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Author Topic: 6/1 and generator setup  (Read 65378 times)

rcavictim

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2006, 06:18:14 AM »
if you build a car with no shocks and a ridge fram no spring and put steel wheels and drive in over wash boards for 100000 miles what do you think will happen. ie seen plent of stationary engines mounted on vibration isolation in fact i dont think ive ever seen one that wasnt. but i guess you know more then all the mechanical engineers ive done work for.    anyway i have a listeroid running 24-7 and its pretty smooth and it hasnt destroyed itself yet. would like to hear about yours what is it again?
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Albany,

If you build that put in air cusioned seats in it and one of the big three North American automakers will probably pay you good money for the design.  They are in terrible trouble because they insist on building obsolete cars that get crappy fuel economy and have recently resorted to bringing back their popular muscle cars from 30 years ago (which also get crappy fuel economy) to try to win market share.  Idiots!   ;D
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 09:14:06 AM by rcavictim »
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Rtqii

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2006, 06:47:29 PM »
if you build a car with no shocks and a ridge fram no spring and put steel wheels and drive in over wash boards for 100000 miles...

You make the same mistake in your failed logic. You are equating a transportation application and engine to a stationary application and engine. The plain and simple fact is, they are different, engineered for different applications.

You rubber room guys keep insisting the square peg fits fine in the round hole. Sure, you can get it to fit if you hit it with a sledge enough times hard enough.... But don't tell me it's fine for the peg and causes no damage.

Quote
ie seen plent of stationary engines mounted on vibration isolation...

Bahhh... What I see is lots of noise from the peanut gallery and no facts, no links to facts, no photos showing these supposed stationary moving mounts (even the terminology you have to use to describe your nonsense is mutually exclusive).

When you see commerical/industrial engines that are mounted on flexible mounts, if you look... You will see a transportation engine employed in the application. You have never seen a stationary designed engine mounted on flexible mounts in any such application, especially an engine with BIG flywheels. Stationary engines are always mounted on a big block mount and grouted into place whenever they are installed in commerical/industrial applications.

I came off a run thru the Permian basin 2 weeks ago where I was poking around in the fields. I saw a lot of stationary diesel and nat. gas engines used for compressors... Guess how they were mounted?

Not one flexible mount of any type. Not one.  I looked at a lot of field engines that had been pulled out of service and were sitting in yards, and not one of them was designed for flexible mounts.





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The "Siemens-Hauszentrale" (home power plant) is primarily meant to supply electricity to country houses, farm houses and remote cottages. The plant's technical design allows simple operating and maintanance, and avoids damage by errors.







« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 07:34:12 PM by Rtqii »

Rtqii

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2006, 07:17:01 PM »
ie seen plent of stationary engines mounted on vibration isolation in fact i dont think ive ever seen one that wasnt.














The plain and simple fact is that people _want_ to install stationary engines improperly on flexible mounting systems... But this is an act of human will based on desire, not on sound engineering practices or Newtonian physics. In order to justify their desire and actions of will (not logic), they must rationalize to extreme degrees in order to support their lack of factual basis for their decisions and the positions they have taken based purely on their desires and the resulting actions of will.

Truly, what a person does with their engine on their property is their business. My problem only starts when they go public and post to others that their way is the right way, or the best way, and that anybody and everybody can & really should do it their way... That's just plain wrong, like flex mounting a stationary engine is just plain wrong. What _you_ do wrong on your own is what you do. Do it here in front of me, I have words to say about it... And pictures to document the facts, engineering specifications to document the facts, I can post construction techniques and material specifications that document the facts... From legitimate engineering sources. And in fact I have done so a number of times.

This clearly must be an instance where the human desire and will in some people are completely at odds with the facts.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 08:23:38 PM by Rtqii »

Guy_Incognito

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2006, 09:43:15 PM »
Such anger, Rtqii.

Quote
Truly, what a person does with their engine on their property is their business. My problem only starts when they go public and post to others that their way is the right way, or the best way, and that anybody and everybody can & really should do it their way... That's just plain wrong, like flex mounting a stationary engine is just plain wrong.

Pot, kettle, black?

And nowhere in my ramblings have I said that this resilient mount is "the right way, or the best way, and that anybody and everybody can & really should do it their way... " I merely thought that it would be a good idea, and it would reduce some of the ground-pounding effects that you can get with a base that might not be up to par.

