Powerline 10/1 inspection

[snail]

See our Ruston 1ZHR pages for the new casting flaws in our replacement flywheel, that was a "no-rush but get it nice job".

I don't want to drag this too far off topic but 3 of the 4 Lister (Dursley) Flywheels I've blasted have porosity under the "icing"

Cheers,

Brian

[Doug]

Perhaps they had some issues then too.

However this is 2006, although I was never a foundry worker I spent enough time pacing the melt deck of a local foundry to know what is possible.

From two entirely different end oif the spectrum I know what a quality Candian made brake rotor with a high copper content looks like in the rough and I know what a dirt cheap Chinese clone from a local parts suplier is like.

Both of these show the limmits of what can be done on the cheap and at a premium and too me there is no reason to expect an Indian foundry can at least produce what a Chinese one can.

These casting are better than what we have seen yet from India. Case in point for those who have seen Quin's PS kit stripped of paint the voids and surface rust are obvious and clearly sign of a problem at JKson.

My PEC Powerline engine also has surface rust on some parts that was painted over. There realy is no excuse for this....

I think the first thing we need to ask builders is to stop with the plaster treatment and keep the rust to a minimum. Its not a huge expense to clean parts with a steam genny and oil them when dry if there not to be used right away. Obvious voids and roughness aren't a turn off if they are just cosmetic and if they must use some icing let it be automotive spot putty and not plaster. The acidity of damp gypsum under paint just causes paint bond problems.

Doug

[buickanddeere]

 I wonder what share of the market goes to the west we we expect quality. Perhapes 99.999% of the engines are shipped in what ever shape to people who are glad to get anything that goes "Putt" for a year or two at the most. 

[Doug]

The two fellows I mentioned in Malaysia like the Petter type engines because they are dirt cheap and parts are cheaper. But you get what you pay for and a junk engine is junk you have to know what to ask for right down to asking for brand name parts. Since we don't know who makes the parts we are already at a disadvantage.

Doug 

[Doug]

Mostly talking to my self here, I know because no one imports Petters anymore and interest is in decline.

But here are new photo's of the roid ...

Doug

http://www.putfile.com/dougwp/images/31565

[fattywagonman]

Hey Doug,
you are not alone...I've been watching with interest... you're right the cat yellow looks better.. and you QC guy looks like he's a tough inspector.. since my goal is to produce small CHP generators  I like the Petter for small power  more than the listeroid... I mean why not have an engine that is half the size and the same power...  I'm baffled why there isn't more interest in them..  the lister is only 650 RPM but since engine are just pumps a petter half the displacement  would make the same power @ 1200.. I don't see why the petter wouldn't last for over 10K hours and possibly much longer... I have about 15 petters.. 4 are minis... I'm also converting some to spark ignition for operation on LPG and NG... I think they are all fine little engines as long as they are run at low RPM... I like 1200 max on the petters and 1700 max on the minis... I really like the TRB but I see you prefer the bushings... If you keep posting I'll be following the progress...

[RJ]

Doug I am reading with intrest. Thanks for taking the time to post your information. I too am baffled why there is so little intrest in these engines. Did you have any problems getting your engine directly from Patal? (customs and such) I guess I'm wondering why you didn't purchase it from an importer in the states? I'm currently looking for a 25/2 and am having trouble sourcing one.

Please keep us all updated to your progress.

-RJ

[Doug]

I had no real problems with the India end of things...
The engine was delayed in production because of a heat wave, lack of parts for an extra 4 weeks.

Getting from the boat to my home however was a freak show....

New pictures to be posted of the cleaned and painted cylinder block to be posted shortly ( just loading them now.. )

fattywagonman.

I'm going to have to pick your brain off list, sounds like you know quite a bit about these engines and I'd like some of your thoughts about modifications. Especiualy in light of what your doing with the NG conversion...

Doug

[Doug]

I've stripped all the paint off the gear case cover now. I'm using a different chemical stripper and I flip flop back and forth between a steel wire wheel and a rubber fingered scrubber on a cordless drill to remove the paint. As you can see in this picture all the metal under that blue hammer tone and hunter green is now gone and what is exposed is something I've never seen in a "Roid" casting, a truely clean well cast part.

