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Author Topic: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)  (Read 29735 times)

GuyFawkes

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2006, 07:40:29 PM »
Guy
When Lister engines were produced the best solution for mounting was a huge concrete block.  It has been what 40 yrs since they were last produced by Lister?

so?
do you think the laws of physics have changed?

Quote

Do you acknowledge that new technologies have been developed?


yes, I can name many of them, microelectronics, some branches of biochemistry, some branches of high energy physics.

none of them have ANYTHING even remotely to do with a lister.

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As someone else said on this topic the concrete block was a good “catch all” solution.

Well it is the year 2006 and science has advanced.


but the laws of physics have not changed

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Materials and techniques not available 40 years ago are available today.


but your listeroid is not made from ceramic, or fullerines, or stereolithographically assembled polymers...

nor is your listeroid machined from billet by high precision cnc, nor is it assembled by nanobots or made from exotic matter.

what part of this don't you get?



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 It is closed minded to think that it is impossible to improve on the concrete block solution that Lister used.  Innovation never came out of a mind that thinks along the lines  …..it has always been done this way therefore it can’t be done better.     


who said I have a closed mind?

I'm open to suggestions, I haven't seen any.

All I have seen is bullshit like "technology has moved on you know" like that somehow changed the laws of physics.

Depleted uranium would make an EXCELLENT material for a base, even better than crete, excepts it ain't cheap as chips, except its got one of them "nucular" words in it.....

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The exercise taking place here is adapting old technology to a modern world.

thank you, you have just proven that you don't have a clue what a lister is, it is not old technology, but old methodology.

Listers were making and selling the CS series AFTER NEIL ARMSTRONG WENT FOR A STROLL ON THE MOON, a whole decade and some change after.

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 Some believe "if it aint broken dont fix it" others are not satisfied with the status quo and are looking for a better solution.  Incremental progress has taken place over the last 40 years and to dismiss these advances as irrelevant is just silly. 


they are as irrelevant TO LISTERS as tits on a bull.


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As you requested Guy below is an engine that is similar to the Lister, it has a flywheel; it is 4 cycle and single cylinder. 


and it has a piston too and everything, do you think the parts might fit my start-o-matic?

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These are mounted in residential and commercial buildings.  The manufacturer decided to adopt modern technology vs. mounting it to a big block of concrete.


how do you know this, were you part of the desin team?

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 This is a small power plant that uses vibration dampeners per the technical people I spoke with. And yes I know it is not exactly the same as a Lister but it is like it in many ways, many of the forces are the similar, albeit at lower levels


Yeah, like a lister in the same way that an overweight cat is in many ways like a lion, many of the forces are similar, albeit at lower levels....



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These are sold primarily on your side of the pond. You may be able to see one in action at a town near you.  I submit that this company satisfies your requirement for an example of an….”official commercial stationary engine manufacturer official documentation describing a permitted flexible mount”…..  The mounting technology is not specifically noted in the literature, but I called the company and they described an internal frame with 4 isolated mounting points.


http://www.marathonengine.com/downloads/diesel_progress_08-04.pdf

http://www.marathonengine.com/cogeneration.html


how many units have they sold?
how many units have 100k+ hours on them?
how many decades have they been selling them?

and the big one (and be careful, because I know the answer)

HOW MUCH OF EACH UNIT IS ACTUALLY MANUFACTURED IN HOUSE?

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In the end what is important is finding the best mounting option for each situation.  When you have one solution for every situation you end up with a less than optimal solution for many situations. 


we don't have every situation, we don't have detroits and cats and lycomings and deutz and sauzer and so on and so forth

we have lister cs series, and clones of lister cs series.



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One constant is the desire for a stable long lived engine, if there are no other variables added then the” bigger is better” solution of a concrete block makes sense. 

The block IS a variable, a major one.

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Once you start adding requirements such as vibration control and sound attenuation you have to look beyond the simple concrete block solution.

Yes you do, and nowhere in there is there anything to suggest to start by throwing the baby out with the bathwater and ditching the concrete block....

Vibration control is dealt with by dealing with the entire engine + head + block as a system.

Sound deadening is dealt with by dealing with the above

Thermal rejection is then dealt with by dealing with all of the above.


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Regarding the engineer I am working with.  His job is to design stationary engine mounts, I have confidence he know what he is doing, he has worked on projects far more complex than mounting a Lister type engine.  I submit he has both the “book” knowledge and the practical experience required to advise me about mounting my Lister type engine. 

