Author Topic: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)  (Read 29734 times)

GuyFawkes

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How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« on: October 02, 2006, 12:23:55 PM »

1/ They are massive, and top heavy, even a single spoked flywheel can weigh 150 lbs, hospital accident and emergency departments are full of injured people who got injured through nothing more than working with objects too heavy to throw around by hand, so never use one point of lifting and never lift without chocking so if there is a fall it is arrested, eg when charging a car tyre first thing you do is put the spare under the body in case the jack collapses, same pronciple applies.

2/ 6 bhp is puny, yes it is, and as I have said MANY times in the past, bhp is bullshit, just a way of measuring rate of fuel consumption or rate of thermal rejection, what you need to be aware of is the momentum of literally hundreds of pounds of dense iron moving at up to 60 mph, there is VAST energy stored there as momentum, WHEN, not if, WHEN, something unexpected happens the one thing you will not be lacking is instantly available massive amounts of momentum.

3/ Belts, anything drawn into belts will get drawn in all the way intil it meets either the flywheel or alternator pulley, and then it will get carried around the pulley and rotated 180 degrees before being released, if this is your arm and hand which is the most likely candidate, sticking it in a crocodile's mouth is likely to do less damage.... unlike a crocodile, rotating machinery is ALWAYS hungry.

4/ flywheels, they are spinning at 60 mph, anything that falls into or onto them will be instantly accelerated to 60 mph and take off in a random direction, even if "It" is an 18 oz hammer, it is not going to slow down between 400 and 700 lbs of rotating mass, instead it is going to be instantly accelerated to anything up to 60 mph. if it hits you it can main or kill you, but it can also hit anything else in your engine shed, or just slam into the fuel linkage and permanently jam the rack wide open.

5/ AC power

====================================

Those are the obvious ones, everyone can see them, everyone ignores them because until you seen them you suffer from "can't happen here"

They are obvious because they are very rapid processes.

The real dangers and the ones nobody sees until it is too late are the slow, gradual, progressive ones.

That vibration working at all your home made welds, working at all those generic bolts and fasteners you bought, working through all those mods you made and all the shortcuts the indians made.

These kinds of failures will also kill you, they are likely to be more catastrophic that the simple and rapid failures listed above.

The only people who can deposit welds that never ever ever crack are people who know practically nothing about welding.... the better the welder the more aware he is of the dangers of fractures and fatigue and the more aware he is of welding techniques and styles likely to severely limit these problems.

The nightmare scenario here is not "bob blew his crank and it will cost him 200 bucks for a new one".

The nightmare scenario is you decided to build a steel frame of your own design, the design is crap and your welding isn't up to coded standards either so sooner or later the welds are going to fail and weaken dramatically.

The nightmare scenario is you decided you could buy an industrial engine and rubber mount it for your own personal comfort, and so maximised the vibration and fatigue experienced by the engine.

The nightmare scenario is you decided you were smarter than listers and didn't need a ton or two of concrete to tie the engine too, so when things let go there is no anchor points and all bets are off.

The nightmare scenario is the crank doesn't break, but those indian gib keys worked loose, plus you were too smart to waste a few bucks on high quality bolt based hose clamps as retainers, so your spinning at 60 mph flywheel walks off the crankshaft, if it hits your home made steel frame it tears it to pieces in an eyeblink and everything else disintegrates, if it hits the gound it takes off at 60 mph with just as much momentum and destructive power as a locomotive wheel, walls means nothing to it, given a clear run over dirt it will travel well over one mile. Of course the one remaining flywheel is insufficient to balance your engine, so it vibrates even more on your inadequate flexible mounts.

If you or your family members are not maimed or killed, an innocent bystanders might be. So even if you live through it you're likely to be sued into the poor house. Which is OK, Darwinism at work.... what ain't OK is....

within three months nobody but nobody will be able to get a Lister(oid) permit, grid tied or not, for less than ten thousand bucks worth of site inspection and certification.... nobody but nobody will get permit for residential zoning of a listeroid for less than ten thousand bucks worth of site inspection and certification... nobody but nobody will get insurance, domestic or otherwise, that isn't entirely null and void without ten thousand bucks worth or site inspection and certification.

If you think some dipshit making these mistakes in one country is not going to rapidly affect the prospects for everyone else in a completely different country then you need to wake up and smell the roses.

it don't need EPA type rules to follow, all it takes is one phone call...

"mobile bob? this is your acme insurance company, we are ringing you to inform you that until you have your listeroid site surveyed, insected and passed, which will cost you ten thousand bucks, we are suspending ALL your insurance policies, workers health, public liability, buildings and contents, etc, for your premises as of midnight tonite."

--------------------------------------


the most dangerous part of a car is the nut behind the steering wheel

same applies here.

I own a custom motorcycle, it has to pass the same annual ministry vehicle inspection every year before I can insure it, no insurance means a heavy fine the first time, and the second or third time (eg the next day when plod sees you out riding) it means jail time.

this is how things get controlled in the modern world, you get priced out of playing because someone else sees an angle to make a profit, someone you can't argue with or do without, someone like an insurance company.

==========================

if you think a lister can't fracture the (stick) welds on a 6 inch RSJ frame then you probably think it can't fracture a massive concrete bridge either, go talk to mr belk about that.

does your home made welded steel frame look ANYTHING like the welded steel frames Lister made?

why not?

what do you know about engineering that they do not?

let me rephrase that.

what do you know about engineering stationary diesel engines that they do not?

