what makes a stationary engine "stationary"?

[mobile_bob]

with all the bruha over mounting issues of our beloved lister/oid i would like to pose the following questions

1. what makes a stationary engine "stationary" other than it sits in one place?

2. what characteristics does a stationary engine have that a non stationary engine does not have?
    (given similar size, power, and cylinder count)

3. what considerations in design are to be made when designing an engine to be stationary rather than non
    stationary?

4. do all stationary engines have to be rigidly mounted? if so why?

5. what are the primary reasons to rigidly mount a stationary engine?

6. are there examples of stationary engines that are resilient mounted?

7. what make lister engines different than other stationary engines of similar size, hp, and cyl count?
    (as it relates to mounting)

i would be very interested in folks answers to these questions, most especially #7

bob g

[dkwflight]

Hi Given the year of design

1. Nothing
2. Weight is inconsequential in a "Stationary" engine
3. See 2.
4. Weight and viberation.
5. The mount has to stand the weight, viberation, tourque, and be reliable
6. Look at marine engines of the day.
7. nothing


There has definately been an improvement in the understanding of engines and material strength and engineering since these engines were designed.
When weight was a consideration engines could and were designed light weight = aviation. Ofcourse the costs went sky high too!
Remember Lister and others were designing to cost limits as well.
If they didn't make a profit they went out of business!
Dennis

[hotater]

  Just from my observations here---

1)  The cooling fans run backwards.
2)  I've always *thought* a stationary engine was designed for one RPM/torque range, only.
3)  Weight doesn't matter and you don't have to worry about bugs in the radiator.
4)  I would think an internally balanced, modern engine could be mounted anyway you liked.
5)  Any motion not directed towards the benificial work being done is wasted.
6)  I've got two Onan 30Kw diesels sitting on timber ricks and steel subframes with resilient mounts.
7)  The mounting footprint is extremely small and removed from the energetic mass.

" Portability" is very valuable in today's society.  Look at the lengths people here go to to make a 'stationary' engine moveable.  I did it too.   

But I learned better.

Today's engines are made to mount on a trailer or be set on a floor or bolted to a skid.  The CS wasn't, in my OPINION.

[dkwflight]

Hi you may not think this applies to  this discussion, but look at the base. It actually bears a striking likeness to the lister base. No resiliant mounts but is definately mobile.
Dennis

http://carferries.com/skinner/

here is a Gardner engine
http://www.gardner-enthusiast.com/component/option,com_gallery2/Itemid,33/?g2_itemId=572

[DaveW]

 
  1.  Engine shipped without base to save transport expenses and base costs, base to be added to system by customer.

  2. No base, engine is not rigid enough as shipped to work at rated load. See no. 1 above.

  3. Can be made much cheaper, see 1 and 2 above.

  4. Yes. The fewer the cylinders, the more so.  Cast shrugs off compression loads, but hates flex.  Flex results in cracks,
      and then pieces flying off.

  5. As manufactured, a stationary engine in general is incomplete. Only after mounting to a base is it ready to work.

  6. Yes.  Of the ones that I am well aquainted with, (the Witte engine series) look at the log sawyer.  Same engine
      with a slanted hopper to be run on the supplied rails. 
 
  7. Many of the early engines of the one and two cylinder versions followed the steam practice of horizontal cylinders,
     the Lister was a vertical. This tended to turn the thumper from a walker, to a hopper.  Balance became even more important.
     The footprint of a vertical is smaller, making the problem more so. A wider and longer footprint is  more forgiving, and the lower
     center of rotating mass is easier to work with.  Still balance was and is the starting point. So long as the parts are aligned
     properly and well balanced, the old engine designs were made to run for decades. 

   Once balanced and mounted to a rigid base, you can follow up with any sub base you please. I have seen a base that rested on four layers of old truck tire bolted together with a 1 1/8" bolt imbedded in the middle, surrounded by 1/2 of a coil spring from an old car.  This was then protected from overtravel with a cee shaped piece of 1 1/2" steel lined with more thick rubber, two in each corner, facing in.  The whole thing thumped once at startup and sometimes twice at shutdown, otherwise it ran without any vibration you could feel being passed to the floor.  The mounting bolts were torqued down to provide the correct balance between spring and rubber tension.  This system worked that I know of for 18 years, under a 25 hp Witte single running a 12 k generator head. How this relates to a vertical I don't know, but I'll bet the same could be done after a rigid base is added.   

[GuyFawkes]

This is a very rough and ready answer, it misses a lot of the finer but important points, but it does answer the question.

with all the bruha over mounting issues of our beloved lister/oid i would like to pose the following questions

1. what makes a stationary engine "stationary" other than it sits in one place?

Enviornment more than anything else, eg always level, no change in altitude or change in climate more rapid than seasonal, not subject to any kind of acceleration, designed differently so maintenance is different, light weight not a design criteria, and of course medium or slow speed (lister at 650 is a medium speed engine)

2. what characteristics does a stationary engine have that a non stationary engine does not have?
    (given similar size, power, and cylinder count)

What characteristics does a weight lifter have that a marathon runner does not? they both have 2 arms and legs etc.

Big one is stationary engines are always about generating torque.

Different lube, fuelling and thermal rejection systems, no constraint on flywheel diameter because gyroscopic precession is never an issue, etc etc etc.

3. what considerations in design are to be made when designing an engine to be stationary rather than non
    stationary?