Guy You say…. “how do you know your chosen engineer is competent to do what you are paying him for? By definition, the fact that you contracted him is proof you are not able to determine his ability.”

What the hell kind of logic is that??  If you are not an expert in a certain field and you seek expert advise you, by definition are not qualified to do so??  Come on that is just ridiculous.


It is simple logic.

If you could do it yourself you would not need to hire someone.
If you hire someone because you cannot do it yourself then you cannot verify his work.
If you cannot verify his work then you have no idea if he is any good.

Most people in that situation spread bet the odds by getting three quotes and specifications, then look for discrepancies between them.




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The subject engine is a 12/1 my assumption is if this engine can be tamed, then smaller engines and dual cylinders should be easier.

My requirements are:
1 No additional stress imparted on the engine or generator vs. mounting to solid block of concrete


Right there you have it, your number one priority, and it can ONLY be achieved by bolting soldily to a massive concrete block. (Or a massive depleted uranium block if you want to play devils advocate and ignore cost and practicality and fitness for purpose etc)

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2 Reduction of vibration transmitted to the floor and surrounding ground


This is quite separate and different from requirement #1, it will therefore require a separate solution in addition to #1

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3 Reduction in noise levels outside of the engine room.


ditto #2

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Only time will validate requirement 1 (the engineer said no added stress will be caused)


If he said that then he will specify a concrete block, nothing else (practical and affordable) will satisfy this.

This is not an opinion. This is a fact.

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Requirement 2 should be evident immediately; he expects 90% isolation at 1000rpm
     (During startup and shutdown there will be more vibration as this system will be “tuned” for operating rpm of 1000)


90% isolation is meaningless, literally.

90% of what? and I mean of what PRECISELY.

I will bet both testicles and my dick you do not have extensive 3 axis accelerometer time / frequency / displacement data for your engine under varying loads.

I can get you 90% less tyre wear per year, all i have to do is limit the throttle travel so you get 10 mph top speed, when you whine about the top speed I will point out the stunning fuel consumption you are now getting in grams per minute.


Quote
Requirement 3 is objective and easily measured.


No it isn't.

Trust me on this.

Double glazing might keep out a lot of noise, but it lets in a lot too, and because it isn't a straight line across the frequency range what is let in is more noticeable.

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I do not know what the outcome will be, if it turns out that I need to mount it to a block then so be it.


How much are you paying your engineer?

Then when he comes up with his solution tell us how much that will cost to implement.

How much is a yard of concrete BTW?

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 I am more concerned with finding the best solution vs. trying to defend my point of view or being right. 


I'm not trying to defend MY point of view, and I don't care about being right, I am right.

Lister sold millions of engines, no mention anywhere or anything but concrete blcok mounting for CS series stationary engines.

Disagree with listers, then call it what it is, you thinking you know better than listers, don't call it what it ain't, you disagreeing with guy fawkes.

Guy fawkes did not found, own and run listers for a century.

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I will go where the results take me.  Guy open up your mind to the POSSIBILIYT  there is a better way.  No one will think less of you if you are willing to think outside of the box.   


http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/irony

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Shortly after I discovered the Lister type engines there were all kinds postings that the EPA banned them.  This was generally accepted as fact; people were looking for “ways around” the problem.  I did my own research and contacted the EPA directly vs. relying on someone else’s interpretation of the regulations.  If I had just accepted the “fact” that these engines were no longer allowed I would be without an engine today.  Positive things happen when people challenge the status quo, progress is made. 


Scott

P.S. The world is flat...it says so on the map.

--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

rcavictim

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2006, 08:38:12 PM »
Well I guess now I have firsthand experience of what a broken record sounds like.  Jeepers H criminy already.  GuyFawkes, why don`t you move to Quebec and join the Bloc.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
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-Want Lister 6/1
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GuyFawkes

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2006, 09:55:10 PM »
Well I guess now I have firsthand experience of what a broken record sounds like.  Jeepers H criminy already.  GuyFawkes, why don`t you move to Quebec and join the Bloc.

it's not a stuck record.

it is a fact of life that many people don't seem to want to be reminded of, that facts don't change just because you don't like them.

I have just repeated the same facts throughout, eg lister made millions of engine, nowhere in any documentation for the cs series stationary engines do you see anything other than concrete block mounting mentioned.

Nobody has a good answer for this, because there isn't one.

So I just get a whole load of bad bullshit answers, like technology has moved on, like this somehow affects the laws o f physics, or other engines do this, like this somehow affects listers, or new materials, like this somehow changes what a listeroid is made from, or any one of the other excuses we have seen here.