I'm a marine engineer, so my answer is "fuck all" even though I know a lot more than listers about hydraulic stabilisers for example.

A large proportion of you are FUCKING DAMGEROUS because you are not just willing, but eager, to work on one assumption piled on top of another assumption.

Fucking around with stationary diesel engines, particularly aftermarket ones made to unknown standards, is a really excellent way of shortening the odds on calamity and making a date with Darwin, it achieves this in ways that no amount of playing with car, motorcycle, boat or aeroplane equipment can, and it achieves it mainly because you have a model in your head of this safe, puny, lazy, cute little 6 bhp diesel engine.... it already got past all your best defences.

You cannot look at an engine bolted to a massive concrete block and see it mentally in the same way as the same engine mounted to a steel frame and rubber mounts.

Ask Mr Belk (or anyone with military service) if there is such an animal as an unloaded weapon.

Your Lister is a permanently loaded weapon, it is just begging you to fuck with it.

SO is every business on the planet with a vested financial interest in seeing just one of you numbnuts play the odds and come up short so they can cite you as an example of why they just moved the goalposts and now everyone else needs ten thousand bucks worth of site inspection and cetification before they can get insurance.

--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Guy_Incognito

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2006, 01:27:07 PM »
These are all good points, Guy_F. I was going to post something along the lines of this reply in my mount design thread, but I'll put it here instead.

But take note, those points equally apply to the standard mount as well.

Do you get an engineer from lister in to inspect your concrete? As if. What exactly did you pour in there? 30MPa? 15Mpa? Mostly sand? Is it fibre-reinforced? Too wet? What's the torque on those mounting bolts? Are those indian bolts grouted into concrete any good? What's the subsoil like? How's your engine balance? Did you actually balance it before bolting it down? There could be 500 pounds of force working away in there and you wouldn't know it. Yes, concrete's tough stuff. But I've seen plenty of people who couldn't put a good batch of concrete in to save their life - possibly literally in this case.

But I'll reinforce your post. All other arguments I've had with you aside - in this case, I am in complete agreement with what you say.

I tend to give off a cavalier attitude when posting. The traditional aussie "She'll be right" attitude leaks through all the time. But I'm taking the serious approach to the thorny question of resilient mount design here. I don't even have the damn engine yet and already I'm wading through all the calcs involved to make sure the first frame I build for it will be strong enough and sorted enough that the odds of disastrous things are reduced. Not eliminated - you can never entirely eliminate the risks - but limited , with controls in place.

What you need to have is a healthy respect for your equipment and it's operating environment. To make sure that if you're straying from the norm, to make sure that you're doing it right. Sit down and do the math with your mounts. Talk to your suppliers - they do this kind of crap all the time, don't go reinventing the wheel. Compare your calculated results to your machine when it's first put together and run - if there's any serious deviations from what you expected, go find out why. Don't just say "Oh, well, it's close enough, I guess." That kind of stuff will get someone hurt. I have calculated a fairly good idea of the amount of motion that the engine will display on the frame. If there's more in real life, there's something I've missed, and I want to know what it is.

For general safety :
Get someone else over who knows nothing about engines. Describe it all to them and use their fresh eye to find the things you overlook. They might be freaking out about something that they see as dangerous that you see as normal. Don't just fob them off if they do. Go find ways of reducing the risks for it.

With anything, a good, regular maintenance schedule is a must. So you've got a new design. Put it through it's paces under different loads and conditions, in as safe an enviroment as possible. Check for cracks. Check the mounting bolts and frame - concrete or otherwise. Check for looseness on the machine, preferably before a day's running or at the very least, do all this every time you change the oil. And jesus, do all the obvious stuff - guard those flywheels and belts as much as possible, put retainers on the shafts to stop flywheels wandering off ,etc . I know it ruins the look.

Now, a man's got to know his limitations, and I know mine reasonably well. I'd be comfortable building a setup that involves all those killer forces if it was just for me on a desert island somewhere. I've got the resources of qualified boilermakers, specialists in vibration isolation and mechanical engineers, all backing me up, and I don't hesitate in asking dumb questions and getting solid answers out of them before I go off and do stuff. After 50 hours of test running a new design, and a very careful and thorough checkover without any issues, I'd be happy to let other people near it. Would I sell it to the average joe right then, without a few extra ones built, a couple of thousand hours on them and mechanical engineer going all over it and signing off on it? No way. Not just for the liability - I have enough public liability insurance to cover that, but the fact that I'd never want to hear about someone using a mount that I built getting hurt.

The problem is of course, is that that's what I do, but not perhaps what you'd do. So I blithley give advice to people here and there, and they go off and don't grasp the key points or the dangers involved and something bad happens.