Thanks for your input anyway. Any further input or opinion about resilient mounts will be cheerfully ignored though.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 09:47:23 PM by Guy_Incognito »

xyzer

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2006, 09:58:17 PM »
Aww what do these guys know!


http://www.acemount.com/MainPages/selection_charts.htm#CATGenSet


At 36,000 lbs .... one would need a few more sacks of cement!

 

 



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rcavictim

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2006, 10:26:15 PM »
Aww what do these guys know!


http://www.acemount.com/MainPages/selection_charts.htm#CATGenSet


At 36,000 lbs .... one would need a few more sacks of cement!

 

 





Rtqii will likely argue that Caterpillar engines are transportation engines.  You don`t need to move fast to be transportation. In this case half-fast is good enough.  ;D
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xyzer

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2006, 10:43:27 PM »
Aww what do these guys know!


http://www.acemount.com/MainPages/selection_charts.htm#CATGenSet


At 36,000 lbs .... one would need a few more sacks of cement!

 

 





Rtqii will likely argue that Caterpillar engines are transportation engines.  You don`t need to move fast to be transportation. In this case half-fast is good enough.  ;D

I know.....I have a 1905 Cadilac 1 cylinder the engine looks like a horizontal lister with an open rod....and shakes worse absolutly no attempt to balance it.....hmmm transportation engine I guess...all they knew about balance in those days was to weigh gold! It was interesting looking for information on balance....they started to have problems with the railroad as the got bigger. The drivers would pound the spike loose...no balance! Obviously they fixed that.....no they didn't mount them on cement!
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Rtqii

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2006, 12:49:37 AM »
Such anger, Rtqii.

Pshaw pa... If I was angry, I would let you know.

You don't know the difference between right and wrong engineering mounts... Now you are an expert on anger too???

LMAO  :D ;D

Rtqii

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2006, 01:01:09 AM »
Quote
Rtqii will likely argue that Caterpillar engines are transportation engines.  You don`t need to move fast to be transportation. In this case half-fast is good enough.  ;D

Dead on correct... Caterpillar engines are all designed for transportation applications. Even a crawler or a dozer is a transportation machine. The engine mount points are not designed or engineered for stationary mounting, the flywheels are tiny in relation to the total mass of the moving parts. The entire Caterpillar ethos is slow moving power delivery.

Again... People are using excuses... The engine is big, and somebody installed it in a stationary application, therefore it is a stationary engine... That is fallacious logic.

There are some engine applications that make up a grey area... But Lister stationary engines are not even close to the grey. The engines I am referring to are large marine and locomotive engines. Technically these engines may be classed as transportation engines, however in practice they are designed for, and actually employ stationary type mounting; no flexible mountings are used in these applications. However, the frames they are firmly bolted to are moving about, so the engines are designed without much flywheel mass.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2006, 01:40:31 AM by Rtqii »

albany dbd

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2006, 01:29:36 AM »
well you dug up alot of pics very old tech. i guess to your way of thinking the p51 is better then the f16. i asked what if any listeroid your running and how much. i put mine on rubber to keep the power stroke from shaking the house. hense i can run 24-7 cogening elc. heat. i think you should remember some of us working in the power indusries and have first hand knowledge. and look isaid all that with out insulting you.   
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hotater

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #40 on: September 19, 2006, 01:33:25 AM »
Interesting thread!

So,  are marine engines dependant on whether the operator of the engine can see outside??  If he can't it's stationary and if he can it's mobile?  Hmm    ;D  ;D

In all seriousness-  I've found a great Listeroid seismometer.  It's  a coil bed spring thats wide at the bottom and comes to a one inch peak with four coils in it.  I can 'see' the  Lister thump in every building on the property but there is a definite 'ring' of increased motion about 80 feet from the Lister.  It must be a 'node'.   The new one yard plus concrete engine mount, less than ten feet from the Lister, shows very little motion....a third of what the floor does next to it.
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albany dbd

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2006, 01:39:11 AM »
so are you saying you still get a thump over the whole property even though you mounted the engine to the block.
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t19

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2006, 01:56:29 AM »
well you dug up alot of pics very old tech. i guess to your way of thinking the p51 is better then the f16. i asked what if any listeroid your running and how much. i put mine on rubber to keep the power stroke from shaking the house. hense i can run 24-7 cogening elc. heat. i think you should remember some of us working in the power indusries and have first hand knowledge. and look isaid all that with out insulting you.   
Actually it depends on the application.... P51 would be better at gnd attack and because it is slow and low heat exhaust the F16 would have problems shooting it out of the sky, more so as it slows down below the stall speed of the F16.  Would be a neat little dog fight.  Neither would have made a great stationary engine... but great transportation engines :p
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Guy_Incognito

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2006, 02:03:50 AM »
Such anger, Rtqii.