I can show a ton of documentation that shows ONLY concrete block mounting.

Nobody has shown ANY documentation that shows ANYTHING else for ANYTHING even approaching a lister.

=========================================

If, for example, I was making an on the face of it could fly argment that was false, but sounded good, it could be easily debunked, so I will now prove this by making one up.

Diesel engines are heavy, aircraft need excess weight like a hole in the head, therefore there are no aircraft powered by diesel engines.

There you go, makes plenty of common sense, now I will fire up google, back in a mo

wow....

copied and pasted the first page of results

DeltaHawk Diesel Engines
DeltaHawk's V-4 Turbo Diesel Aircraft Engine < designed from the ground up as a compression-ignition general aviation engine > ...
www.deltahawkengines.com/ - 23k - Cached - Similar pages

Bill Sherwood's Crazy Ideas, Diesel Aircraft Engine
Diesel engines aren't new in aircraft; the Germans and Japanese used them extensively in the middle of the 20th century. One of the problems with diesels is ...
www.billzilla.org/ideas4.htm - 13k - Cached - Similar pages

Aircraft diesel engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
They produce four-stroke, liquid-cooled, geared, turbo-diesel aircraft engines based on Mercedes automotive designs which will run on both Diesel and Jet ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_diesel_engine - 17k - Cached - Similar pages

WWW . DIESELAIR . COM -- The Diesel Air Newsletter -- Home
The Coming of diesel aircraft: The DieselAir Report is available! ... One remark: DieselAir undertook in 2002 a US market forecast for diesel aircraft. ...
dieselair.com/ - 79k - Cached - Similar pages

DELTAHAWK, INC. Recreational Diesel Engines Engine Specs
There were Diesel aircraft engines decades ago (Guiberson, Packard, Rolls-Royce, Clerget, Fiat...). In the 1930's the Junkers JUMO. ...
members.aol.com/erospace/diesel.htm - 17k - Cached - Similar pages

Turbo Diesel aircraft engine, Smart Car turbo diesel installed in ...
Turbo Diesel aircraft engine, Smart Car turbo diesel installed in light sport aircraft Ramphos trike.
www.ultralightflyer.com/airshow-snf05/19.html - 31k - Cached - Similar pages

Packard-Diesel Powered Buhl Air Sedan, 1930
With the Packard order, the Wright engine was exchanged for the new experimental Packard diesel aircraft engine. The airplane was then "experimental" until ...
home.earthlink.net/~ralphcooper/pimage26.htm - 10k - Cached - Similar pages

zoche aero-diesels homepage
Decades ago there were several Diesel aircraft engines (built by Guiberson, Packard, Rolls-Royce, Clerget, Fiat and others). In the 1930´s the Junkers "Jumo ...
www.zoche.de/ - 9k - Cached - Similar pages

Treehugger: Q & A : Biodiesel Airplanes?
From what we've seen, biodiesel performs well in diesel aircraft engines, reducing emissions of NOx and unburned carbon. Diesel aircraft are propeller ...
www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/q_a_biodiesel_a.php - 97k - Cached - Similar pages

Aircraft diesel engine: Information From Answers.com
Aircraft diesel engine The diesel engine has not been widely used as an aircraft engine . Its excellent specific fuel consumption has been outweighed.
www.answers.com/topic/aircraft-diesel-engine - 38k - Cached - Similar pages


there is that eminently plausible idea debunked, nay, beaten to death in an eyeblink.


so WHERE IS THE DOCUMENTATION to support using flexible mounts on a Lister?
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

SCOTT

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2006, 11:16:53 PM »
Guy
When Lister engines were produced the best solution for mounting was a huge concrete block.  It has been what 40 yrs since they were last produced by Lister?
Quote
 
so? do you think the laws of physics have changed?
 

Nope, I never suggested they did,  this rebuttal is a Red Herring

As someone else said on this topic the concrete block was a good “catch all” solution.
Well it is the year 2006 and science has advanced.

Quote
but the laws of physics have not changed
 
Again Where did I ever suggest that the laws of physics changed? 


….Materials and techniques not available 40 years ago are available today.

Red Herring #2
Quote
 
 but your listeroid is not made from ceramic, or fullerines, or stereolithographically assembled polymers...
nor is your listeroid machined from billet by high precision cnc, nor is it assembled by nanobots or made from exotic matter.
what part of this don't you get?

