New to the Forum with a CS 12-2 in Portugal

[Portugal lister]

Morning to all,

Thanks VP,
Yes the keys look ok, only the head has a little damage. I was careful not to damage them further on removal.

I have a few more days of work on the farm then i will start to work on the Lister.

All parts arrived quickly and in good order.

Soon the fun begins

All the best.

[Portugal lister]

A little update ...

First head, cylinder and piston/rod removed is the non governor end.

Water jacket half full of sludge but rust doesn't look as bad as i thought it would be. although a few water ways in the head had some chunks in them.

This cylinder has an original copper Lister head gasket, looks like it has been blowing at some point but i have not noticed anything in the time i have being using the engine.

Also i see some light soot on the exhaust valve, is that a sign of running a little lean?

Can anyone give an opinion on the piston top, shows a valve mark but corresponding valve looks undamaged , but why the mark on the piston top?

I can also see a mark on the piston that looks like the injection inlet "mouth"...... are these marks normal to see?


All piston rings are nice and clean and free moving. will measure the rings once all parts fully cleaned.

The cylinder has no top ridge and no scratches or marks in the bore, is the ghosting ok or a sign the liner is wearing badly ?

Small end has no feel-able play and a nice smooth action side to side.

A full clean up of parts tomorrow but just wanted to post some initial pics.
I will take some better photos tomorrow also.

[Portugal lister]

So now the Governor end.

All looks about the same as the other side BUT

I can see two valve marks on this piston, they dont seem to be contact marks, more like a build up of carbon in the shape of the valves, this side shows no sign of the injector mouth.

This side has a different style of head gasket.

I was expecting to see a replacement gasket under the non governor end as that is the side with the 0.040under big end bearing, seems strange to have two different types of gasket unless they only worked on one side in the past.

Sorry the pictures are not great, The pump house has poor lighting.
I will be taking important parts to my workshop for cleaning and measuring etc.

If anyone has any comments i would really appreciate any input.

All the best for now

[Portugal lister]

Has nobody got any advice or input on my last posts and questions?

Im a mechanic but on car engines, mainly since the 70's and any earlier engines would be sent off to specialist rebuilders, i want to overhaul this engine as best i can so i though joining a forum of people interested in these engines would be a good place to share my overhaul and learn more about these engines from some of you more experienced in seeing the insides of the engines.

I just dont have the experience in spotting defects or flaws in them, and would be nice if anyone could give some advice to me on the signs shown in my photos.

The carbon build up on piston top under valves?

The blown head gasket, could it be due to bad tightening of head nuts or maybe the last time it was taken apart they re=used the head gasket ?...... i am hoping by running the head over some sand paper will level out any low spots as the gasket only shows signs of blowing on the upper face against the head, the block side seems to have sealed well.

As i say i had not noticed and blowing so i wonder with the non pressurized cooling system if it could have been leaking into the water channels, going un=noticed?

Is it worth me asking another question?
What is a good way to clean out the rusted water ways ?  i was thinking to soak cylinders and heads in some Sodium Carbonate but would this damage the coating on the cylinder bore ?

Cheers

[PeteDV]

This forum is a bit like that; it feels like you're just talking to yourself.

I am only just beginning my Lister journey, otherwise I'd totally chip in some info.

Have you tried some Facebook groups? FB seems to have pretty much killed forums such as this one.

[Portugal lister]

Its a shame as there are clearly some knowledgeable people on here about these amazing engines.
If we dont share the knowledge then it will start to get lost and then these engines will start dying out over the coming decades and to me that is a real shame, some of the greatest years in engineering history will be lost.

I could buy a modern engine to run my water pump but i could not bring myself to do that, i feel like i should keep it going for the above reasons and to maintain the history of our farm.

Sadly i dont really use Facebook, i dont like it for many reasons but i might have to go look, thanks for the tip PeteDV !

Cheers

This forum is a bit like that; it feels like you're just talking to yourself.

I am only just beginning my Lister journey, otherwise I'd totally chip in some info.

Have you tried some Facebook groups? FB seems to have pretty much killed forums such as this one.

[sirpedrosa]

Alex, Gentles

Alex, please dont wanna be "GLORT" a person kicked out of the forum, for arsing forum members. And PeteDV is not helping!

Just clean up all as good as you can. You are in the right way, but dont be anxious.

We still have some gurus here - but some of them pass away with covid, and others are to old to type or see tiny letters on display - so go easy.

DONT PUT SODIUM ON LISTARD! forget sodium. clean jackets with jetwash, and after clean bores and put wd40 till being mounted.

