LIster Engine EPA Regs

[AuburnTiger]

I am looking into the purchase of a lister engine.  The vendor is telling me that there are EPA regs that take effect in 2007 that will cause the price to go up by several $1000.  Is this the case or is it a closing pitch?

[JohnF13]

There is no reason for the prices to go up thousands of dollars - unless they are going to make the engines EPA tier 3 compliant, in which case they will no longer be Listeroids.  What it comes down to is that you may not be able to get them easily in future, although there seems to be a good number of people in the U.S. who have no problem importing.

[Doug]

Probably a pitch.

If you talk to enough people around here you may be able to find someone who is importing an engine or two and join in on the order to save some money.

Doug

Here's a reality check on prices for you.

A listeroid will cost you say about 600 USD per unit and maybe 1200 to 1500 after the dust settles. An ST 5 will cost around 250 USD and 700 after you get it. Dealers aren't rtying to screw you on price, this is just what it costs after all the bills are payed. If you can get get a group together and buy several at once there are significant savings.

Some dealers will buy up a container and pass the savings along, other buy less and charge more. Beware of the great deals from people no one here knows. Odds are novice importers for profit bought the cheapest crap they could find with intentions to dump it on Ebay if things went sour. Beware of the guy whop doesn't have engines in stock you could end up waiting 6 months from when you payed him the cash and then get stuck paying even more to take it home.

Last but not least be prepared to throw your money away. You won't be disapointed by a dud that way....
From what I've read seen and researched first hand todays Listeroid is better built than many imported in the recent past but you still can get a suprise.

Doug

[AuburnTiger]

Ouch!   $1000 to $1500 as a throwaway "investment".  Is the production from these factories that random?  I would hope that the folks in this forum could help me find a somewhat reputable manufacturer to purchase from.

[Geno]

Recent quote from another thread. Look around, the problems ones show up here. There are also many more good runners we don't hear about. All engines need to be gone over to some extent. Get the Utterpower CD. My advice is to do the research, buy from a reputable dealer/importer who has been in buisness a while. Some of those who have imported their own engines without knowing the ropes and/or Indian buisness culture have been burned. That several grand price hike sounds bogus.

No workshop can easily correct this.

The innards of the engine - cylinders, crankshaft, tappets and all,  is mounted and machined at a slight angle to the block axial centerline...

Anybody seen this before?

Or did I get a true freak?

Written under Listeroid power
Thanks, Geno

[listeroidsusa]

I think I need to clear up some misconceptions. I think I've been misunderstood. The new Tier 2 regs go into effect Jan1, 2007. In order to import legally either the importer or the manufacturer must have a certificate of conformity. To apply for the certificate of conformity the engines must have been tested for Tier 2 emissions and passed. At this point either the importer or the manufacturer must pay the fees for the certificate of conformity. The structure of the fees can go in either of 2 ways. For an importer of a very small number of engines there is a limited certificate of conformity. Once you have done all your testing ($$$$$$) and have an emissions test meeting Tier 2 you may pay a $750 fee to EPA for a limited certificate of conformity to import engines, PLUS also pay an "Administrative fee" based on the retail price of the engine for each engine imported. For large importers the fee is $1800.00 for a blanket certificate of conformity for the range of engines tested.

What all this means is that under Tier 1 the engines (GM-90 DI) could be tuned to meet Tier 1.

Tier 2 will require add-on equipment, payment of the $1800 fee, be  subject to the $32,500 fine for non-compliance (per engine), and take all other risks associated with importing the engines. This will result in at least a $200 increase in the base price of the engine, and maybe more, depending on what it takes to make it compliant. NOT thousands of dollars. It WILL result in the importer paying Thousands more!

Can you say thanks for the new taxes?

Mike Montieth
Listeroids/USA

[SCOTT]

Mike
Please post a link to the EPA website where these new regulations can be found.  As I understand the regulations, the standard “stationary engine” exemption will still apply in 2007 as it did in 2006

Thanks
Scott

[buickanddeere]

                           " Hello, I'm here from the Government to help you". 

[listeroidsusa]

Some believe, some don't, some think its a trick, so until you see for yourselves I think I'll just keep quiet and let you take your chances. I guess someone will just have to take one for the team before you know for sure. Feeling lucky?

[oldnslow]

A $200 increase for total compliance seems like a reasonable fee to have peace of mind. Especially with the trouble and risks involved in dealing with the EPA. Even if you are totally compliant and they for some reason misunderstand or find an un-dotted i or un-crossed t you are in heap big trouble.
 
Mike, I believe you are talking about an engine that is ready to run, right out of the box. No sand, no remachining etc. Could be the best way to go for a guy who wants a minimum hassle. No, I didn't buy my engine from Mike but I would if I didn't have the ability or a shop to work in. Just my two cents.

[Procrustes]

The EPA will seem like a little girl when you feel the power of the Crimson Tide.

But I jest.  Never cared much about the Iron Bowl or football in general.

While at an Alabama high school party the prettiest girl in my class approached me and said, "Alabama or Auburn?"  I desperately wanted to get the correct answer but, typically, I did not.  She poured beer on my head and walked off.

[okiezeke]

Some manufacturers are simply saying they're exempt from the 07 regs.  So far you can buy these "exempt engines fron a few retailers.  See Lovson 20-2 thread pg 3.
Zeke

[rmchambers]

Some manufacturers are simply saying they're exempt from the 07 regs.  So far you can buy these "exempt engines fron a few retailers.  See Lovson 20-2 thread pg 3.
Zeke

Which to me is like keeping your head in the (casting) sand hoping that a cheaply made sticker with no explanation/reason/justification is going to protect you when the EPA comes crawling by. 

So far as I can tell only Mike M has done any work towards documentable EPA compliance and until that changes I think buying from anyone else is a potential crapshoot as far as the EPA goes.  (No financial interest, haven't bought one from Mike, not planning on the Listeroid route, etc).

Robert

[Rick Rowlands]

Is the EPA really going to send agents to your garage to find out if the engine you have meets the current regulations? 

I'm not worried at all about running a 6/1 for the forseeable future burning whatever oil I can find.  The EPA has limited resources and its not cost effective for them to root out 1,000 individual listeroid owners all over the US.  There are much larger fish to fry for them.  They might go after importers of complete engines but most likely Customs won't allow them into the country. 

I see the future of listeroids going from importation of complete engines to importation of individual parts and kits. That is fine with me since the first thing you do with a listeroid when it arrives is disassemble it anyway.