Who ever said that what a listeroid was made of was in question?  The question is about concrete vs resilient mounting.  The compounds and techniques used to mount engines have changed in the last 40 years.  I get it…. why you hold on to your belief  that the Lister way is the only way is my question.

You asked for an example of 
Quote
   
An official commercial stationary engine manufacturer official documentation describing a permitted flexible mount”…..
 
 

I provided such an example and you dismiss it out of hand.  Did you even bother to look at the engine or the company?   Then you go on to ask more irrelevant questions

Quote
   
how many units have they sold?
how many units have 100k+ hours on them?
how many decades have they been selling them?
   


Oh and here is a good one.
Red Herring  #6 including the 3 above.

Quote
   
and the big one (and be careful, because I know the answer)
   
The engine is made in the USA the electronics are made in Germany  As if that has anything at all to do with the way they mount the engine.


In the end what is important is finding the best mounting option for each situation.  When you have one solution for every situation you end up with a less than optimal solution for many situations.   

Red Herring #7
Quote
     we don't have every situation, we don't have detroits and cats and lycomings and deutz and sauzer and so on and so forth

we have lister cs series, and clones of lister cs series.
   

The situations I was referring to are for mounting a Lister type engine, you know this, bringing in other engines is just an attempt to cloud the issue.

Once you start adding requirements such as vibration control and sound attenuation you have to look beyond the simple concrete block solution.

Red Herring #8

Quote
   Yes you do, and nowhere in there is there anything to suggest to start by throwing the baby out with the bathwater and ditching the concrete block....
Vibration control is dealt with by dealing with the entire engine + head + block as a system.
Sound deadening is dealt with by dealing with the above
Thermal rejection is then dealt with by dealing with all of the above. 
   


Redesigning the engine is not an option as you have pointed out many times before we Listeroid buyers have to work with what we have, we can look for an improved mounting system.


This non constructive banter is getting old.  Guy if I presented you with documents from Lister himself suggesting a mount other than a block of concrete you still would not change your mind.  You are so invested and convinced that you are right that you are unwilling to even consider anything but block mounting. 

You ask for examples of manufacturers using mounts other than a block of concrete.  I provide one and you dismiss the company, and their technology all to maintain your belief system that the end all be all in mounting a stationary engine is a big block of concrete. 

I enjoy a good debate but when the counterparty is not willing to have an honest discussion and tries to muddy the water with irrelevant nonsense like using depleted uranium as a mount it becomes useless to continue the discussion. 

Once I have the results from the engineer I will implement the system and take  before and after video clips along with db readings.  I will make the specs of the mounts avaliable to anyone who is interested.  Anyone who cares can judge for themselves how they want to mount their engine.


Scott
net metering with a 6/1 in Connecticut
12/1
6/1

GuyFawkes

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2006, 01:36:50 AM »

This non constructive banter is getting old.  Guy if I presented you with documents from Lister himself suggesting a mount other than a block of concrete you still would not change your mind.  You are so invested and convinced that you are right that you are unwilling to even consider anything but block mounting. 


Only because you refuse, flatly, to read what I write, respond to what I write, and quote what I write.

You prefer to read whatever meaning you choose into what I write, respond to things I do no write, and quote things I did not say.

IT IS NOT A QUESTION OF MY MIND BEING MADE UP ONE WAY OR ANOTHER DUMBASS.

THERE IS ONLY ONE POINT OF FOCUS HERE.

Lister, who made millions of engines, never, anywhere, in any documentation for the CS series stationary engines, which were still in production a decade after neil armstrong walked on the moon, which means they had access to every sort of flexible mount and material you can shake a stick at, never fucking ever talked about anything except mounting the engine solidly to a concrete block.

THIS IS NOT GUY FAWKES OPINION.

This is fact, I have made available for download several original lister documents out of my library, other people have them too, and other documents, yet NOBODY can produce anything that says anything except concrete block.

THIS IS NOT GUY FAWKES OPINION

THIS IS NOT A MATTER OF OPINION, PERIOD.

This is fact.

I do not have a fucking opinion on the subject, I have an opinion on which argument carries most weight, an argument made by a world class engine manufacturer with a century of commercial experience, or the argument of a few bloody idiots who do not know if their own assholes were punched or bored, who cannot, despite repeated very blunt asking, produce a single bit of documentary evidence from a respected source to support their argument, who have never designed, produced or sold a single stationary engine in their lives, but who are nevertheless determined that they are correct.

