Transfer switch rant

[rcavictim]

Ok I see....

I've never used those or seen that particular brand of braker. But I can understand why you would like them.

Doesn't look like they follow a modern frame size I'm familiar with such as a "K" or 400A ( Kind of confusing if you aren't familiar with industrial molded case brakers ). If I understand it right these are an OEM braker built into equipment rather than standard frame braker that you chose the trip unit on.

The 10,000 amp interupt capacity is small by modern standards where did you get these?

They are over kill for a home!

I deal almost exclusively with the Cutler Hammer ( formerly Westing House ) line for 600 V with a handfull of the Giant "Square D" stab and claw types. There are even a few of the even more rare combination Westing house brakers left in service where I work. I realy like a fuse myself to clear faults and thermal magentic for the overloads. All shunt trip equiped of course for corodination with our high impeadance grounded ground fault detection systems.

Fuses are still my first line choice especialy in the 2200 -13800 range ( S&C ) or place with very high fault current potential. I like to be able to see strikers, flags, smell expulsive fuses and not to mention be able to look at and clearly see what the problem is, condition of insulators, switches and fuses before I reach in and put on the grounds ( following procedure of course ). High voltage CBs offer a lot of benifits but I don't like of trust racking a lot of types to work on circuts. Sometimes you must use a CB for for everything else give a fuse.

Doug

Doug,

These Heinemanns show up at elecrtical surplus stores, and I have pulled them myself from electrical cabinets.  You are right, they are an OEM type.  Heinemann claims to be the current leading supplier of circuit breakers now in use in computer equipment like UPS`s, mainframes, etc.

You mention a familiarity with Westinghouse.  I have four rather huge, like 4+ inch thick, 9 inch wide and a foot tall or so (from memory), 3 pole, 600 VAC, 100 amp breakers with a single large paddle toggle control front and center from two complete 1954 RCA, 10 kW broadcast transmitters that I parted out a few years ago.  I figure on using them as disconnect switches for my wind turbine system, just because I don`t think I could find a better quality on off switch with that high voltage safety rating.  These must be worth a fortune to replace today. They activate with considerable paddle pressure and with audible authority. Clunk.  Like the Heinemanns I like, thease are a big molded breaker that can be screwed down to a plywood board and used stand alone with a high degree of safety, or in a metal cabinet.  I can dig up a model number if you are curious.

[Doug]

Sure toss up some numbers....

At first guess you discribing a something between a K and an M frame.

Westinghouse/Cutler Hammer also made/makes a class of device called a molded case switch. Simply a stock braker with the trip units removed. And yes these make great disconects, but better yet you can add a remote trip to them for example you might like to be able to open the unit from your home for some reason.

I don't know what they are worth now. These are so common here in my buisness they collect dust and tend to be tossed out when too many are laying around.

In a 400 amp frame you can selectrip units from 100 to 400 amps. An HKD breaker has an interupt capacity of 40,000 amps. On the other hand form 2 fuses have interupts significanlty higher and on that black day you have a big molded case blow up in your face as has happened to me you'll get a whole new apreciation for fuses.

Doug 

[Procrustes]

I'm impressed.  Harbor Freight charged me $12 for shipping, so $312 on sale delivered, versus over $1,000 undelivered on several websites.  The next lowest price I saw was $691, and one site was nearly twice that.  Same part number.  Thanks rjcroc!

[Rainbow-Farm]

In Canada, 100-amp, $1000.00

200 amp, $1,200

[buickanddeere]

Hi I supose that if you are smart enough to put together a lister gen set you might be smart enough to open the mains breaker before you close the breaker for the gen set!
This is what I do when I want to run the genset.
Just engage the brain first! Think about what you are doing!
If you think some one else will operate the generater You probably should get a transfer switch.
Dennis

   dkwflight

  Wonder on down to the CSA, hydro spector's office or better yet the  Linesmen hiring hall or a shop employing linesmen. Now go in there and tell them how you are so smart you don't need to install or use a proper isolation switch. 
   Unless you are opening the neutral there is no full isolation. If you think the secondary neutral is held at low enough potential so there is zero V back feed out the primary, think again.
   Go around and ask generator dealers and repair shops about generators burned or twisted and service/equipment wiring damage. Ask for the story of how the owner's machine was damaged. Then ask what really happened.   

  b&d  IBEW353

[Procrustes]

buickanddeere -- are you saying that a proper single-phase isolation switch has three poles, including one for the neutral?  I was looking for a three-pole switch but they are hard to find.  The Cutler-Hammer I ordered is a two pole I believe.

[Rainbow-Farm]

Yes, $299.99 on Harbor Freight, but no inside pic or specs.

