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Author Topic: 6/1 and generator setup  (Read 65397 times)

hotater

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #90 on: September 21, 2006, 01:55:06 AM »
Quote
if it's no good for a permanent install, I'll bow my head in defeat and construct the concrete block.

That's what *I* did!!
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

fuddyduddy

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #91 on: September 21, 2006, 02:01:34 AM »
"But listers are relatively high-maintenance engines anyway"

Another crock of shit from the forum.



Guy_Incognito

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #92 on: September 21, 2006, 02:04:16 AM »
"But listers are relatively high-maintenance engines anyway"
Another crock of shit from the forum.

Oh really? Compare a lister diesel to, say, the modern turbo 4 cylinder diesel in my car. High maintenance compared to that? Oh yes.

Edit: Numbers -

Lister Oil changes / top-ups - 50 hours, or when you run out of oil.
Car - 400 hours approximately, no top-ups required.

Lister life between rebuilds or major repairs  - Variable, depending on such things as I've read here, such as spun/scored bearings, broken idlers, the omnipresent leaks. Anyone here up to 10,000 hours big-repair-free on a listeroid yet?
Car - About 10,000 hours to be pretty much in need of a rebuild. A cam belt at 5000 hours.

Listers, when compared to modern diesels are relatively high-maintenance. That's part of their charm. Yes, if anything goes wrong in a modern diesel, it's generally a lot more fiddling involved to get it right again. But they really don't break that often.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2006, 02:24:43 AM by Guy_Incognito »

fuddyduddy

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #93 on: September 21, 2006, 02:27:53 AM »
Sorry Guy,
You are totally full of shit.

There are a lot of individuals  "out there" who have many hours more, even on the "early " Indian Listeroids, than your engine, whatever it is, will ever reach in your "modern" car.

In fact, you are not just full of shit, you are SO FULL of shit, that you do not even know most of the questions, let alone, the answers..

The possible exception to the rule is an LD28 Nissan, which you have probably never even heard of.   I'll even give you a clue, 7 main bearings in a 2.8 liter engine.

Quit sniffin' the crap you ar sniffin', and wake up.





Guy_Incognito

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #94 on: September 21, 2006, 02:36:45 AM »
guy all i used to isolate my frame was a rubber mat cut into 3" squares 1/2 thick stacked up 3 high. on each courner. works great.

I'll get a baseline with the frame just sitting on the dirt. With the gear that I've got, I can measure flex/twist in the frame under the engine with strain gauges, vibration transmitted locally to the ground with the seismometer and I should be able to pick up any high frequency crankcase pings with piezo sensors.

From what I see from those numbers, I'll work at solving each issue separately. I might not have to do anything, and then I'll stop there, with just a fancy frame sitting in the dirt.  ;)

Sorry Guy,
You are totally full of shit.
(etc, etc)

I think you're the one that needs to stop sniffing the diesel fumes.
Any modern diesel will require less periodic maintenance than a lister over an equivalent span of hours.
A simple look at oil-change hours proves it.
That is all.



rcavictim

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #95 on: September 21, 2006, 02:45:32 AM »
Fuddyduddy,

Stop being so much of a fuddyduddy.  You are acting as though Guy had personally insulted one of your family members.  Take a chill pill dude!  We all have to share the same oil tainted air here.  :D

I don`t know any automotive diesel engines where you have to lift the hood and oil the rockers and pushrods with an oil can each day before you can drive the car to work.  Automotive disesls don`t normally blow out intermediate timing sprockets in five hours since new, etc.

-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

Guy_Incognito

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #96 on: September 21, 2006, 03:10:47 AM »
Man, I seem to be good at pushing people's buttons, that's for sure.
Look, I'm all for heated debate, but once the comments get more personal and less factual, that's where I draw the line.

Ok, I'll introduce myself properly while we're at it (7 pages and 27 posts in  ;D)

I'm an Auto Electrician, living in a remote area in Australia. I specialise in heavy mobile mining equipment, and I mean heavy. Trucks that have 24 cylinder engines and a 400 ton payload - that's the kind of stuff I work on. I have a BSc in Physics, majoring in Optics - I did that while I was doing my apprenticeship, sort of to cover all the bases. Turns out that fixing stuff was more enjoyable than thinking about it. I still don't know why I decided to major in optics.