Quote

You ask for examples of manufacturers using mounts other than a block of concrete.  I provide one and you dismiss the company, and their technology all to maintain your belief system that the end all be all in mounting a stationary engine is a big block of concrete. 


I do not dismiss it in order to maintain my "belief", for one because I have no belief, and for two because the reason I dismiss it is simply because it is plainly specious.

it is half the displacement of a lister cs, a mere fraction, literally a fraction, of the mass, probably will not even tick over at the lister running speed, it is not vertically oriented, it is not continuous duty, it is not external flywheel, I could go on and on, a Lister d is more like a cs than that thing you linked to, and a lister d is spark ignition.

Quote


I enjoy a good debate but when the counterparty is not willing to have an honest discussion and tries to muddy the water with irrelevant nonsense like using depleted uranium as a mount it becomes useless to continue the discussion.


it is not a debate, you are claiming that x is possible, I am saying world authority y who made z number of these engines over a period of fifty years, long after man walked on the moon, and yes they were collaborating closely with other world class engineering and engine manufacturing firms world wide, so hardly in a technological vacuum, quite evidently never ever ever thought your position was tenable, which is why they never published anything mentioning it for the cs series.

because it has become apparent that I am talking to (technically speaking) idiots who like to take what I said and turn it into something I did not say, which was that Moses handed down the commandments to Lister, thou shalt bolt thy engine to a block of portland cement, and no other material, I spread the load a bit, yeah, you can use blocks of other materials to serve the same purpose as the block of cement, but none of them are practical.

Depleted uranium would be excellent all around, except it does fatigue quite badly and when it does it tends to form shards with sharp edges, which is why it makes a good munition...

Quote


Once I have the results from the engineer I will implement the system and take  before and after video clips along with db readings.  I will make the specs of the mounts avaliable to anyone who is interested.  Anyone who cares can judge for themselves how they want to mount their engine.


Scott


scott, it's your engine, do what you like with it, I frankly don't give a shit, I'm not going to be near enough to it to worry one way or another. If you blow your big end or walk a flywheel off the cranks it ain't going to cost me a single cent or the slightest grief.

HERE IS THE TRUTH.

100% unadulterated zero bullshit truth.

I already got a Lister, genuine article, start-o-matic, in great condition, you know the saying "I'm all right Jack!" well I am, I am also a time served engineer who grew up around Lister CSs amongst other things. There is absolutely fuck all that you or kyrdawg et al can offer me, even for free, that is worth taking.

On the contrary, I have far more to give than I will ever recieve, I put some 80 megs of downloads and pictures up for free for anyone who wanted, I arranged one genuine lister for one board member (yeah, I asked for and got 50 quid for my "time", trust me I could have made more charging a punter for that time, and now there is someone else on here who may want to use my help in getting a genuine Lister.

The crack, what made it worth it, was community, talking to smart people, and some of the thread drift that got people talking about things they knew about.

Arguing the toss with people who are too blind and too stupid to see that the CS was made from 1929 until 1987, and in 1969 man walked on the moon, which was when concorde, a supersonic passenger transport first flew, which was 3 years after the world trade centre was started, and 1969 was EIGHTEEN fucking years before CS production stopped, and TWELVE years before the first space shuttle in 1981, which was SIX YEARS before cs production stopped. And you think somehow the guys at lister, who were a 30 minute drive from places that knew all about supersonic aircraft and spacecraft, who were literally in the same labour pool geographically, who will have drunk beer in the same pubs as these guys, were totally unaware of all the engineering implications.

Similarly the management of this company, which was always closely tied into the military - government complex and order books, was blissfully unaware of all this and still made glorified steam engines, and , errr, still managed to sell them to their client base, which was this military - government complex...  uuuh, hang on a minute there...

Incidentally the UK government spy equivalent of langley, GCHQ, is about ten miles from Listers, so apart from the families with people working in both places, Listers exporting to Iran and the like for decades and all that other good stuff with a military industrial government marketplace kinda leads you to think lister were not run by fred flintstone.

Coventry (and Victor) was another engine / engineering firm with its nose firmly in the military industrial market, they were so good jaguar bought them, after all, coventry had designed and built engines for world +dog, from shackletons antarctic trip through triumph, morgan, crossley (and many others, thats off the top of my head) and later Lotus, TVR and cooper.  anyway jap bought coventry because they were so good at cylinder head design, point is these were all local to each other and had associations going way back, and listers made many of the castings for them.....  bamfords was a similar story, you know them now as JCB, they had a lot of mixing of blood too (I used to work for john bamford at one time and this is history straight from the horse's mouth)

You suggestion that there was "new" technology or "new" materials or "new" processes about that listers did not know about is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. It is akin to suggesting that oldsmobile developed the automatic transmission, but used it in hay balers because he never heard of a motor car.