Thank you, Guy_Fawkes, for crystallising the issue and reminding me of this. Its something that I think we should all take heed of.

mobile_bob

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2006, 04:24:39 PM »
Guy F:

normally i might take exception to your use of me as the example of a baffoon, but in this case if the use
of me as an idiot in your example makes folks stop and rethink their project, then i am ok with being the "jester" :)

as i have stated before in the other thread, safety has to be the overriding factor, and the use of concrete is perhaps the
strongest component in the arguement supporting safety.

i will stand shoulder to shoulder with you on this one, that is from a safety standpoint.

just because something can be done, is not a reason it should be done.

i might also add, on the issue of using concrete

do not be lulled into thinking that you can simply bolt a poorly balanced, or non balanced engine to just any old block of concrete, using just any old bolts
make damn sure you use quality bolts, mix the concrete properly, and torque the thing in place, only after you determine that you have a reasonably balanced engine to start with.  and then.....

keep an eye on it for signs of working loose, or other signs of failure,

and as Guy mentions, provide some bolt type clamps on the crankshaft ,  as safety backups should the keys loosen on the flywheel mount.


the more i think about this the uglier it gets,, all it takes is one idiot and it dont make a bit of difference whether he uses concrete or steel, some bozo is going to have a problem...

i hope we never hear of it

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
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GuyFawkes

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2006, 04:36:10 PM »

But take note, those points equally apply to the standard mount as well.

except they don't, but full marks for trying to cloud the issue with yet another assumption.... >;^)


Quote
Do you get an engineer from lister in to inspect your concrete? As if. What exactly did you pour in there? 30MPa? 15Mpa? Mostly sand? Is it fibre-reinforced? Too wet? What's the torque on those mounting bolts? Are those indian bolts grouted into concrete any good? What's the subsoil like? How's your engine balance? Did you actually balance it before bolting it down? There could be 500 pounds of force working away in there and you wouldn't know it. Yes, concrete's tough stuff. But I've seen plenty of people who couldn't put a good batch of concrete in to save their life - possibly literally in this case.


As far as the concrete goes, you get VERY clear VERY early visual clues long before any appreciable percentage of block integrity is lost, or does your argument rest upon the owner being so blind they cannot see cracking, flaking, powdering or other decomposition of the block?

As far as the mounting bolts, they were supplied by Lister, or you bought them yourself, NOT high tensile or anything like that, but good steel bolts, and also 3/4" diameter, nothing else and nothing less.

As far as the subsoil is concerned you poured your block inside an outside building, if it took the weight of stone walls the lister will be no problem, so another assumption / straw man argument that simply did not apply to the original intended usage of these engines... see a pattern forming here?

As for the engine balance, You just bought a Lister, you paid as much as you would for a house, it was properly engineered. SO yet more assumptions that exist for no purpose other than to mask the obvious differences, differences which need addressing, and not with more assumptions. These differences are where all the problems lie.

Remember that Lister engineer that came around and comissioned the set, that is he did if you wanted your warranty.

Think you could sneak a 20:1 mix of sea sand and old crete past his nose? Or fasten it down not at a level with 5/16 high tensile bolts? Or maybe re-build and "improve" the engine with various trick mods?

Err, no.

Yeah, I deliberately poked the hornets nest, but it seems that is the only way to get some people to wake up to the fact that that mellow buzzing and smooth shape does not mean it is a surgical appliance.

So how about coming back to be with an argument that actually holds water, instead of one that requires a bunch of so unlikely as to be impossible connected scenarios like blind owners who can't see concrete cracking but can mix sea sand cement and can make trick mods to an engine and can do all this so well the Lister engineer doesn't notice a damn thing?

You wonder why George at Utterpower (who I have never met so this is just speculation on my part) has started to sell a "kit" and not an "engine"

Cover Your Ass
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

GuyFawkes

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2006, 04:42:13 PM »
Guy F:

normally i might take exception to your use of me as the example of a baffoon, but in this case if the use
of me as an idiot in your example makes folks stop and rethink their project, then i am ok with being the "jester" :)

actually I used you because you are clearly NOT a buffoon, that was the point, you don't have to be, if someone else is and your insurance company calls you and cancelled your insurance as long as you keep your listeroid on your premises until such time as you pay ten thousand bucks for inspection and certification then that is something that presents MAJOR challenges to you, even though you are not a buffoon and on the face of it that sort of challenge is pretty much right up your street because it is what you do every day.

eg fix other people's problems.

the point of this is some other people's problems can't be fixed when they impact you, you just have to eat it, and itf you can't pay the price you do without.

no shortage of examples of this in modern life.

Forklifs are an obvious one, now you need a licence and specialist insurance to use of keep one.
Oxy acetylene on the premises? That's extra on the premium too and a zoning permission requirement too?

the beat goes on.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

GuyFawkes

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2006, 05:22:26 PM »
Here is a list of things off the top of my head that I used to just be able to do, and now either they are flat out illegal or they are illegal unless I pay a fat sum of money to an insurance company every month.

1/ Keep more than 5 gallons of petrol or diesel in my house or garage, sole exception being a certified bunker.

2/ Keep more than 2 x 30 lb bottles of butane in my house or garage, most housing insurance policies are now void if you use them in a portable bottle gas heater, even a catalytic one.

3/ Keep oxy-acetylene, even a porta-pack, in my house or garage, this is a no-no at any price. Hell, you can't even BUY the shit without a licence now.

4/ Drive  a fork life, jcb, bucket loader, tracked vehicle, hiab, or any one of dozens of things I used to own and use and not give a thought to, now they all require certification and the fact is some of them I just won't pass the meds (lazy eye) so it ain't even just a question of money.

5/ do any kind of electroplating, not even small scale few square inches stuff

6/ drive any vehicle over 3500 kilogrammes GVW (lasy eye again)

7/ use an angle grinder for work (no, I am not kidding, all you can do without the cert and insurance is change the stone)

8/ Weld on a vehicle body or motorcycle frame

9/ you get the drift.