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3987057

This raises more questions....

Generaly all the parts I have stripped have been good by "Roid" standards to verry good. The exceptions as far as finnish are concerned seem to be the common parts are the worse and special parts are the best.
A standard Petter doesn't have this cover ( unless its a twin or was ordered with the gear oil pump like this unit ). The head and block were good but things like the oil filter cover were far more crude.

The question that needs to be asked.
Was FuddyDuddy right when he said " India sends us the scrap thats been sitting in the corner " ?
Is this a one off fluke that casting came off with a nice surface finnish?
Is this a standard we can hold out and say " I want castings that start out this good, or don't build me an engne at all " ?

Doug

Any thoughts Group?
Do any of you have any Listeroid or Petteroid casting pictures stripped clean we can yard stick against each other. Jack's Fooking pictures showed some gruesome castings I'd like to assume were the worst you might generaly see. What can you guys dig up to show the best Listeroid castings.

Maybe I expect too much....
I was just looking over these castings again and the thought struck me. How well could I make a mold and pack it by hand then judge the temperature of the iron by eye. This may infact be how this is done in Rajkot. Its one things to stand on the bridge of crane looking downon a bull ladle feeding an automated line with parts dropping out the end like sausages and a different matter all together to do it all by hand, on the cheap. How do they measure the carbon content? What are they using as scrap? What kind of sand and binders? How often do they reuse the sand.
So many variables temperature, moister content, metalurgy, casting process, skill, attitude, time, fuel ect ect ect.

 
 

[fattywagonman]

Hi Doug,
some suppliers use pressed steel timing cover others use a casting... doesn't matter if they have gear pump or piston ... The first engines I bought were from Gandhar and they used a cast timing cover... the next were from Basant and they use a steel cover... overall I'm happier with the Gandhar engines but the guy is not very responsive when you have questions or issues... From what I understand there are several casting suppliers.. most in Rajkot... so if you want to make an engine you buy a bunch of castings and take to your shop and machine them up.... maybe you can even but pre machined parts.... buy pistons, injectors, pumps, and all the gingerbread.. stick it together and you are an engine manufacturer... I originally got interested in the mini petters after seeing this site http://www.marathonengine.com/
BTW I'm not very good at checking PM's so if you want to get it touch about spark ignition info drop me a line at prontopower@gmail-dot-com   
John

[Mr X]

Fattywaggonman Im over come with the desire to expand my indian family and would like to have a Petter. Im wondering, I have a 8 k gen and would like to produce 6 k would a 10 hp running at your suggested 1200 rpm produce enough power to produce 6 k .

[Doug]

Turns out the Indian oil filter in my Petter isn't available in Canada, or 3 different supliers are simply not able to match it.

Plan B replace the cast cover with a steel plate because the starter limmits access to the internal fliter anyhow and replace the BPT oil line from the rear main bearing return line with a BPT to JCI fitting and run that to a remote filter and runthe return to a fitting in the plate access cover.

I'd like to try and convert to full flow filtration but the oil galleries are cast in the crank case and I haven't had time to try and think this threw. Fattywagonman do you have any thoughts?

Doug

[fattywagonman]

Doug,
I think a by pass filter like this http://www.wefilterit.com/ and a magnet in the crankcase is plenty of protection...

Mr.X,
I would think you could make 6kW at 1200 RPM with a petter...

[Doug]

Thank you for the advice Fattywagonman ( got a first name this is a pain to type ) on the Franz I was considering that BTW. Did you get a bypass filter option on any of yours?
Any luck sourcing hard and flex lines for fuel and oil ?

Doug

[Doug]

Did a little shopping around today with my son.

On the list were lines and parts to convert some of my oil and fuel lines to JCI where practical.

Telstar hydraulics, Maslack industrial suply, "Cambodian tyre", Acklands, Henniger's Diesel....

Everyone's reply to they lines was the same " What the hell is this ? " and " Nothing we have is compatable to this, and it doesn't apear to be BSP, Whitworth, metric ect ". So for those of you who follow in our Petteroid foot steps order extra lines and fitings or ask the works to use JCI from the start because what ever they have in India as standard is not even on the radar up in Canada at least...