Harry Ricardo died in 1974, 5 years after man walked on the moon, having harry ricardo working on your engine design would be like having Nicola Tesla work on your power station design or Oppenheimer working on your atom bomb design.

====================

People sometimes ask, "are you a good engineer?"

There are two answers, the first glib answer is "I am the second best engineer on this island / ship / city / whatever." to which they ask "who is the first" to which you reply "dunno, but there could be someone" and smile.

The real honest answer won't make any sense to anyone who is not themselves good enough and experienced enough to understand, the real answer is "the older I get and the more I learn, the more I realise just how many different jobs and fields of engineering I am not very good at" cos there is the thing, I can't weld as well as a welder, I can't turn as well as a turner, I can't fit better than a fitter, I can't do hydraulics better than a hydraulic bod, and if you're rushing ahead the answer isn't even that I can turn, fit, and do hydraulics better than the welder either, though i might be able to, depends on who the welder is.

the real answer is I solve problems more elegantly and effectively than any of the above, even though I may be apparently starting with totally inadequate or non existent tooling or resources.

I do it to commercial deadlines and it stays up with mission critical reliability and performance too.

that's what the big bucks are for
(well, it used to pay big bucks, nobody gives a shit now, look up "externalising" as regards to corporations)

The Lsier CS is elegant engineering, the concrete block which is the ONLY thing they specified is elegant engineering.

Flexi mounts on a CS are "heath robinson" engineering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heath_Robinson

In a CS you have an EASY 10 megawatts of instantaneous power available thanks to all that rotating mass, 10 MW, even for an instant, because an instant is all it takes, requires elegance, not heath robinson crap.

Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris.

Which basically translates as, in ceasar's day you'd be chained to an oar.

and with that I really am outta here, I don't care who you kill or maim, I'm all right jack.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

mobile_bob

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2006, 02:15:57 AM »
hey Guy,,, don't leave just yet!

been thinking about this subject for some time now, and am working on a paper that i would really like your opinion on.

it aint done yet,,, so stick around

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Guy_Incognito

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2006, 08:21:26 AM »
Poor Guy_Fawkes. So inflexible. One could almost call him a luddite - in one of the truer forms of the word -  but I'd just prefer to say that he has a lot of inertia, just like his favoured mount.

The situation is complex, no one solution fits all. Compromises are made in everything, even your treasured concrete block. Why just 2 cubic yards? Why not 10? Surely 10 would be better? Why concrete? Why not lead? or DU? A compromise was made. There's nothing wrong with the "why change it now when it's worked for so long?" attitude, unless you have an unusual case. I say again, that this simple resistance to change, which would cost a manufacturer money, was the reason that lister stuck with the block after all those years. After all, why upset the applecart now with some new design? The only reason is if the original design is unsuitable to the point where you decide that the improvement will outweigh the effort involved in changing it.

Returning to the original post on this thread, which I feel is an important thing to keep in mind:

The latent energy involved is considerable. If you choose to go down a different path, make sure you do it right. Find someone who's willing to put their arse on the line - if you're doing it yourself, well, that's you. Remember that.