Pshaw pa... If I was angry, I would let you know.
You don't know the difference between right and wrong engineering mounts... Now you are an expert on anger too???
LMAO  :D ;D

I was going to cheerfully ignore this post, really I was.

Anyway, I chose anger as a polite word for it. Equal contenders were arrogant, pig-headed and inflexible - say, the last one's just like your preference in mounts!

I note that all your pics are of engines that are either old, or haven't changed since their design a century ago.

Now, listen very carefully:

Yes. A concrete block is A solution to the problem. I'm not dissing your choice in engine mounts. I can tell by your posts that that you think the concrete block is the right way, the best way, and that anybody and everybody can & really should do it that way.
(wait, is there an echo in here?)

But I say :

An extra 60 years of suspension design beyond what was current then and there says that a resilient mount should be a solution as well. For all I know, my mount might wind up to be a mix of both, with a smaller-than-concrete-block inertial mass suspended. But I intend to find out.

And a question for everyone in the audience:

With your concrete bases, how well does it isolate the pulses? Obviously, it will reduce the movement of your engine and it's immediate surroundings. But, can you still feel it through the ground next to the block? Does it still transmit low frequency thumps? I mean, instead of a thousand pounds of lister bouncing 1 inch, you've got 5 thousand pounds of lister and concrete closely coupled to (say) 10 thousand pounds of soil all bouncing 1/15 inch instead. All that energy still has to go somewhere. If it's near to a structure, can you still feel any resonance in it? What about 100 yards away? Any nodes? Does it piss off your neighbour a 1/2 mile away to have his glassware tinkling in the kitchen cabinet when you fire up your engine?

These are not rhetorical questions - let me know. The reason I ask is that a properly setup resilient mount will - yes , will - reduce the coupling between engine and ground by 97% straight up. Place that on your average garage slab - another chunk'o'mass - and the result should be very little vibration nearby. So ignoring things like peaks/nodes in the ground, that's at least a difference of feel-it-at-100ft vs feel-it-at-3ft. How would it compare to a block? Real-world, felt-it-through-the-soles-of-my-shoes results only,please.




Rtqii

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Re: 6/1 and generator setup
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2006, 02:04:02 AM »
Quote
i asked what if any listeroid your running and how much.

This is a good question and I want to expound on it. I love engines, have since I was a kid.

I have never in my life had the opportunity to really _work_ a classic type stationary flywheel engine. There are a number of reasons for this, not one of them related to lack of desire. That has not stopped me from purchasing, working on them, running them (not under real load, or in a real working application)... You see these type engines at shows, guys have them skid mounted and set up on trailers to make them transportable.... But that is not a working engine, it's a show engine.

Now... Finally... For the first time in my life I have real reasons to work a classic design flywheel engine. Reasons important enough to justify the time, expense, and effort in doing the job right... The first time.

I looked at my inventory of engines, and I sold them for cash. They were show engines, not large enough to generate sufficent power, and parts, parts, parts... You should not take a collector engine and put it to work as a prime power source if you cannot make or obtain replacement parts at a reasonable cost.

I researched... I like the Lister design, I have seen orginals running. I like the Witte design, I have seen them running... Other brands of flywheel oilfield engines interest me a great deal, I almost bought a Witte configured as a genset... But from a cost and parts availablity standpoint, the Lister clones from India are hands down winners for a real working engine of this class and type.

Next up, after the decison to purchase was made... The engineering requirements to properly _work_ the engine on-site were researched. Now there are two schools of thought about this (as if you don't know having read down this far)... But the people who advocate and employ flexible mounting strategies for these type stationary engines are not supported historically, they are not supported in the factory engineering specs (these are people who buy things and throw away the operators manual apparently), they are not supported by modern engineering guidelines where stationary reciprocating equipment mounts are specified.

The right way to do this job is exceedling clear. I will have a concrete truck come on site and pour my equipment blocks after I have excavated out to specs and placed in the rebar, isolation padding, and formed everything up. It's that simple, even if it is a lot of work and it does mean an additional expense. This is a permanent installation, and I am going to work my engine _hard_

There is nothing at all new, or controversial, about stationary engine technology... It has been done, and done, and done for years and years and years. You can pick up any good engineering manual or search on-line to get exact equipment block specifications: block size, depth in the ground, footprint dimensions, material specs; everything is out there in print from accurate, well researched, and historically proven engineers.

Then... You have the other school.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2006, 02:49:07 AM by Rtqii »