container. They do not cost much. When you are not around you could lock the doors up tight. Being made of steel,(with a wood floor) you could weld in the exhaust pipe mounts, cooling lines & wire penetrations etc. The engine beds could span the wood and connect to the steel side frames...? Or be isolated? If you built everything on the inside it could be portable ;D
Scott E

I like your idea about the 20' container, but they are not permitted on private property in my area.
About 60 years is all it takes to make science fiction a reality.

Joe

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Re: THE ENGINE ROOM
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2006, 02:34:40 PM »

You’ve already given me an idea on set up for my engine room…piggy back a day tank under the main …fuel transfer would be very easy!   My main tank is about the same size as you are working with but had planned on putting it inside so as to avoid temperature swings/moisture…I’m still undecided.  On testing a tank…I’ve been told to fill the tank with water and let it sit for a while to check for leaks …sometimes an older tank will weep from the weight of the fluid as the bottom of the tank flexes.

Hotater had another good idea when he had mentioned putting a steel topped work bench near the engine.

Joe
Nothing is easy...if it were...anybody could do it.

2005 Power Solutions  6/1-ST5

n2toh

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Re: THE ENGINE ROOM
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2006, 03:11:54 PM »

You’ve already given me an idea on set up for my engine room…piggy back a day tank under the main …fuel transfer would be very easy!   My main tank is about the same size as you are working with but had planned on putting it inside so as to avoid temperature swings/moisture…I’m still undecided.  On testing a tank…I’ve been told to fill the tank with water and let it sit for a while to check for leaks …sometimes an older tank will weep from the weight of the fluid as the bottom of the tank flexes.

Hotater had another good idea when he had mentioned putting a steel topped work bench near the engine.

Joe


Steel work benches rock for welding stuff, just ground the bench and they you don't have to fuss with the clamp.

Another good method for leak testing is the transducer test. They use that in light of the fact they banned pressure testing underground fuel oil tanks in my area.
About 60 years is all it takes to make science fiction a reality.

BruceM

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Re: THE ENGINE ROOM
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2006, 05:39:03 PM »
Scott,
The acoustics of the shipping container would be a project to overcome. I have one on my site now for storage.  If you drop something inside, it's quite audible from a distance.

Here's what I'm up to.  Since I haven't finished and don't have operational experience, I can't tell you which parts I've screwed up, yet!

Block was on allocation here due to cement shortage, so I built my 10'x10' "House of Lister" stick framed.  I "wallpapered" the drywall suface with 1 mil aluminum foil before installing it.  This faces in and the seams are taped with foil tape.  This makes the interior walls nearly fireproof, and non-absorbing of diesel and fumes.

Double walled would be best for sound, but since it's over a hill from my house site I just went with 2x6 framing, R19 wall insulation, R30 ceiling. 

The  slab is 7" thick, 10" under the Lister.  I didn't pour a separate support for the Lister due to the remoteness of the site and the extra concrete delivery fees.  Instead I'm following Jeff Mayer's scheme and mounting my wood mounting beam frame to the slab via 3/4" thick shore A 40 rubber from McMaster.  I scored both sides of the rubber 1/16" with my table saw and will use gorilla glue for mounting.  I'll just postion the engine on it's "sled", jack it up a couple inches, and then slide the glued pads under it. There will be 6 pads, 5x5 1/2".  Four within a few inches of the corners of the Lister base.

I used a metal roof bare over purlins, since shingle roofs don't hold up in our high UV, high wind environment.  I sprayed the underside of the metal with urethane foam to keep it from resonating.  (I didn't isolate the ceiling from the trusses for sound isolation as again I thought this was overkill.)

For engine room cooling I opted for 3 attic louver vents (14x24) backed by furnace filters for dust and sound.  I'll add a sound baffle of accoustic ceiling panels on the inside if needed.  There's no vent on the wall facing the house site (over a hill). The ceiling has two 12" mechanical-temperature controlled dampers that lead to two 12" wind turbines on the roof via insulated flex duct (again to keep sound from resonating the roof) in a surpentine path.  Our summer temperatures can be 100 degrees. We usually have a 40 degree temperature swing each day.  For winter I'll have closing insulated doors over the vents and there's a south facing double paned (privacy glass) window that allows in direct sunlight for some passive heating in the winter when the sun angle is lower.