Eco Diesel

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2006, 04:49:03 AM »
What I hope everyone gets out of this discussion is a grasp that we are either working/playing/experimenting with or are hoping to work/play or experiment with potentialy dangerous machinery. I will never forget my grade 10 wood shop teacher describing to the entire class that the table saw will not shed one tear when it cuts three of your fingers off or when it throws a carbide tooth deep into your eye socket because you said i don't need safety glasses for this one cut. I'll never forget when my grade 12 machine shop instructor described the horrors of what can happen just being slack minded about leaving the chuck key in the chuck. A clear mind and awarness and to be constantly thinking to yourself, have I thought of everything. Am I sure of all mechanical checks. Am i feeling aware enough or am I to tired to be operating this thing? Are my cloths loose etc. Some examples of a mechanical checks before starting up a metal lathe are to ensure the work piece is tight  and chuck key removed, The head stock speed is set at desired speed. The carriage feed and half nut levers are not engaged and proper feed rate has been selected. Is the tooling tight etc. I have used the lathe as an example only because it to like the lister engine has spinning mass, stored energy and is one of the most potentialy dangerous pieces of equipment on the planet. I also used it as an example because this past saturday I came very close to being killed or disfigured while working on my own metal Lathe. I had taken all precations and had my wits about me but when the switch gear fails after the millionth or so cycle of starts and stops it is either luck or your wits that save you. After making a cut, I pressed the foot brake which stops power to the motor and as well as hauls the chuck to a complete stop. While still pressing on the brake, grabing the chuck key and undoing the chuck by holding the chuck key and firmly turning to the left I lifted the weight of my right foot and leg off the foot brake. This normall so far. In an instant while still squeezing and turning the chuck key the lathe begun to spin up to speed. I can't express in words really how this is truely the most unexpecting thing after having used a piece of equipment over and over for many years.The chuck spinning up to speed happens much faster than one thinks. I was very fortunate to have been aware enough and quick enough to release my grasp and that the chuck key fell out before hitting the bed. Had it hit the bed I have visualized it wrapping around the chuck and either snagging my shirt or flying out. The scariest part of this incident was that when i pushed the stop button the lathe still did not shut off and it took 10 pressings and releases of the foot brake before the swith gear worked. I only wanted to share this story to help us all continue to be aware, to think and to be safe. I also think this might be part of what Guy F was trying to get across as well!

Troy   

rcavictim

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2006, 11:23:53 AM »
Bad lathe!

Troy, glad you weren`t hurt.

I`ve been spending more time on my 16x36 Southbend tool room lathe this past summer than any other time in my entire life on any lathe.  All part of the big wind turbine project.  No accidents so far.
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xyzer

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2006, 06:44:00 PM »
Hey Troy....Good points! I have been a machinist for 35 years I have seen many of these things happen. There are people walking around with one eye or 3 missing fingers. We can post pictures of these terrble accidents...records and records of history prove these safty issues. No argument here! But I say where is the records for exploding Listers? Broken crankshafts due to improper mounting? I would love to see these records. If you think people in those 3rd world countries did it the way they were supposed to I got a bridge for sale...half of them couldn't read! So..... I am not going to argue it is safe to turn your lathe on with a chuck wrench still in it....I know what will happen! But telling me you can't mount a balanced listeroid on rubber just because ain't enough to convince me!.....I would appricate factual cases.....One of the guys posted a PDF file on exploding flywheels....after reading through it most of them they were cause by governer failure and an overspeed condition....The point is there is a record of these failures....and that is what I would like to see!
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rcavictim

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2006, 08:21:48 PM »
I am not going to argue it is safe to turn your lathe on with a chuck wrench still in it....I know what will happen! But telling me you can't mount a balanced listeroid on rubber just because ain't enough to convince me!.....I would appricate factual cases.....One of the guys posted a PDF file on exploding flywheels....after reading through it most of them they were cause by governer failure and an overspeed condition....The point is there is a record of these failures....and that is what I would like to see!

I posted the link to that exploding flywheel pdf.  It was prepared by an insurance underwriter that was in the biz of insuring giant industrial flywheels, and losses were expensive so equipment inspections,  good records and accountability were all part of the process.  True, all the explosions I recall reading about were overspeed failures as you said, based on governor malfunctions.

Now consider the average owner of a Listeroid, or even a Lister probably doesn`t have specific insurance on his engine installation with a paper trail like a factory, sawmill or power plant.  If he has a mishap, even a flywheel explosion, the ejected engine part may travel farther than news of the event.  The folks that may have the best comprehensive global information on accidents would be the engine manufacturers because they would be contacted for repair parts or replacement engines.  How are you going to learn how many replacement flywheels they sell for these engines?
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
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-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2006, 08:24:40 PM »
xyzer:

you aint gonna see it because it don't exist.

i have done everything i can to drag the facts out, and to date it isnt forthcoming

i see a lot of hand wringing, and alot of unfounded assersions, but no meat, no solid evidence.

"THERE IS NO REASON AT ALL THAT A "WELL BALANCED" LISTEROID CANNOT BE MOUNTED ON A WELL ENGINEERED AND WELL MADE STEEL BASE THAT IS RESILIENT MOUNTED TO THE FLOOR."

"THAT IS A FACT,,, AND I DEFY ANYONE TO PROVE OTHERWISE, COME ON I DARE YA..."

" I DOUBLE DARE YA"

"YA YA,,, I KNOW THE LISTER ENGINEERS SIT ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD AND ALL THAT"

"EITHER PUT UP OR SHUT UP"

there maybe that will piss someone off enough to step forward and prove my statement wrong, i would like to see some factual support against the use of a steel/resilient mount.