These were ALL things that I have done and could do, and ___I___ never had a problem with ANY of them, for examply oxy acetylene, outside of training vidoes and some interesting accidents that were caught by flame arrestors the ONLY fatality I know of was a guy who unscrewed the head valve from an oxy tank without bothering to CHECK it was de-pressurised, yet somewhere someone did fuck up, it doesn't matter who or were, it gave everyone an excuse to introduce new rules, new certificantion, new insurance, and basically everyone makes more money now.

Ebay uk is a good place to buy pub CO2 gas bottles for your mig, because the disposable bottles are too expensive and pukka argoshield from BOC requires a licence, 200 quid registration, 100 quid a year bottle rent and 30 quid a bottle refills, course you can use any old gauges yoy like and cheapo hose too, it's inert gas, go oxy acetylene and they have rules on gauges / arrestors / hoses / torches too....... my 25 year old works like new BOC Saffire torch is now illegal.

====================================

You are all worried about EPA, you are worried for one reason only, it hits you in the only place you give a shit about, in your wallet.

Nobody knows they are born, Briggs & Stratton lawyers would shit at the thought of engines with basically zero commercially recognised QA (Quality Assurance) going to market, you are basically writing a blank cheque for anyone who stubs their toe and decides to sue, while with the other hand completing your chapter 11 forms.

This is the wild west, and the very first proper Listeroid injury or fatality (like the lottery adverts say, it could be yoooouuuuuu) and the law is going to come to town in a big way and passing kalifornia emissions regulations will be the very least of your worries.....

You will be choosing between Listeroids and Arrows on the basis of any criterion you like, EXCEPT cost, cost they will cost the same.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Procrustes

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2006, 05:48:41 PM »
Angle grinders?  What an absurd imposition.

While agreeing with the jist of your post, it's hard for me to envision regulations regarding residential stationary flywheel engines in the US.  I'd be surprised if 1% of our legislators have heard of such a thing.  Probably lots of folks in the UK have seen and heard of Listers, but there's almost nothing comparable here.

That's not to say the the insurance companies wouldn't try to cite one to deny a claim.

mobile_bob

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2006, 08:02:51 PM »
 you know how it works here in the US

all you need is a lobby guy, seeking to get a law passed on behalf of insurance companies, and they will just piggyback it thru attached to some other bill.

with less than .01 percent of the public using these engines, we would never even hear about it till it was done.

you know how government see's things

they have to protect us from ourselves!

:(

bob g
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Guy_Incognito

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2006, 08:14:48 PM »
Please, go easy on me. I'm back on night shift. I did seriously consider not posting for the next 4 or 5 days.  ;D



But take note, those points equally apply to the standard mount as well.

except they don't, but full marks for trying to cloud the issue with yet another assumption.... >;^)

Thanks, but I wasn't purposefully trying to... it seems cloudy enough already!

Quote
As far as the concrete goes, you get VERY clear VERY early visual clues long before any appreciable percentage of block integrity is lost, or does your argument rest upon the owner being so blind they cannot see cracking, flaking, powdering or other decomposition of the block?

Well, yes. Especially if you insinuate that people can't spot a broken weld/dangling crossmember. If you've made a mount correctly, you're going to have to break more than one before it all goes to bits. Ditto goes for people with concrete then? Would you spot flaking/cracking on a block covered with engine oil and crud?  Would you say, "oh that's just shrinkage/surface cracks?"

Quote
As far as the mounting bolts, they were supplied by Lister, or you bought them yourself, NOT high tensile or anything like that, but good steel bolts, and also 3/4" diameter, nothing else and nothing less.

But they're not supplied by lister anymore. With their new 6/1's , anyway. And mistakes with the tensile strength of bolts can be made by people competent enough to pour concrete. Who here checks their mount bolts before their engine is run, every time?

Quote
As far as the subsoil is concerned you poured your block inside an outside building, if it took the weight of stone walls the lister will be no problem, so another assumption / straw man argument that simply did not apply to the original intended usage of these engines... see a pattern forming here?

Not really , there's plenty of conditons where subsoil will turn to moosh (technical term) or settle when a lot of vibrations are applied to it. Building walls generally don't vibrate. But was I was trying to say is that there are factors that need to be considered with every type of mount. Incidentally, I recieved the engineer's report today for the place I'm building. The pole foundations have to go 20 feet in (!!) to take into account an unstable, saturated clay layer in the slope. Apart from me clutching my chest about how much that's going to cost  ;) , it raises questions of how much jiggling is going to be safe for me regarding my choice of engine. I'm hoping in my case, that a fancy-pants mount with low energy transfer to the ground will solve my problem. But I will be discussing it with the engineer.

Quote
As for the engine balance, You just bought a Lister, you paid as much as you would for a house, it was properly engineered. SO yet more assumptions that exist for no purpose other than to mask the obvious differences, differences which need addressing, and not with more assumptions. These differences are where all the problems lie.

But you can't buy a lister new anymore, even if you're willing to pay as much as a house. (hippy voice) You're stuck in the past, man! Contemporise! (/hippy voice) We're stuck with new engines that are apparently a case of random-parts-assembled. So someone takes the general advice to bolt it to a block of crete before running, gets a fair bit of vibration, pours a bigger block (because that will solve all the issues, according to many posts I've read) - 50 hours later something tears off his engine and goes through a wall. An original lister will not have this problem, granted. Everyone else will to some extent.