Procrustes, it seems you ordered one. Do you have any comments or observations, or ideas on how to "include" the neutral in the switch?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=42163

I need exactly this... 200 amps, manual. It may not be code in Quebec, and to get one that is "code"... well, $1,200.

[Rainbow-Farm]

Cutler-Hammer ... distributed in Canada by eatonelectrical.ca who have one page for all transfer switches, and have no details except distributor names and phone numbers. The local distributor knows zip about the products and cannot find that box by its model number: DT224URK-NPS, which may be for US only (took the model # from Harbor Freight).

So... I asked the distributor to look for any 200-amp transfer switch, whether they have them in stock or not, what prices... then maybe I can go look at the thing. If it is sold here, it would (probably, maybe, likely, who knows?) conform to code.

[Rainbow-Farm]

So... (pending the news whether there is a box with 3 poles, one for the neutral), now (recent change, according to the electrician) in Ontario, the neutral is always connected, even when the big old fat main switch is OFF.

In Quebec, where things take about 10 years to catch on, this may not be the case, but I would feel safe having the neutral also switched to the ST head, since it puts out on 3 lines, and one of them is neutral.

Turn OFF the grid, might as well turn all of it off... a complete disconnect... seems to make sense to me.

So, if the switches do not come with the 3rd pole, what is the solution/workaround?

[Andre Blanchard]

So, if the switches do not come with the 3rd pole, what is the solution/workaround?

Flexible wire with a plug on the end out of the main panel in house.
One outlet for the plug is wired to the grid, the second is wired to the generator.
Plug your house into whichever one you want to get power from.

I got no idea if an inspector would go for it but I would.
Plugs and outlets of this size could well cost more then the switch.
Also switching under load could be fun.

[Procrustes]

Yes, $299.99 on Harbor Freight, but no inside pic or specs.

Procrustes, it seems you ordered one. Do you have any comments or observations, or ideas on how to "include" the neutral in the switch?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=42163

I need exactly this... 200 amps, manual. It may not be code in Quebec, and to get one that is "code"... well, $1,200.

I don't have the switch yet,  but it's definitely 2 pole.  It's also non-fusible if that's a problem.  Did you read earlier in this thread someone mentioning that this wouldn't be code somewhere in Canada?  I had a preliminary conversation with an inspector here and the only thing he emphasized in UL listed, which is easy to fulfill.

The initial post I made in this thread comes with a blank for a third pole.  The switch lists for $613, and the thrid pole kit is probably pricey as well.

I remember seeing a good picture of the inside of the unit somewhere on the web.  I googled again, and it seems that there are fewer references to the part number now (DT224URK-NPS).  Maybe they are being remaindered.

How dangerous are two-pole switches?  Most districts apparently permit them, as they are much more common than the three-pole switches.

[Tugger]

I just got off the phone with the Ontario electrical safety authority inspector...
If your generator head neutral is NOT bonded with the ground(gen casing) you dont need to switch the neutral, but you must bring the main bond(ground) from your hydro service to the gen head...

[buickanddeere]

  Tugger has it correct.
   b.t.w. three pole welding receptacle is even worse to plug your generator into than a four pole clothes or range receptacle. That will raise the voltage of your ground system above true earth. 

[Rainbow-Farm]

Procrustes: Looking forward to your update on inspection/arrival/use.

Ontario is the place where code is quoted (often here). Quebec is a few inches away, and a few light-years behind.

My Coleman has the neutral/ground combined, and they have explained to me how to use that set-up (wire it, get it into the house). The new rig, on an ST head, has an independent neutral line. So, the neutral is not bound to the ground, and in Quebec, I do not know if the neutral is rigged the same way as it is in Ontario. I doubt that Hydro Quebec has anyone who can

a) Answer the question.
b) Speak English.

So, I would prefer a 3-pole switch... I would rather disconnect Hydro Quebed than phone them for info. They might capture my number and send a tax auditor, municipal inspector, or whatever... just to be miserable (hey, he speaks English and wants to disconnect US, the Gods of Hydroelectric power).

I do not think I would be using plugs/outlets. I would rather use the whole-house switch.

[Procrustes]

Procrustes: Looking forward to your update on inspection/arrival/use.

I don't like to say it but Dr. Ruth is as qualified as I am to inspect a transfer switch.

So, I would prefer a 3-pole switch... I would rather disconnect Hydro Quebed than phone them for info. They might capture my number and send a tax auditor, municipal inspector, or whatever... just to be miserable (hey, he speaks English and wants to disconnect US, the Gods of Hydroelectric power).

I do not think I would be using plugs/outlets. I would rather use the whole-house switch.

From an hour or two of studying transfer switch prices I'll bet you'll pay double the Harbor Freight deal for a three-pole.  I don't mean to dissuade you of course.