:)

DISCLAIMER:

 i mobile bob, do not suggest that concrete bases are the wrong way to mount the engine even though there is evidence that shows problems associated with the use of concrete.
i also am not suggesting or promoting any form of mount as being safe in all circumstances for all people. i would strongly recommend from a safety standpoint, the use of many tons of concrete, guard rails, steel containment, flashing lights and placards, and never to start the engine in question.

have a nice day!

bob g



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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2006, 09:07:43 PM »
 Cover Thien Ass Bob....

I Doug, Electrician, winder, compact car pole vaulter and general jack ( of ass to some ) of all trades do here by declair. Common sence is your best defence against accidents....

Doug

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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2006, 10:39:26 PM »
Mobile Bob, I don't think it is a matter of you can't mount a Lister on a resiliant mount.  If you look at the diagram on page 8 of "Basic Vibration & Vibration Isolation Theory" by Unisor Machinery Installation Systems,  http://www.slideruleera.net/BasicVibrationTheory.pdf  you will note that the lowest  amplitude of vibration occurs when the natural frequency of the mount system is 1/3 or less than the excitation frequency of the engine.

 Only two ways to do this: low stiffness of the mounts or high mass of the engine-base system.  With low stiffness you also need to worry about exiting other degrees of freedom (horizontal translation and rotations). This is a valid concern, as a friend of mine has a listeroid on rubber mounts, it is well behaved, but does have a small  horizontal sway motion on the generator end  in addition to the expected vertical motion. I think you can mount a Lister on risiliant mounts and further, if the mounts are correct from an engineering perspective it will have lower amplitude of vibration if the whole system is rather massive ( say the base is 4 times the engine weight) as opposed to being of relatively light weight.

 Lister engineers were not gods, who is? what they did is look out at all the uncertainty involved with putting one of their engines any place on G_ds green earth and decided that the concrete foundation was the best compromise.  They probably knew that resiliant mounts could be made to work, but the probability of getting it wrong was too high.  They didn't want to loose money or generate a bad reputation on improperly designe/installed/aging resiliant mounts.

 I'm won't touch the engine service life issue with a ten foot  pole. I looked at what goes into the calculation of fatigue life and it is at best an estimate and  the determination of the needed endurance-limit modifying parameters is definitely ambiguous.

Will be away for the weekend and won't read this thread again until monday.
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Re: How to kill yourself (or someone else) with a Lister(oid)
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2006, 08:32:36 PM »
Greetings to all!

How I made it to this site still not entirely clear, one minute I was in a discussion group deciding which Moto Guzzi was/is the ultimate to own, then I clicked on a link and ... here I am, my occupation is Operating Engineer (called by some Stationary Engineer to differentiate us from Elevator Mechanics).
No degree to prove my capabilities I somehow maintain mechanical equipment, Electrical, HVAC, Fire Pumps, E-Generator, Gen-Sets, etc but know nothing about Lister Stationary's other than i've seen them in non Stationary settings at a County Show/Fair.

What I do know a little about is that you ingnore OEM instruction at YOUR peril. Sometimes "seemed like a good idea at the time" WILL get you in a whole world of trouble, "and that right quick".

As the entertaining mr Fawkes points out he's got his and doesn't care if you kill your selves but could you do it quietly so his insurance doesn't go up, this sounds reasonable to me. I've seen industrial sized chunks of mechanical equipment, it's fun when you are far enough away from it (and your livelyhood does not depend on it), less fun otherwise.


Perhaps it would help if you "see" the Block as part of the Machine and not as an option. It was not attached at the factory but it was always intended.

You can read whatever you like into why there was not a documented alternative by the OEM but the fact there was none should be cause for thought. Do we imagine that of all the customers that Lister filled orders for, none were able to persuade Lister to recommend an alternative?
It would be a plucky British Manufacturer that would not comply with the wishes of it's own Armed Forces, unless there was a damned good reason, no?

In the absence of empirical evidence to the contrary the recommended mass of a concrete block base sounds like cheap insurance to me (though the depleted Uranium idea sounds fun and would probably eliminate the need for a block heater in colder climes!).


Note for Scott, I looked at the engine in the link, it's intended life is 40,000 hours of operation so using it to buttress your argument will surely not placate Mr. F, though I suspect a hand written note from either the Pope or Mr. Lister might.

Note for Guy Fawkes, thanks for the entertainment and the education, hope you enjoy your birthday next month. 

..john