Quote
Remember that Lister engineer that came around and comissioned the set, that is he did if you wanted your warranty.

Think you could sneak a 20:1 mix of sea sand and old crete past his nose? Or fasten it down not at a level with 5/16 high tensile bolts? Or maybe re-build and "improve" the engine with various trick mods?

Err, no.


He's long dead, most likely. Or retired, anyway. Again, If you get a listeroid (or a used lister) these days, you're on your own. Do it right, whichever way you do it.

Quote
Yeah, I deliberately poked the hornets nest, but it seems that is the only way to get some people to wake up to the fact that that mellow buzzing and smooth shape does not mean it is a surgical appliance.

Fair enough. Sometimes you have to poke the nest to give everyone a reality check.

Quote
So how about coming back to be with an argument that actually holds water, instead of one that requires a bunch of so unlikely as to be impossible connected scenarios like blind owners who can't see concrete cracking but can mix sea sand cement and can make trick mods to an engine and can do all this so well the Lister engineer doesn't notice a damn thing?

Lister engineer aside, these engines will run unattended. And never underestimate the stupidity of people. Do we both agree on that? Anyone can make a slab, drop an engine on it and call it done. One hopes that they inspect it regularly, just like they regularly inspect eveything else.

Quote
You wonder why George at Utterpower (who I have never met so this is just speculation on my part) has started to sell a "kit" and not an "engine"
Cover Your Ass

Yeah, CYA is everywhere these days. But is it a CYA with the EPA thing or CYA with the liability thing? Going over his site, you often find mention of some way of doing something and then a small "and I never would recommend you do work on an open flywheel engine".

You (well, I) make assumptions that the people you converse with have a good idea of the risks. But that doesn't stop something going wrong and some lawsuit coming on down. But is the alternative do and say nothing and letting all your info go? Guy_F, if you were painfully aware of the possibility of legal action every time you recommended something on this forum , would you continue to post? In the legal world, there's no such thing as common sense when you're talking saftey issues. If you say "Well, anyone with common sense would know not to fall in that open manhole I left unbarricaded", it ain't gonna fly.

I dunno. It's all definitely food for thought.

(edit: damn nested quotes)

GuyFawkes

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2006, 10:32:44 PM »
Please, go easy on me. I'm back on night shift. I did seriously consider not posting for the next 4 or 5 days.  ;D



But take note, those points equally apply to the standard mount as well.

except they don't, but full marks for trying to cloud the issue with yet another assumption.... >;^)

Thanks, but I wasn't purposefully trying to... it seems cloudy enough already!

Quote
As far as the concrete goes, you get VERY clear VERY early visual clues long before any appreciable percentage of block integrity is lost, or does your argument rest upon the owner being so blind they cannot see cracking, flaking, powdering or other decomposition of the block?

Well, yes. Especially if you insinuate that people can't spot a broken weld/dangling crossmember. If you've made a mount correctly, you're going to have to break more than one before it all goes to bits. Ditto goes for people with concrete then? Would you spot flaking/cracking on a block covered with engine oil and crud?  Would you say, "oh that's just shrinkage/surface cracks?"

Unless you have x-ray vision, literally, you have no fucking idea how good or bad a weld is.....  but again, nice try at clouding the issue.
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As far as the mounting bolts, they were supplied by Lister, or you bought them yourself, NOT high tensile or anything like that, but good steel bolts, and also 3/4" diameter, nothing else and nothing less.

But they're not supplied by lister anymore. With their new 6/1's , anyway. And mistakes with the tensile strength of bolts can be made by people competent enough to pour concrete. Who here checks their mount bolts before their engine is run, every time?

That's right, they are not supplied by lister, add another item to the list of things that you can't take a chance on.

As to who checks equipment over, who doesn't?
I would not dream of getting on a bike without giving it a quick once over, why on earth would I consider firing up a stationary engine without giving it a quick once over?

yet another clouding the issue comment.
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As far as the subsoil is concerned you poured your block inside an outside building, if it took the weight of stone walls the lister will be no problem, so another assumption / straw man argument that simply did not apply to the original intended usage of these engines... see a pattern forming here?

Not really , there's plenty of conditons where subsoil will turn to moosh (technical term) or settle when a lot of vibrations are applied to it. Building walls generally don't vibrate. But was I was trying to say is that there are factors that need to be considered with every type of mount. Incidentally, I recieved the engineer's report today for the place I'm building. The pole foundations have to go 20 feet in (!!) to take into account an unstable, saturated clay layer in the slope. Apart from me clutching my chest about how much that's going to cost  ;) , it raises questions of how much jiggling is going to be safe for me regarding my choice of engine. I'm hoping in my case, that a fancy-pants mount with low energy transfer to the ground will solve my problem. But I will be discussing it with the engineer.

"slope", mmm, and "clay", _you_ have those things, I don't, now if I were to take your attitude I would be asking if you expected me or anyone else to pay for complex and expensive site surveys before siting our listers....

if I was anywhere near a slope with clay I'd be drilling lateral inclided drainage holes throughout that slope and piping them in, only way to stabilise clay is keep water away from it.
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As for the engine balance, You just bought a Lister, you paid as much as you would for a house, it was properly engineered. SO yet more assumptions that exist for no purpose other than to mask the obvious differences, differences which need addressing, and not with more assumptions. These differences are where all the problems lie.