My experience with engines in general comes from owning and rebuilding several old cars. I won't go into brands, as you probably have no idea what I'm talking about, but suffice to say I have experienced the joy of British manufactured motor cars many times now. (Mainly early 60's Morris Minors and a Major.) After that kind of experience, pulling the head off a modern 4 cylinder engine is not anything that scares me, it's just an inconvenience.

My experience with diesels specifically comes from working with about 10 diesel fitters on shift on mining equipment for the last 15 years. This can be from one extreme, where I show them how to track down a timing sensor problem or a dud injector on a Detroit Series 60 to them showing me how to diagnose a loose flywheel or to replace a cylinder head on a Cat 3512. Due to the fact these days that any engine problem on a modern diesel could be mechanical or electrical, I need to know a lot about them in general.

I don't know that much about listers, that's why I'm here. But a lot of the principles involved with large high-speed diesels does come across to slow single-cylinder ones. Not a whole lot, but enough to make me ask a lot of questions on why some things are done in some particular way.

Anyway, back to the debate.

xyzer

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #97 on: September 21, 2006, 03:24:49 AM »
Guy....now I know what is wrong with you! You played with those damn british cars...early 60's Morris Minors and a Major...:)....My first car was a basket case 51 MGTD....I had more fun learning how they did things over there...Loved that car had tons o fun...! Now look at what I got into..at least for a yank I know what the hell a Whitworth tread is...Speaking of time invested for maitenance it is a good thing I didn't have to spend as much time getting my Cummins to run smooth or it would be an insurace claim! I think I'll go out to the shop and get a wiff of some "oil tainted air "....
Vidhata 6/1 portable
Power Solutions portable 6/1
Z482 KUBOTA

slowspeed1953

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #98 on: September 21, 2006, 03:34:02 AM »
Sorry Guy,
You are totally full of shit.

There are a lot of individuals  "out there" who have many hours more, even on the "early " Indian Listeroids, than your engine, whatever it is, will ever reach in your "modern" car.

In fact, you are not just full of shit, you are SO FULL of shit, that you do not even know most of the questions, let alone, the answers..

The possible exception to the rule is an LD28 Nissan, which you have probably never even heard of.   I'll even give you a clue, 7 main bearings in a 2.8 liter engine.

Quit sniffin' the crap you ar sniffin', and wake up.






Sorry Guy,
You are totally full of shit.

There are a lot of individuals  "out there" who have many hours more, even on the "early " Indian Listeroids, than your engine, whatever it is, will ever reach in your "modern" car.

In fact, you are not just full of shit, you are SO FULL of shit, that you do not even know most of the questions, let alone, the answers..

The possible exception to the rule is an LD28 Nissan, which you have probably never even heard of.   I'll even give you a clue, 7 main bearings in a 2.8 liter engine.

Quit sniffin' the crap you ar sniffin', and wake up.






Fuddy, Guy's right and your mean.

I know the l series gas engine only had five mains not sure about the diesel block but I do know they sure do make a neat z car repower. The early Nissan rd33t diesel is cooler makes more power and is still IDI, just a thought. Then again if your looking for even more power there is the Nissan td44 thing about all the Nissan diesels are they spin fast.

Peace&Love :D, Darren

fuddyduddy

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #99 on: September 21, 2006, 03:45:29 AM »
Fuddyduddy,

Stop being so much of a fuddyduddy.  You are acting as though Guy had personally insulted one of your family members.  Take a chill pill dude!  We all have to share the same oil tainted air here.  Cheesy

I don`t know any automotive diesel engines where you have to lift the hood and oil the rockers and pushrods with an oil can each day before you can drive the car to work.  Automotive disesls don`t normally blow out intermediate timing sprockets in five hours since new, etc.


Sorry for you VICTIM,
Since I have personally owned, or DO OWN,  at least six Nissan diesels, four GM diesels, a Volvo diesel, several VW diesels, a Cummins diesel, Buda diesels, Case diesels, several Caterpillar, John Deere, Kubota, International, Isuzu, Nordberg, Perkins, Gardner, and so many others I forget them all ,  AND EVEN a  Suzuki diesel automobile(s) and/or truck(s), tractor(s), along with many Vidhata, Ashwamegh,  JKson, Changfa, etc, etc, etc, diesel engines, will tell you this:

It is sheer folly to even presume for a moment that any land-based automobile or light truck will have a life expectancy even coming close to a slow-speed diesel engine such as the Liser(oid)s.