Everything is different to a degree, everything rotating or reciprocating needs to be light, because of precessive torque when the non stationary engine moves, you need different sump designs, different cooling strategies, literally everything is different.

Like the difference between a marine engine and a marinised engine, huge. Devil is in the details.

4. do all stationary engines have to be rigidly mounted? if so why?

To draw the centre of mass below the crank radius, and ideally below the crank case.
It's all about fatigue.

Stationary engine are invariably far more expensive by themselves than all other forms, and invariably form part of systems that are vastly expensive and usually critical uptime or serviceability or standby status, that shit has to work on the button for as long as required.

No chain or belt drives for camshafts or injection pumps for example, always pinion driven for maximum durability.

5. what are the primary reasons to rigidly mount a stationary engine?

Reliability and longevity.

6. are there examples of stationary engines that are resilient mounted?

There may be (with resilient defined the way it is in this forum, eg like a car or truck engine) but I have never seen or heard of one that was profesionally done, ever.

7. what make lister engines different than other stationary engines of similar size, hp, and cyl count?
    (as it relates to mounting)

Nothing, how many other stationary engines of similar size hp and cylinder can you name?

Kubota, bzzzt, not stationary.

Off the top of my head I can think of Gardner 2lw, cos I used to work on them too, some deutz, some cats, those swedish ones I can never remember the name of and a few obscure small production run english makes.

They really aren't that common in the 300lb per bhp diesel less than 20 bhp and less than 3 cylinder flavours.

Lister made other diesel engines at the same time as the CS series that were not stationary, the clue is there.


i would be very interested in folks answers to these questions, most especially #7

bob g

[Doug]

Its stationary if you can't find a practical way to move it lol.

Simpler a machine that is not intended to be most while performing its function and mounted on a foundation.
That could be any engine properly constructed and mounted.

Doug

[snail]

Never thought I'd dare post on this subject but...

Where do tractors fit into this? Many of the oldies, singles and twins, had big flywheels and were in effect mobile versions of stationary engines. I'm pretty sure Lanz had a stationary version of their motor, Mcdonald (Macdonald?) in Oz did, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a stationary "Johnny Popper" (just a guess, why miss out on a market?). I'm amazed no-one ever put a Lister in a Garden Tractor. I'm sure there's a CS in a small roller (Tennis court?)somewhere on the web.
All up I think the distinction between "Stationary" and "Portable" is a bit blurry.

Cheers,

Brian

[binnie]

Has anyone ever seen the lister made bolwing greens & cricket rollers to smooth out the playing field...they are quite the design..and some bowling greens in England still use them. From what I understand they only went forward...and only the rare exception was designed to go in reverse...but they did use the CS 6/1 for a power plant and were on rollers rather than wheels...but certainly not stationary . binnie

[hotater]

There was a cricket pitch roller on ebay last year with a 5-1 set crossways in it.

[Guy_Incognito]

Can anyone identify this further?

From the state library of Victoria , date of image 1956.:


Caption: "Includes Lister portable outdoor generator and company trucks outside building."

It looks like a radiator-cooled lister single/twin on a trailer.

[Firebrick]

I will start of with a little bit about my experience on the subject, the engines that I help build put out 700-3000 hp and come in 8-20 cylinders.  They are installed in LARGE vehicles such as mining trucks, dozers, loaders, ships, factories, oil shale fracturing rigs, and better than 2/3rds are stationary used in electric power generation, natural gas compression, and other factory type installations.

1. what makes a stationary engine "stationary" other than it sits in one place?

99 percent of the time they run for extended time periods, more constant loads, and constant speed.

2. what characteristics does a stationary engine have that a non stationary engine does not have?
    (given similar size, power, and cylinder count)

Ours share the same basic engine but oil pans are different because of space on a vehicle, flywheel and housings are standard size on   a stationary engine and matched to the application on other classes of engines.  The tubochargers are sized for constant power instead of peak power.  The stationary engines are mounted by their oil pans instead of mounts to the block/flywheel housing. 

2. what characteristics does a stationary engine have that a non stationary engine does not have?
    (given similar size, power, and cylinder count)

Oil sump and how its mounted is about it.

4. do all stationary engines have to be rigidly mounted? if so why?

Yes and No, traditionally they have been mounted to a solid base(normally concrete) but our company has made units that can be place on solid level ground.  They do however need to be solidly mounted to what it is driving and there cant be and misalignment due to the mass.  So if they are not bedded down they are mounted on a very stiff box section frame that has resiliant pucks underneath. 

5. what are the primary reasons to rigidly mount a stationary engine?

I think most are off base here.  Most stationary engines are big and heavy and drive attachments that are big and heavy. A 14 foot block that weighs 7 ton will sag 1/2 and inch in not supported evenly across its lenghth.  Even when bolted solidly to a generator, the gen set needs a set of rails sufficient stiff enough to resist the mass of the package from sagging or moving out of alignment and belive me it will.  Almost all stationary set ups and most large marine set ups use very heavy c channel rails or L rails for the marine setups.  These have very heavy cross braces bolted up to strengthen them yet they still have to be put on a solid no moving base and realigned.  Only a very heavy box section frames welded together are stiff enough to be placed on resilient pads.

6. are there examples of stationary engines that are resilient mounted?

Yes, see above

7. what make lister engines different than other stationary engines of similar size, hp, and cyl count?
    (as it relates to mounting)

The vast majority of stationary engines are coupled directly to the driven load(such as a gen bolted to the flywheel bell housing)  where the lister is coupled with a belt.


bob g