But you can't buy a lister new anymore, even if you're willing to pay as much as a house. (hippy voice) You're stuck in the past, man! Contemporise! (/hippy voice) We're stuck with new engines that are apparently a case of random-parts-assembled. So someone takes the general advice to bolt it to a block of crete before running, gets a fair bit of vibration, pours a bigger block (because that will solve all the issues, according to many posts I've read) - 50 hours later something tears off his engine and goes through a wall. An original lister will not have this problem, granted. Everyone else will to some extent.

Again you make my point, you can't buy a lister, so you have to go right through the entire engine, so you have to know how to go right through an entire engine, so you have to know what is different from the originals and how you can get as close to that as possible.


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Remember that Lister engineer that came around and comissioned the set, that is he did if you wanted your warranty.

Think you could sneak a 20:1 mix of sea sand and old crete past his nose? Or fasten it down not at a level with 5/16 high tensile bolts? Or maybe re-build and "improve" the engine with various trick mods?

Err, no.


He's long dead, most likely. Or retired, anyway. Again, If you get a listeroid (or a used lister) these days, you're on your own. Do it right, whichever way you do it.

But which way is right?

You could suggest that Lister knew what they were doing and follow their lead, I wouldn't suggest it because all you will be met with is scorn from everyone as soon as they realise that this approach will not fit in with their plans, and their plans are all that count.

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Yeah, I deliberately poked the hornets nest, but it seems that is the only way to get some people to wake up to the fact that that mellow buzzing and smooth shape does not mean it is a surgical appliance.

Fair enough. Sometimes you have to poke the nest to give everyone a reality check.

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So how about coming back to be with an argument that actually holds water, instead of one that requires a bunch of so unlikely as to be impossible connected scenarios like blind owners who can't see concrete cracking but can mix sea sand cement and can make trick mods to an engine and can do all this so well the Lister engineer doesn't notice a damn thing?

Lister engineer aside, these engines will run unattended. And never underestimate the stupidity of people. Do we both agree on that? Anyone can make a slab, drop an engine on it and call it done. One hopes that they inspect it regularly, just like they regularly inspect eveything else.

Never underestimating the stupidity of people is where I have been coming from all the way through all my posts.

The trouble is there are always people eager to prove you did under estimate them...
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You wonder why George at Utterpower (who I have never met so this is just speculation on my part) has started to sell a "kit" and not an "engine"
Cover Your Ass

Yeah, CYA is everywhere these days. But is it a CYA with the EPA thing or CYA with the liability thing? Going over his site, you often find mention of some way of doing something and then a small "and I never would recommend you do work on an open flywheel engine".

You (well, I) make assumptions that the people you converse with have a good idea of the risks. But that doesn't stop something going wrong and some lawsuit coming on down. But is the alternative do and say nothing and letting all your info go? Guy_F, if you were painfully aware of the possibility of legal action every time you recommended something on this forum , would you continue to post? In the legal world, there's no such thing as common sense when you're talking saftey issues. If you say "Well, anyone with common sense would know not to fall in that open manhole I left unbarricaded", it ain't gonna fly.

There is a world of difference between making a sensible suggestion that is in tune with the status quo and backed up by decades of standard practice, and talking shit basically, at least, there is a world of difference IF you have the knowledge and experience to tell them apart, in which case you won't be coming here looking for answers or suggestions....

The majority of people coming here ARE looking for answers and suggestions, and they literally cannot tell the shit from the shinola.


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I dunno. It's all definitely food for thought.

(edit: damn nested quotes)


In a world where people are suing musicians because their kid played the record backwards and followed the instructions (which are unintelligible to anyone who isn't stoned) to kill himself, the point is not that the people lost the lawsuit, the point is such lawsuits happen every day of the week, most of them just aren't newsworthy, but none of them are cheap.

This is a world where anyone can come on to a website called LISTER ENGINE dot com (as clear as you like an indication it is official and knowledgeable and trustworthy and expert etc m'lud) and follow advice given by people who do not own a lister, have never owned a lister, have never operated a lister, and have precisely zero experience of stationary diesel engines.

So these people will buy some old steel, use a walmart welder to make a frame that rings solid and doesn't tear apart in their bare hands, they will then buy some cheap ass rubber mounts, and put half a ton of engine on said steel frame.

They won't give a shit about fatigue or harmonics or anything else, because it is old hat, there is new technology now, everything is bigger, brighter, better and in technicolour too. Besides, all these things have been discounted, only stupid anal old farts like that english dude who whines a lot give a damn, besides, this is only a puny weedy cute little sexy slow revving 6 brake horsepower engine, my lawnmover makes more than that, what can possibly go wrong...

When their total lack of QA listeroid bolted to their chickenshit steel frame with birdshit welding via totally unsiitable (but cheap) rubber mounts turns around and bites them with 10 Mega watts of fang (yeah, you read that right, there is that plus a whole load more instantaneous power available) and little johnny who was playing next door 300 yards away has his brains spread all over the lawn by flying cast iron you can bet your ass little johnnys parents are going to sue everyone even remotely connected, because little johnny was going to grow up and be the next joe dimaggio don't you know.

You meanwhile will be thanking your lucky stars little johnny is dead, if he was just brain damaged for life it could have gotten really expensive.

============================================

All my experience of engineering and assholes has taught me one thing, and I kid you not.