For me so far so good. clearances and torque will be paramount.

Just my 5 cents for today.

Cheers
VP

[AdeV]

Its a shame as there are clearly some knowledgeable people on here about these amazing engines.
If we dont share the knowledge then it will start to get lost and then these engines will start dying out over the coming decades and to me that is a real shame, some of the greatest years in engineering history will be lost.

This forum is a bit like that; it feels like you're just talking to yourself.

I am only just beginning my Lister journey, otherwise I'd totally chip in some info.

Have you tried some Facebook groups? FB seems to have pretty much killed forums such as this one.

This forum used to be more active; but, sadly, about 18 years ago it went through a really rough patch with its host, which resulted in days, then weeks, then months of downtime. Many of the "old guard" lost interest and stopped posting. It took 12 years to get back to any decent level of posting, then covid happened and it all went south again.

In the USA (always the main focus & membership of this forum, despite it being named after a quintessentially British engine company) the EPA basically killed off the supply of "Listeroids" and Changfas and Redstones (Blackstone copies), which I think has taken a lot of steam out of the "off-grid living" and combined heat/power that attracted people to the Lister engines in the first place.

So yeah, sadly, as a resource, this place is not what it used to be. But there's still a great wealth and depth of knowledge... it just might not surface as often as you'd hope.


Also, those 2-cyl CS engines are like rocking horse sh*t - as in, rare as. So knowledge of those is impressively thin on the ground; I believe there are one or two contributors here with experience of them, but they are in different timezones to the UK/Portugal, so you may have to wait a bit for a reply. Also, like me, they may be mad busy elsewhere... so only get chance to check in periodically.

@VP - no plans to kick people out. We've had thankfully few properly disruptive members, most of them went away of their own accord, some did indeed need to be gently kicked up the arse and be told not to ever darken our doors again...

[Portugal lister]

Thanks for the reply AdeV, and VP.

AdeV, thanks for sticking with the forum, i for one am grateful!

I wasn't trying to darken any doors, rather the opposite .
I understand the older Listers are are getting rarer by the day and with less people, with real understanding and experience in them, very sadly not around to share that knowledge any more.

So thanks for taking time out of your day to explain a little more on how things are here, the information and comradery was part of me joining, in the hope that my "overhaul" might help someone along the way with there engine.

I think my hope of answers has come from not finding any "data" online about tolerances, torques etc.

After stripping my 12/2 down and now having, today, stripped and cleaned the fuel pumps and rocker arm assembly i can see i have some issues here... Photos tomorrow.

So, for me i cant find "data" on - valve guide wear, valve 'stand down',  rough torque specs for cyl/head bolts etc. I cant find a "spec sheet" of the most basic type anywhere apart from finding some rough "data" found reading old posts...

So i wondered if i could put together something to put in the WOK, if i can get some help to find those golden numbers, ball park figures in old posts here... I mean how did the guys do it if they didnt have some spec to go off ?

I have read, back in the day using certain spanners on certain nuts and a strong arm was often enough to "torque" nuts etc but i dont have those spanners and worry to not torque them enough or over torque them.

You can't just put a head on an engine and crank it over and expect a good service life from it.... mine is a working machine so i want to give the engine its best chance.

One of my head gaskets has had some blowing, not only was the head looking like it was re-surfaced with a brick the head nuts felt like they had large torque differences.
It's a low RPM stationary engine, i get that, and torque values back then weren't what we see them as today but finding a "ball park" to aim for would be great to keep these crude machines lasting longer.... especially for me as our's is used regularly.

My engine has clearly done some hours from what i have seen so far, and knowing some data could help me understand some of what this engine has been through.

I moved from England 11 years ago, to our now home in Portugal and was lucky to find a special place, Portugal in years past was an extremely hard place to live, under Fascist regime, people of this region barely able to feed themselves.
I am lucky enough to know the daughter of the old owner and a lot of the people that worked here. Many of these people are my friends today.
I have a huge respect for these people and how life was then in Portugal.... AND in England too in years past.

The Industrial Revolution bringing about such creations as the Lister and then, how it was shipped here and sold by one of Portugal's biggest suppliers of "agricultural" equipment directly to the old owner where it has fed this 14 Hectare farm with water for almost 60 years.

It means a lot to me to keep this engine working, where it was installed to work, all those years ago.

Not wanting to be a "GLORT" i will post some photos later today of my work so far.

All the best.