This forum  has individuals that make statements, repititiously,  that tend to make "newbies" who read them think that they are the truth. Frequently they are not. 

I am not sure you even know what an "intermediate timing sprocket"  is, let alone causes of failure, etc, etc, etc.   I DO KNOW that a (CS) Lister(oid) has no such mechanical item.

Personally,  I think of some diesel engines as being among my family members, and individuals who admonish me to "take a chill pill dude" are exactly the types of people I want very little or no involvement with.

Thank goodness, I enjoy lifting the hood on whichever vehicle I drive EVERY DAY to check the oil,  and look at other things, and  can also tell you this: I have NEVER had an engine fail on any automobile, pickup, truck, tractor, sawmill, etc, etc, that I have ever owned.  Yup, thanks, Bob and Jack and Quinn, etc, I HAVE taken one or two out of service that had an IMPENDING failure!

Oh, maybe that WILL happen someday,but it has not in the last sixty-odd years.  And, I would bet a lot of money that the kind of folks I associate with have had about the same experiences, also.
 

Guy_Incognito

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #100 on: September 21, 2006, 04:56:12 AM »
Fuddyduddy,

It is sheer folly to even presume for a moment that any land-based automobile or light truck will have a life expectancy even coming close to a slow-speed diesel engine such as the Liser(oid)s.

This forum  has individuals that make statements, repititiously,  that tend to make "newbies" who read them think that they are the truth. Frequently they are not. 


Personally,  I think of some diesel engines as being among my family members, and individuals who admonish me to "take a chill pill dude" are exactly the types of people I want very little or no involvement with.

Thank goodness, I enjoy lifting the hood on whichever vehicle I drive EVERY DAY to check the oil,  and look at other things, and  can also tell you this: I have NEVER had an engine fail on any automobile, pickup, truck, tractor, sawmill, etc, etc, that I have ever owned.  Yup, thanks, Bob and Jack and Quinn, etc, I HAVE taken one or two out of service that had an IMPENDING failure!

Oh, maybe that WILL happen someday,but it has not in the last sixty-odd years.  And, I would bet a lot of money that the kind of folks I associate with have had about the same experiences, also.
 

It's good to see you love your engines that much. No, seriously.

Anyway, what is the life expectancy of a good listeroid between rebuilds? I've heard whispers of 50,000 hours, but nothing solid. But I personally work on larger industrial diesels that have in excess of 25,000 hours on them in the worst engine conditions possible. The engine computers say 80% of the time is at or near high governed RPM and full load, they get occasional overrev, plenty of shock loading from solid transmission shifts, hot forced shutdowns from anything from oil leaks , turbo fires or coolant loss. And yet, the basic engine underneath all the accessories is still fine after 5 years of abuse. But they're really getting out of the area of 'light' vehicle or industrial engines....

Rtqii

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #101 on: September 21, 2006, 05:56:09 AM »
Guy....now I know what is wrong with you! You played with those damn british cars...early 60's Morris Minors and a Major...:)....My first car was a basket case 51 MGTD....I had more fun learning how they did things over there...Loved that car had tons o fun...! Now look at what I got into..at least for a yank I know what the hell a Whitworth tread is...Speaking of time invested for maitenance it is a good thing I didn't have to spend as much time getting my Cummins to run smooth or it would be an insurace claim! I think I'll go out to the shop and get a wiff of some "oil tainted air "....

My first car was a candy apple red MGTD 52. I saw my first major gasoline/vapor explosion during the rebuild/restore. Liquid fuel has 9 times the energy per pound than commercial dynamite.

I still have the car... It needs paint and a new top. Engine is cherry, it's about time I push the pedal.

 

rcavictim

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #102 on: September 21, 2006, 07:15:05 AM »
Fuddyduddy,

Stop being so much of a fuddyduddy.  You are acting as though Guy had personally insulted one of your family members.  Take a chill pill dude!  We all have to share the same oil tainted air here.  Cheesy

I don`t know any automotive diesel engines where you have to lift the hood and oil the rockers and pushrods with an oil can each day before you can drive the car to work.  Automotive disesls don`t normally blow out intermediate timing sprockets in five hours since new, etc.