The one person likely to walk away from such a disaster (no such thing as an accident) completely unhurt is most likely to be the asshole that threw it together....  I actually saw a stationary engine and ac generator disintegrate when the coupling (it was direct coupled) blew up, those vibes cracked the steel frame (you guessed it and threw everything a few thou outta line, only a question of time until it let go) the ONE person not hit by ANY of the debris was the asshole who was responsible for it.

I got a nice gash to my cheek, a broken spectacle lens (lucky I was wearing them) and a cracked rib, the cracked rib was when a mate rugby tackled me to stop me connecting with the asshole with a swinging 4" pipe wrench (stilson to englishmen) and we both went down onto another piece of generator...

One crescent shaped piece of coupling only 5 inches in diameter was embedded in a piece of 1/8th steel plate, nearly punched through, and this was a 4 pole 50 Hz job so only spinning at 1500 rpm.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Doug

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2006, 11:56:23 PM »
Now I'm scared to start that Petter and even more confused as to where it fits into the stationary equation since it is consider sort of portable. I was going to pour a block and bend up a gaurd for the fly wheel.
Now I am left with the feeling my foundation and gaurd aren't up to the task....

Doug

Guy_Incognito

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2006, 12:39:06 AM »
I wish you'd stop clouding the issue with "clouding the issue" comments.  I have trouble keeping up with what the issue is. Someone keeps changing it. Anyway, let me check over your reply. Hmmm. We seem to be in agreement on some issues. That's disturbing.  ;D

Ok, I'll post this, and then I really need to get to bed.

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Unless you have x-ray vision, literally, you have no fucking idea how good or bad a weld is.....

You don't need xray vision to check welds for defects. Did lister x-ray their metal bases and their welds? Who's to say they had people that could weld half a damn? Only the fact that their welds held together under the loads they were presented with. I could say the same thing about my welds doing the same, but it's clouding the issue, I guess.

It would be nice to be certain as in 100% God-damn-fucking-certain-because-we're-launching-this-thing-to-orbit-next-week. But there are other alternatives. You can crack test without it, you can load the frame to check for non-fatigue failure (i.e. birdshit welding), you can simply observe any outside changes - as you should be , when you're doing your regular maintenance - and if the thing doesn't tear off in your 50 hour stress test, it's "adequate" to the point that you keep an eye on your frame, like you keep an eye on everything else.  Again , if this was a commercial enterprise and lots of this design were to be sold, I would take it further with extended trials over many frames and engines to ensure enough hours are there to be deemed adequate. Enough evidence that if something did fail by chance and hurt someone, that I'd be able to stand in the dock and say, "I fulfilled my obligations with regards to my duty of care to the best of my ability, here's my test data on the frame." Like it or not, those obligations are different if you're in business compared to a guy in his backyard. It would be nice if the backyard guy could at least try and do the same.

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As to who checks equipment over, who doesn't?
I would not dream of getting on a bike without giving it a quick once over, why on earth would I consider firing up a stationary engine without giving it a quick once over?

Lots of people don't check their gear, as evidenced by accidents where things that they should have checked fell off. Those people are out there in the population and .... dammit. I've lost my train of thought. I suspect that somewhere here we're in agreement though, so I can't figure out why I'm trying to rebutt you on this one.

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"slope", mmm, and "clay", _you_ have those things, I don't, now if I were to take your attitude I would be asking if you expected me or anyone else to pay for complex and expensive site surveys before siting our listers....

No, but I'd expect that you or your lister engineer would be aware of the possiblity as it might cause you trouble later on down the track, just as welding or fatigue issues might trouble me down the track. Anyway, it was an incidental remark, about the clay in my subsoil. It's just weighing on my mind a little bit cost-wise. It's a high rainfall area, keeping water out as you suggest is difficult in that region apparently.

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Again you make my point, you can't buy a lister, so you have to go right through the entire engine, so you have to know how to go right through an entire engine, so you have to know what is different from the originals and how you can get as close to that as possible.

But which way is right?

You could suggest that Lister knew what they were doing and follow their lead, I wouldn't suggest it because all you will be met with is scorn from everyone as soon as they realise that this approach will not fit in with their plans, and their plans are all that count.

Ok. I think this is where we keep butting heads.
I believe there is no 100% right way to do it. Engine design-wise, lister had a pretty good thing going, but to say that it's the be-all and end-all is a bit simplistic. There were plenty of production changes along the history of their engines. Incremental improvements can be had, fundamental ones are tough. As you say, in an indian lister there's a lot of room for improvement. Cloning a lister down to the last detail is a topic for another debate perhaps.

Regarding mounts, for the bulk of the listeroid population, a concrete block mount is a good choice. As I've said before somewhere, it's a good catch-all for 90% of mounts, and personally, I think that's why lister went with it as a Standard Mount - it saves a lot of issues where some sort of other, non-standard mount might be a factor. For some of the population, resilient mounts are a better choice for them - with all their pros and cons weighed up - than a concrete mount.

And I don't think I've been scorning people who go with a concrete mount. I've outlined that I have special requirements and that a concrete mount might not be the most suitable choice for me. Yes, my plans are all that count for me, but I'm willing to go the extra distance to get a listeroid nicely integrated into them because the lister design has advantages and simplicity in areas that I need. It's extra work for me as opposed to getting some other engine, but I believe it can be done to my satisfaction and to a level of safety that I am comfortable with. What does concern me is that some people have a lower level that they're comfortable with. I don't want a half-assed resilient mount solution that involves a couple of bits of angle and a car tyre, I want to get the real deal sorted out.

