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Author Topic: 12/2 vs 1/14  (Read 8300 times)

hoffman

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12/2 vs 1/14
« on: November 15, 2006, 09:35:19 PM »
This'll be for back-up power generation and general piddling around  ;D

Anyone have any input and reasons.  I'm familiar with the AL piston, RPM of each engine, oil pump, fuel consumption, simplicity plus the DI vs IDI etc. Lot's of fun to be had searching this forum!

It would be great to hear from someone who has had direct experience with each.

Procrustes

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Re: 12/2 vs 1/14
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2006, 11:10:12 PM »
Here's everything I can think of.  I addressed some things you say you're familiar with on the supposition that too much information is better than too little.

12/2 produces cleaner power, with an impulse every other stroke as opposed to one impulse in four strokes with the one-banger.

The 14/1 is sometimes (usually? always?) DI, as opposed to the more common IDI, as you noted.

If you want to burn vegetable or motor oil, the consensus seems to be that IDI is better, though there is anecdotal evidence of the GM-90 series of DI Listeroids doing well on such heavy oils.

You might study the price of two 6/1's in place of a 12/2.  When I was doing research it seemed I could get the dual 6/1's for almost the same price, which is a better deal in a couple of ways: you're more likely to have some power, and you have some capacity to run low and high loads by driving a single gen head with one or two engines.  There are some gearing and clutching issues to be resolved in this scenario.

You seem to be aware the the 14/1 DI is more economical in terms of fuel.  Some object to the differing expansion characteristics of aluminum pistons and iron blocks and the increased need for lubrication on the alloy piston for cooling and I've also heard tell of an enhanced capacity for the alloy piston to seize.

DI is generally louder isn't it?

The 14 typically runs at a higher RPM, and engine wear occurs as the square of RPM.  It will also be noisier than a 650 RPM machine.  George at utterpower.com opines that the 650 RPM machines have a more relaxing sound than the higher RPM Listeroids, but I wouldn't know as I've never heard the higher RPM ones.

Ashwamegh 12/2's have, or used to have, a proclivity to break idler gears.

12/2's do not always lubricate as well as 6/1's, so you might favor one with an oil pump over the conventional splash lubrication.

Spare part convenience is paramount IMO.  The 14/1 has a non-standard bore/stroke, right?  Some 12/2 parts are different from 6/1's.  The standard IDI 6/1 is going to be the easiest to get parts for.

aqmxv

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Re: 12/2 vs 1/14
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2006, 12:37:34 AM »
I wouldn't argue with a word of what procrustes said.

I'll add/reinforce:

Parts commonality might be a concern with the 14/1

If my listeroid had an aluminum piston, I'd definitely have a sacrificial anti-friction coating on the skirt, and carefully measure piston-bore clearance.

I opted for an IDI 6/1 of pretty much "Indian standard" specification.  It has the roller bearings and a splash-only lube system, but is otherwise very close to the Dursley original.  If my importer goes under, nearly anybody can get me rocker arms, cylidner heads, bearings, valves, etc, that fit.

6/1 Metro IDI for home trigen

hoffman

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Re: 12/2 vs 1/14
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2006, 12:55:04 AM »
Thanks for the input guys!  Budget will be a big consideration and the 14/1 seems to fit the bill.  God knows how much it'll cost to get one of these to Ga.

I had given some thought to a 6/1 but I really want a gen that will fire off my central AC should the need arise. I have given some thought to the parts availability of the 6/1's though.

I've also considered a Changfa but they don't have the same appeal as the Listers.

I hope that either route will be better and cheaper than a "big box" genset...
« Last Edit: November 16, 2006, 12:58:12 AM by hoffman »

biobill

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Re: 12/2 vs 1/14
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2006, 01:11:57 AM »

I hope that either route will be better and cheaper than a "big box" genset...

Best leave it at better ;D

      Bill
Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw

Procrustes

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Re: 12/2 vs 1/14
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2006, 02:28:51 AM »
I hope that either route will be better and cheaper than a "big box" genset...

Yet another route is to build a generator with an automotive engine.  If you have natural gas or a propane tank this could be ideal.  With all new or remanufactured parts you can build a 30kW genny for $3,000 or so.