I don't have pictures from the competed building yet, but now the turbine vents and all trim are on and it's time to move in the Lister so I can work out the fuel, cooling and exhaust plumbing.

I put a few photos on the coppermine site.

Best Wishes,
Bruce
Snowflake, AZ




SHIPCHIEF

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Re: THE ENGINE ROOM
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2006, 05:59:59 PM »
I love it!
I was trying to justify 12' x 12'. You have selected 10' x 10'. That looks like a good compromise.
I have an attic fan to draw air thru the radiator, but a roof turbine would be better as long as there is wind. Perhaps the air will thermosyphon upward around a hot radiator if the column is tall enough?
I like the south side double pane window idea.
Steel work bench, great. A Log desk is a good idea, to keep your logbook for performance measurement, also other related books and paperwork. Maybe a file cabinet for those receipts you don't want to add up?
Some kind of control panel for engine / generator control.
Power plugs around the walls and what kind of lighting?
Fire suppresion?
Electric panel / meters, as required, or desired for that 'Compleat Engine Room'
About intemodal containers: they can be covered with siding and a peak roof.....camoflage for the urban environment! The radiated noise may be harder...
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

BruceM

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Re: THE ENGINE ROOM
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2006, 06:28:03 PM »
Scott, my present plan is to mount the truck radiator on the outside of the shed, with no fan, thermosiphon flow.  I also wish to find a nice big cast iron radiator, but they are rare in AZ.

Time will tell if that will be sufficient in the summer.

More photos posted.

kyradawg

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Re: THE ENGINE ROOM
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2006, 08:24:34 PM »
Peace&Love, Darren
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 07:49:51 PM by kyradawg »

BruceM

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Re: THE ENGINE ROOM
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2006, 09:27:55 PM »
Yep, lots of nice cast iron radiators in Michigan and Virginia with ebay listings.  Several hundred pounds each, they are always sold "pickup only" since the freight would be prohibitive.


rgroves

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Re: THE ENGINE ROOM
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2006, 10:11:18 PM »
My engine room is still in progress, but here's what I'm doing.
We live on an old farmstead in central Kansas.  One of my outbuildings is an old red barn. As i was poking around in it, I noticed that one end had some concrete footings.  I excavated them.  It turned out to be an old milk parlor.  So when i was done with the big dig, I had two parallel trenches .  One was 3 feet wide, 24 feet long, and 10 inches deep. The other was 13 inches wide, 8 inches deep, and 24 feet long.  They are separated by a 25 inch wide concrete walkway, also 24 feet long. 

I needed a lot of space, since I have engines coming through here from time to time. I wanted to be able to mount multiple engines and isolate them from each other.  I ended up with 5 pads.  First I bought a bunch of railroad ties, and cut them in half.  That left me with timbers that were 6 1/2 by 8 1/2 inches by 4 1/2 feet.  Next i bedded those ties four across, laid on edge, in a layer of rock screenings from a local quarry. Screenings are a mixture of sizes, 3/8 inch down to fines, and when they compact they form a tightly locked mass of compacted rock.  In the narrow trench i laid another half tie, also bedded in screenings.  When that layer was done, I had 5 pads roughly 5 by 7 feet.  I separated the pads from each other with more railroad ties at right angles to the parallel ties. Then I moved in another load of screenings and covered everything. 

The purpose of the screenings is to add mass, and to link the ties together as the screenings settle and compact. I vibrated the individual pads by bolting a timber across the rows, fastening it to each railroad tie, and then bolting a Changfa 175 engine to the timber. That's one of the smaller Changfas, and it's not dynamically balanced.  Which means it shakes when it runs.  Which is how I vibrated the rock screenings to compact them. When i was done with all five pads, the rock screenings had settled quite a bit so i spread another layer of them and did it again. By the time that process was done, the railroad ties were nicely linked to each other by compacted rock screenings. I laid one more thin layer on top, as a substrate for the next layer.