Unfortunately , I can't tell people what to do. I can say things like "Ooo. Be careful you don't find a resonant spot with those mounts you're looking at , they might be pretty close to a lister's natural thump". I can give people data all about the hows and whys of resilient mounts, but you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. Of course, after typing all that I think I suddenly understand how you feel about me. Well, I feel your pain to some extent.

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Never underestimating the stupidity of people is where I have been coming from all the way through all my posts.
The trouble is there are always people eager to prove you did under estimate them...

Agreed. Sorry if I missed your subtext in your previous posts. Hmmm. I guess you underestimated me a little bit there.

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There is a world of difference between making a sensible suggestion that is in tune with the status quo and backed up by decades of standard practice, and talking shit basically, at least, there is a world of difference IF you have the knowledge and experience to tell them apart, in which case you won't be coming here looking for answers or suggestions....

The majority of people coming here ARE looking for answers and suggestions, and they literally cannot tell the shit from the shinola.

Hmmm. With the clarity of hindsight, I have progressed on this forum thusly :
- Saying "HI What's all this stuff about? I wonder about some sort of soft mount..",
- To reading everyone's highly divisive posts on the topic,
- Deducing that everyone's full of shit including myself, because I can't back my gut feel with numbers,
- And finally going off elsewhere to find some hard numbers and science to see if it's possible or not.

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(other stuff deleted for brevity, but generally ringing true)
The one person likely to walk away from such a disaster (no such thing as an accident) completely unhurt is most likely to be the asshole that threw it together....

Correct. I am trying to mesh mature technology with, well, it's not new tech, but slightly less mature technology. The basic principles of each are in fact surprisingly closer than you think. To do this properly requires serious thought and effort, of which I am attempting to do. As you put it, I'm trying very hard to not be the "asshole that threw it together." Don't panic on my fumbling of the numbers - I know my limitations there. I have interested people in the relevant fields that want to find a way for this to work  - basically, while they're not actually out there designing something, I'm paying them to double-check the work we do and provide suggestions as we go along. So far, the consensus is that with what we've got, it's plausible to do something that's both safe and good at keeping impulse forces being transferred to the ground.

My primary goal is to get a working flexible system that works for me - it's important and I value the safety of myself and others, which is why I'm ponying up the cash to help get it done right. My secondary goal is to sweep the jumbled bits of rubber and angle iron off the playing field and say, "If you want to do a flexible mount, for best results and safety, look at this design, here are all the basic steps of how and why. Don't skimp on the finer details."

Ok, I've really got to go to bed. I sincerely hope I won't re-read this post later on and say, "what the hell was I on!?"
But past postings tend to indicate this might be the case. ;)

fuddyduddy

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2006, 12:54:51 AM »
You  know, there are some REALLY foul and evil people who post on this forum.  They continually muddy and roil the "waters", and leave a trail of slime and hatred every-time and every-where they post.

Last year, there were just over 43,000 people killed in motor vehicle crashes in the USA, and another 2, 700,000 people injured.

There are about 1,000 railroad fatalities every year in the USA.

Now, how many persons were killed and/or injured in flywheel explosions????   I could only find one recent related event, and that was  in 1999, a youngster pulled into a rotating PTO on a tractor. Not even a flywheel explosion, was it?

Let's get real about the "dangerous" flywheels. We have at least two instances of the 1500 RPM Minipetters being operated at or near 4,000 rpm, and guess what? No flywheel explosions. George at utterpower has heard of one (maybe) flywheel explosion in New Zealand on a GM90 16 or 20 HP single with HUGE flywheels being operated at several times the recommended max rim speed.

The engineered safety standard is about 4 to 1 for the Listeroids.

This subject as been absolutely beaten to death in this forum and others.

If you want to cut your fatality/injury risks, quite driving. It is that simple.

Let's please quit the BS about flywheels., because that is all it is, BS!





Doug

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2006, 01:48:48 AM »
I have to disagree with you a little Fuddy Duddy:

We are beating this around a little more than needed, but sometimes I overlook things and perhaps I would be better served to head some advice and bolt to a block even though my Petter doesn't have the mass of Lister.

I could still loose a key....
Parts can fail rattle free like ,my starter....
I think my plan for a gaurd was a little wimpy now that I consider 150 pounds of wheel spinning at 1400-1800 rpm...
Vibration is bad for engines and maybe portability with a 1 litre Petter isn't wise....

I need more information!

Foul language is a little bothersome as is the sniping

I am getting something from this....

I recently got a safety bulitin from a friend at an oil company out west with a picture of a mangled face caused by a stupid unsafe act. Something I would never do but the image sure unsettled me. Sometimes its good to get a little bit scare and a "what if" to keep your mind on safety and not convenience.

PM me and I'll send you a report that will cause some lost sleep and an image you won't get out of your head for a while. But as to drawing the line between being sesational or informative ( safety on flywheels and foundations ) I am not qualified to judge so I will read on and ask questions....

Doug
« Last Edit: October 03, 2006, 01:52:19 AM by Doug »

Jim Mc

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2006, 02:00:56 AM »
Yeah,  I'll disagree a little with you too Fuddy Duddy.

The term "flywheel explosion" was not any where in this thread, until YOU mentioned it.

Go back and read  - it's not there.

Other hazards are mentioned, sure.  And some of them warrant more than a passing thought...