Mine is a slant six running at 1800 RPM for about 65hp, directly coupled to a 30kW ST head.    Winco charges $15,000 for something similar, albeit with a much fancier head.  This gen is oversized so that I can eliminate my electric subpanel and still not worry about ruining a pump or worrying about when the refrigerator turns on or whatever.  It is a lot of work though.  Here's a parts list:

   Impco CA55-500 mixer (natural gas/LP carb)
   Woodward/Dyna PF31 actuator/throttle body
   Chrysler 225ci slant six engine
   Dyna DPG-2103 (?) governor
   Guardian Couplings "FH" style coupling (bolts to flywheel)
   I-beams
   Cement
   Siding to match your house
   Radiator, muffler, belts, hoses, etc

I love the Listeroid, but as a practical matter I don't want to store the fuel  I've become the widely ridiculed Gentleman Collector.  Well, minus the gentleman part that is.

sid

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Re: 12/2 vs 1/14
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2006, 02:31:51 AM »
if you live in ga. you have a dealer close by in n.c.// he should have engines in a few weeks/sid
15 hp fairbanks morris1932/1923 meadows mill
8 hp stover 1923
8 hp lg lister
1932 c.s bell hammer mill
4 hp witte 1917
5 hp des jardin 1926
3 hp mini petters
2hp hercules 1924
1 1/2 briggs.etc

biobill

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Re: 12/2 vs 1/14
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2006, 02:50:17 AM »
Procrustes, shame on you.  It's my recollection that the 225/6 had sparkplugs :P
Off grid since 1990
6/1 Metro DI living in basement, cogen
6/1 Metro IDI running barn & biodiesel processer
VW 1.6 diesels all over the place
Isuzu Boxtruck, Ford Backhoe, all running on biodiesel
Needs diesel lawnmower & chainsaw

Procrustes

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Re: 12/2 vs 1/14
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2006, 04:37:42 AM »
Procrustes, shame on you.  It's my recollection that the 225/6 had sparkplugs :P

I know, I know.  A few years back the utility ran gas along my road, not even sure why as the road doesn't lead anywhere and not many folks live out here.  But it's hard to go to the trouble of stockpiling diesel when I have an unlimited supply of fuel.

I still use the 6/1 to lure the ladies into my home of course.  As has been stated here before, it's a chick magnet.

listerdiesel

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Re: 12/2 vs 1/14
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2006, 08:13:35 AM »
12/2 produces cleaner power, with an impulse every other stroke as opposed to one impulse in four strokes with the one-banger.

The Lister 12/2 and CE etc all produce 2 power pulses followed by two exhaust strokes, making the engine sound 'lopsided' when starting up. The cranks are at 180 degrees to each other. I don't know if the Indian engines have the same arrangement.

Picture of a new 12/2 Lister crank at:

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Ebay/ListerCrank.jpg

Peter

firefly

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Re: 12/2 vs 1/14
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2006, 12:20:15 PM »
What part of GA are you from? I have a friend with a 10/1 (i think) near Atlanta. I don't know if he has it set up to run his home but he had the engine running.

Firefly
- Powerline 6/1  ST5
- BMW 524TD

sid

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Re: 12/2 vs 1/14
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2006, 12:42:27 PM »
I live in atlanta. email me some time and i will pass along some info on engines// sid
15 hp fairbanks morris1932/1923 meadows mill
8 hp stover 1923
8 hp lg lister
1932 c.s bell hammer mill
4 hp witte 1917
5 hp des jardin 1926
3 hp mini petters
2hp hercules 1924
1 1/2 briggs.etc

Procrustes

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Re: 12/2 vs 1/14
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2006, 05:28:37 PM »
12/2 produces cleaner power, with an impulse every other stroke as opposed to one impulse in four strokes with the one-banger.

The Lister 12/2 and CE etc all produce 2 power pulses followed by two exhaust strokes, making the engine sound 'lopsided' when starting up. The cranks are at 180 degrees to each other. I don't know if the Indian engines have the same arrangement.

Picture of a new 12/2 Lister crank at:

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Ebay/ListerCrank.jpg

Peter


Thanks for correcting my misunderstanding.

listerdiesel

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Re: 12/2 vs 1/14
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2006, 09:38:13 PM »
12/2 produces cleaner power, with an impulse every other stroke as opposed to one impulse in four strokes with the one-banger.

The Lister 12/2 and CE etc all produce 2 power pulses followed by two exhaust strokes, making the engine sound 'lopsided' when starting up. The cranks are at 180 degrees to each other. I don't know if the Indian engines have the same arrangement.

Picture of a new 12/2 Lister crank at:

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Ebay/ListerCrank.jpg

Peter


Thanks for correcting my misunderstanding.

For someone like me, brought up on 360 degree crank's on British motorcycles, it was a bit of a culture shock to realise that Lister and others had 180 degree cranks looooooooong before Honda and their Super Dream 250cc bike in the 1960's!

Peter

hoffman

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Re: 12/2 vs 1/14
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2006, 10:12:38 PM »
Right now I live in Warner Robins but I'm selling my house (And shop  :'( ) on the 1st of Dec.  I'm moving to Schley County and I'll have more land to build a BIGGER SHOP  :D

I'm building a house down there so all my plans/projects are on hold for a while until the house is finished early next year. I have convinced my wife that a stand-by gennie would be a good thing at the new place.

I'm actually planning a generator shed that will also hold the mower/ lawn equipment that always seems to be in the way in the shop.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2006, 10:15:07 PM by hoffman »