Listeroid 10/1 Question

[Listerational]

Hello,

I replaced the large radiator on my Listeroid 10/1 with a much smaller radiator.

The old radiator was passive operational only where the hot antifreeze exits the engine from the top port and enters the radiator thru the bottom then exits the radiator from the top and enters the engine thru the bottom port.

The much smaller new radiator has a circulator installed inline to help cool the antifreeze. That said should I still enter the radiator thru the bottom and exit from the top or vice versa?

Thank you for the help.

[veggie]

For forced circulation systems the general arrangement is to pipe water from the cylinder head to the upper port on the radiator. As the water cools in the radiator, the natural flow is downwards and out the bottom, then onward to the lower (cooler) connection on the engine water jacket. (same as an automobile).
I installed my circulation pump in the cooler (lower) water line running from the radiator back to the engine. This way the pump operates in the lower end of it's allowed temperature range.

veggie

[38ac]

I don know how it worked the way you said it was plumbed unless it got hot enough to boil and the air rising and taking water with it?? Thermosyphon works because heated water wants to rise and when cooled it wants to fall. Thus hooking up the hoses that way cannot work correctly. The top engine hose goes to the top of the radiator. The bottom radiator hose returns to the bottom of the block. Both hoses should run up hill from the engine to the radiator. The top hose must be submurged in coolant at all times. There are plenty of diagrams of how to do this including in the manuals.

[Listerational]

Would you happen to know where I might be able to find a manual?

Thank you for the great advice. I will fix tomorrow and maybe start it up.

Best regards.

[38ac]

I don't know what you need from a manual but the best use for the India manuals  is to get the fire going to burn the crate, LOL. Seriously there is little information in them and usually what is in them is wrong, or wrong for the particular engine.

[cujet]

Always draw coolant from the bottom of the radiator. If only for practical reasons. A low coolant level will still have liquid at the bottom and some engines have survived with nearly no water, as long as the pump is still working.

[Listerational]

I don know how it worked the way you said it was plumbed unless it got hot enough to boil and the air rising and taking water with it?? Thermosyphon works because heated water wants to rise and when cooled it wants to fall. Thus hooking up the hoses that way cannot work correctly. The top engine hose goes to the top of the radiator. The bottom radiator hose returns to the bottom of the block. Both hoses should run up hill from the engine to the radiator. The top hose must be submurged in coolant at all times. There are plenty of diagrams of how to do this including in the manuals.

Would you mind recommending the best way to submerge the top hose in coolant?  I corrected the hose configuration and am still getting hot coolant 200-degrees at the outlet (bottom of the radiator).

Thank you

[Hugh Conway]

Listerational:
Perhaps the new rad is too small. Is it a cross-flow or down-flow radiator. I think a down-flow type is necessary for a thermosyphon system.
Is there a thermostat in the system? Stuck?
I have no experience with using an automotive radiator. My two 6/1s were cooled via thermosyphon either with a tank  or an old style residential cast iron radiator. The cast iron was best by far. I was not able to source another, hence the tank on the start-o-matic engine.
If using a  radiator, an expansion tank mounted higher than  the top rad connection will keep the top hose submerged. If that top hose is not submerged, you won't have proper thermosyphon operation.
Cheers
Hugh

[Hugh Conway]

Forgot to add: use a non-pressurized system, esp if your engine is sleeved with O rings.
Cheers
Hugh

[Listerational]

Listerational:
Perhaps the new rad is too small. Is it a cross-flow or down-flow radiator. I think a down-flow type is necessary for a thermosyphon system.
Is there a thermostat in the system? Stuck?
I have no experience with using an automotive radiator. My two 6/1s were cooled via thermosyphon either with a tank  or an old style residential cast iron radiator. The cast iron was best by far. I was not able to source another, hence the tank on the start-o-matic engine.
If using a  radiator, an expansion tank mounted higher than  the top rad connection will keep the top hose submerged. If that top hose is not submerged, you won't have proper thermosyphon operation.
Cheers
Hugh

Thank you for the help Hugh.

I was reading an earlier thread about thermosiphon systems. It looks like there are a million ways to set one up.

https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=7955.0

Are there general rules of thumb to follow when designing a thermosiphon system? Are there any manuals that I can purchase?


About my radiator, I checked the radiator cap and it says "Pressurized System".

Wondering, how can one tell whether or not a radiator is pressurized. I still have the old radiator that I used before replacing with this new one but the cap doesn't say whether or not it's pressurized. The cap does have a spring in it.

Thanks again,

[Hugh Conway]

Listerational:
Setting up the 6/1 8/1 or 10/1 cooling system is pretty easy, though a few simple things  should be followed:
Use a vertical flow radiator with a large header tank. The header/expansion tank can be Teed in if the one on the rad is too small.
The idea is to always have the top hose submerged. If the top hose is not completely submerged, you lose the thermosiphon effect.
The bottom water cooling fitting on the engine should be lower than the bottom radiator inlet. About 3" is sufficient.
The top water fitting on the engine should also be lower than the top radiator fitting.
A thermosiphon will work in either a pressurized or non pressurized system, but a listeroid will not be happy pressurized....Head gasket may leak and the cylinder sleeve o rings are not designed for pressure. If your rad cap is a pressure type, then you can just not close it completely. That may not work unless you have some expansion room in the top of the radiator. Otherwise, close the cap and use an expansion tank teed into the upper hose and mounted above the radiator. I used an old 1 gallon metal steel gas can with a fitting at the bottom teed into my upper hose just before the radiator. Filled the system to about 1" or 2" of coolant in the expansion tank. It's worked fine for years.

Both bottom and top hoses should trend up from the engine. No downturns or high spots
Use 1" ID hose suitable for hot water or steam
No need for a thermostat, the temperature difference between the bottom and top regulates flow

Here's a youtube showing  a rough, but basically correct installation. I really doubt that the cooling fan is necessary with a radiator of that size,  The rad the guy uses does have a large header tank, so no need for an additional expansion tank. His rad could be mounted a couple of inches higher, but it's fittings are above those on the engine, so it will work fine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBS2KjxS3lk

PM me, i can send you a pdf from an old Dursley manual that has some cooling system information.

Cheers
Hugh

[Listerational]

Thank you for the help Hugh. I really appreciate it.

The original radiator is a big vertical flow with a pressure cap on it and a hose connected to it at the cap neck for a 1 - quart expansion tank. Someone removed the old fittings (intake and output pipes) and soldered new fittings in place. The bottom fitting's solder broke loose. I showed it to a friend of mine and he didn't think soldering a fitting to a radiator was a good idea.

I was wondering if you would recommend soldering the fitting back onto the radiator?

Also, can I replace the cap with a non-pressure type?

Or can I just use the pressure cap since it has an expansion tank?

Thanks again for the help with this. I would definitely be lost.

 

[dax021]

I would take that radiator to a professional rad repair shop. I reckon it could easily be repaired, probably by brazing

[Listerational]

I would take that radiator to a professional rad repair shop. I reckon it could easily be repaired, probably by brazing

Awesome.... I will look one up today. Thanks.....

[Listerational]

I would take that radiator to a professional rad repair shop. I reckon it could easily be repaired, probably by brazing

Awesome.... I will look one up today. Thanks.....

Thank you for the suggestion....

I took the radiator to a shop and got a quote of $500 for the repairs.

Is there perhaps a more affordable way to cool the engine? Is there a tank that can be easily modified for 1" or greater hose fittings?

Thanks again for helping me through this.