Now came the fun part.  At right angles to the railroad ties, I laid 3 x 12x 7 foot bridge plank.  The planks are green rough-sawn oak (which is pretty affordable here in the midwest, from Missouri sawmills)   Repeated the Changfa shakedown, added a little more screenings, and then I lag bolted every bridge plank to every railroad tie, 5 lags in all on each plank.

That's where it is now.  Each pad is 10 inches thick, 5 feet wide by 7 feet, with a big load of gravel integrated into it. Overall i used about 4 tons of screenings.
Now i am finishing a ramp on one end, where I can back a trailer up onto the pad to load and unload engines. More ties, screenings, and bridge plank.  It slants to the ground outside the barn, so I used pressure treated timbers.

Next I'll insulate the walls of the barn for sound proofing.  The pads are isolated from the walls. In the rest of the barn I'll build an extended workshop for engines and oilseed presses in there.  And in the hayloft, a wood working shop.

The electricity from the engine shed will come to my house by buried power line, into a small wash house that houses my batteries and inverters. 

That's probably more than you all wanted to know, but it's been a big buttload of work and I'm glad to have it as far along as I do.

 
   This new topic is about the ideal ENGINE ROOM.
Please share your ideas so we can all build better power plants.
   I just picked up a free 250 gallon outside home heating oil tank. It is pretty rusty on the outside, but looks solid. If it passes inspection I'll paint it up nice and use it for the outside fuel STORAGE TANK, Someday i could get a transfer pump and filter to move fuel to the DAY TANK. Meanwhile I could just put the DAY TANK under the STORAGE TANK valve to fill it up.
The DAY TANK is an old 6 gallon twin hose Johnson outboard tank, which will have both the supply and return lines, so plumbing is easy, and the fire / spill potential is less than using from the 250 gallon tank.
   I think others before have mentioned that these engines should not be up against a wall. My corner of the groj that I call the engine room did place the left end of the crankshaft about 3 inches from the wall. NOT GOOD I couldn't even take the flywheel off without dismounting the engine frome the generator frame.
    I have an automotive radiator for cooling, But I've seen those old cast iron home heat radiators, Iv'e just gotta have those! they look like LISTER all over! Especially in Hunter green.
You can see my set up in the coppermine gallery (before I took it apart for sand removal and a sub-frame upgrade)
    A cheap secure engine room could be built out of a 20 foot intermodal shipping container. They do not cost much. When you are not around you could lock the doors up tight. Being made of steel,(with a wood floor) you could weld in the exhaust pipe mounts, cooling lines & wire penetrations etc. The engine beds could span the wood and connect to the steel side frames...? Or be isolated? If you built everything on the inside it could be portable ;D
Scott E
A country boy can survive - Hank Williams Jr.

BruceM

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Re: THE ENGINE ROOM
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2006, 10:26:54 PM »
Russell, That sounds like a great engine room  in the making.  I saw your web site and think that what you're doing (renewable fuels to farmers) is fantastic.  I wish you great success and thank you for sharing your most interesting multi-engine engine room work with us.  Photos, soon, please!

Best Wishes,
Bruce
Snowflake, AZ


n2toh

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Re: THE ENGINE ROOM
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2006, 07:09:12 AM »
What would it take to make the room withstand a flywheel burst? A useful thing to have if you want to room atached to your house.
About 60 years is all it takes to make science fiction a reality.

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: THE ENGINE ROOM
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2006, 07:20:17 AM »
Flywheel burst? Or walking off the end of the crank? They always go out in the plane of rotation, so like a loaded gun, always point it in a safe direction.
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

kpgv

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Re: THE ENGINE ROOM
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2006, 08:05:03 AM »
REALLY Securely anchored "Chain Link Fence" might do it... :o :o :o :o :o

Kevin

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: THE ENGINE ROOM
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2006, 05:13:53 PM »
H.A.D.
Heat Activated Device.
These are installed over a potential fire source. The ones we use are mechanical, as they are heated the pressure inside increases enough to trigger the release of a CO2 bottle. The CO2 releases into the engine room also releases spring loaded ventillation dampers to hold the CO2 in the engine room.
The volume of the room determines the size of the CO2 bank.
Scott E
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's