[AdeV]

So i wondered if i could put together something to put in the WOK, if i can get some help to find those golden numbers, ball park figures in old posts here... I mean how did the guys do it if they didnt have some spec to go off ?

That would be brilliant! Happy to add your experiences to the WoK!

A kind soul on this forum, who's name temporarily escapes me, sent me a copy of the 6/1 manual... which I've been meaning to scan and upload for ages... I *will* get around to it one day, promise! That might have useful info like head bolt torque settings. I assume they're the same on the 6/1 vs 12/2, you just have to do twice as many for the bigger engine!

[broncodriver99]

I have attached a couple of files that may help. One is the basic Lister manual which contains a lot of helpful info. The second is the wear limits data from the shop manual which I used to have scanned in somewhere but can no longer find so I just scanned in the relevant pages.

Been meaning to respond to this thread for ages but kept getting side tracked. I used to follow your youtube channel. I came across it searching for lister videos and came across the series where you guys cleaned up the engine shed and got it running. I enjoyed watching you guys get the place cleaned up and liveable as well as getting the water system operational. I hope the goats are doing well!

Ade, please feel free to save these or post them somewhere conspicuous for future reference.

Gotta finish reading the rest of this thread. Hope the info helps.

[PeteDV]

I have attached a couple of files that may help. One is the basic Lister manual which contains a lot of helpful info. The second is the wear limits data from the shop manual which I used to have scanned in somewhere but can no longer find so I just scanned in the relevant pages.

Thanks heaps for the docs!

[Portugal lister]

AdeV,
looks like we now have some more info we can add thanks to Broncodriver99 very kind offerings.
Could i ask, when i look at some of the old posts, i see replies from people but their post appears to be blank, why is that please..... i assume that is why some helpful info is lost/missing?
Are we able to add broncodriver99's files to a "files" section where they might stay?

As for the torque settings on the engine when dismantling, WOW, a 4 foot breaker bar on the main crank bearing cap nuts and using my legs and nearly giving myself a hernia they finally came free.... massively over torqued and large differences in the head bolts... but everything came apart in the end.


broncodriber99.......
Thanks so much for sharing those files !!, i just knew there must have been more info available but years of asking Google only brought me the standard engine manual, im very grateful.

A day of pouring rain yesterday meant i was checking new roofs on goat barns for leaks and not doing much on the Lister, i did get half an hour, so i resurfaced one of the heads, sheet of glass and sand paper to remove some low spots where the gasket was blowing.

Later today i will post some photos and give an update,
Only thing i have found so far is the valves are very close to being on the limit below level of head.
That and the guides appear to be a little more worn than i would have expected, so thanks again for the wear limit file, very useful and removes any guess work.

How funny you have seen our YTvideos, small world eh?....... here is a small video, not public, of the milking parlour i built and is now working .... https://youtu.be/JSWc9z6WGc8

Glad to report the cast iron water pump repair is still holding strong, welding cast iron never gives full strength but it is holding in there and it must be supporting over 100 kilos in pipework above it.

Thanks again!

All the best

[broncodriver99]

Could i ask, when i look at some of the old posts, i see replies from people but their post appears to be blank, why is that please..... i assume that is why some helpful info is lost/missing?

This forum has had some ups and downs over the years. There have been a few members who opted to leave and wanted their data scrubbed from the site as well as a couple who opted to "take their ball and go home" and scrubbed their own data in the process leaving a lot of posts edited blank. There were also some issues when a huge photo hosting site, photobucket, went from free hosting to an extortion model for hosting which degredaded a lot of posts.

broncodriber99.......
Thanks so much for sharing those files !!, i just knew there must have been more info available but years of asking Google only brought me the standard engine manual, im very grateful.

You are quite welcome, sorry I didn't get them to you sooner. Technical information on these engines is a little thin as they come from an era when most of that knowledge was passed one person to the next instead of being published.

How funny you have seen our YTvideos, small world eh?....... here is a small video, not public, of the milking parlour i built and is now working .... https://youtu.be/JSWc9z6WGc8

It really is. Thank you for the video. The parlor has come a long way and looks fantastic! Good to see everyone is doing well. I hope you guys will continue to put out an update video from time to time. They were always really well put together and Molly does such a good job with commentary. I imagine you guys are busy as can be these days.

[broncodriver99]

I have attached a couple of files that may help. One is the basic Lister manual which contains a lot of helpful info. The second is the wear limits data from the shop manual which I used to have scanned in somewhere but can no longer find so I just scanned in the relevant pages.

Thanks heaps for the docs!

You are welcome, glad I could help.