Sorry for you VICTIM,

I am not sure you even know what an "intermediate timing sprocket"  is, let alone causes of failure, etc, etc, etc.   I DO KNOW that a (CS) Lister(oid) has no such mechanical item.

Personally,  I think of some diesel engines as being among my family members, and individuals who admonish me to "take a chill pill dude" are exactly the types of people I want very little or no involvement with.
 

Regarding the intermediary timing sprocket.  I had a brain fart.  I mean to type gear.  You know, the idler.  Years of powerful prescription pain killerz I require and there becomes less difference between a sprocket and a gear.  They both have teeth that mesh with something else and transfer power.  This idler gear has been breaking in some of the brand new indian listeroids and a solution being attempted is to replace them with a brass counterpart.

I am actually of the opinion that a properly blueprinted lister type 650 RPM CS with no sand issues certainly ought to be able to log well over 50,000 hours without major rebuilding, but that is not the engine that most folks on this forum have in their possession.  I own an original 12 HP@2000 RPM, Petter PJ-1 that has over 99,000 hours on it at 1800 RPM in a lighting plant and the crank journal which gets 40 PSI filtered oil looks like new.

So don`t take a chill pill.  I just found the colorful language a little too loud.  I can color the air with the best of `em, and I often do, but not on public forums.  I hope that my wish to see a little less swearing doesn`t prevent us from becoming friends.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

fuddyduddy

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #103 on: September 21, 2006, 08:53:20 AM »
OK, The idler gear issue and its fix, not  " a solution being attempted", has been widely reported on , and is shown at  http://utterpower.com/listeroid_timing_gears.htm, and is discussed in George's great CD as well. 

As far as your other question is concerned, the life expectancy of a well-built Listeroid in the USA is not known at this time. There are a "fair" number of engines with  between 6,000 and 10,000 hours  on them. That is not many hours, but my knowledge of them HERE only goes back eight years or so.

Best guess, a fair-to-good quality Listeroid engine with the dropped sump and external oil pump should operate for 20,000-50,000 hours with minimal wear, based on the limited tear-down data to this point. 

The only REAL hindrance to this could be the valve guides. IMHO, phosphor-bronze guides would be a true asset for longevity, and someone WILL offer them, at least as a "kit", fairly soon.

Again, meaningful data is limited. George has, IMHO, a very good bit of info in this regard. Whe asked about fast-moving Listeroid parts, his response is: "There are none" (!!!)

Is wear data valid if an engine has been operated on UVO, ULO, SVO, or other alternate fuels? Yes, I think so, so long as wet-stacking/carbon buildup has not been an issue. Dennis E. in Ohio probably has the longest run data that I know of, and it is on several twins that operate 24/7 on WVO. He filters it well,  chemically treats it (Diesel Kleen, Arctic Express antigel, and Diesel 9*1*1), and heats it prior to injection,  and has never any carbon buildup at all.







Guy_Incognito

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #104 on: September 22, 2006, 01:44:35 AM »
Well, the life of the listeroids seems to be pretty good so far then, as long as you set them up (sand,etc) properly first. I probably won't be putting high hours on mine as I guesstimate about 10-15 hours a week of operation on average. Might be a bit more in summer when the A/C's on, but it'll need to be run more often then anyway as it's monsoonal in that location, meaning all the solar array will see is clouds,clouds,clouds over summer.

Whipped up a quick drawing of the pulley layout if I get around to fitting an A/C compressor:


It's at http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?pos=-397 if that image thingo doesn't work.

Needs to have a fair sort of wrap around that compressor as it will draw 3-4HP when operating.
The idlers are going to be off a common car here - a holden commodore, which uses poly-v belts. Life of the OEM plastic idler in that usage is about 200,000k's, but good aftermarket steel idlers are available for about $50. Might be able to pick up the entire auto-spring tensioner assembly off that car, which would make it a lot easier.

Probably my only concern is belt flap on the bottom section, but it should be under tension continuously.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2006, 01:49:29 AM by Guy_Incognito »