New to the Forum with a CS 12-2 in Portugal

[Portugal lister]

Hi everybody.

As thread title, i live in Portugal, i bough a farm here 10 years ago and it came with a CS 12-2 installed in a small building, plumbed for pumping water. I owned a garage in the UK so know my way around engines but some parts of the lister's need some special knowledge/ Lister know-how, i think i might be lacking.

So a little intro into my Lister first,

I have been reading threads on here for some time and now i think it is time to give my Lister some much needed care and attention, i will be going back to the UK in a month or so and want to buy parts i need before returning and i am hoping you all might enjoy my journey and also you guys n girls might be kind enough to help me with any tips and advice that you think i might need.

I have the PDF manual but that is about as much info as i have.

Anyway 10 years ago i got the girl fired up, after some initial checks and it ran very well. we only ran it a few times as it took me years to find and then work out the miles of pipe work the farm had, many of it buried.

in the last 2 years i have been using the Lister every few months to fill a 140,000 litre tank we have at the top of the farm, some 250 meters away and with a head of 35 meters, this is run through old cement pipes with 4 inch bore, buried in the ground. it runs for about 4 hours each time.

We have just gone through the biggest forest fire Portugal has ever seen and the old girl worked everyday of the 3 days the fire was around us and we managed to pump over 500,000 litres of water which was used to soak the farm etc and glad to say the fire never got in to our farm. Sadly in 2019 it was not the case and we lost everything we owned due to a huge fire, i lost 5 years of work, fencing and about 3 miles of irrigation pipes and taps and every thing from our UK home was turned to ashes...... i am determined this will never happen again, at least not to that magnitude, and the Lister is the heart of our water supply.

the day after this years fire, one of the cement pipes bust and found a fountain firing out of the ground, fixed that, to then have another fountain 2 meters before that one.... tree roots wERE the cause.
How lucky we were that pipe decided to give out on us one day after the fire was deemed safe in our area.

after those were fixed i had another leak in the main cement pipe again, which i fixed yesterday.

We have no true history to the Lister but a local guy, now in his 70's worked here when he was a young boy of 7 !! and his job was to start the pump alone! and i have feeling it was installed here from new. i have Lister spanners and an old broken crank but this is from a single cylinder Lister in the "pump house"

I have some videos of the pump working which i will put up for those interested and i think it runs very well and starts very well.... but without any history after servicing i want to strip it down and get it back as good as i can get it, for my love of the machine and because we need her to not let us down in our hour of need through lack of maintenance.
The video attached shows the Lister running a quick attempt at fire defence for the Lister, should the fire just gone have reached her.

So on to why i am posting this thread..

When i first looked at the pump 10 years ago, before trying to start her, the oil level seemed high and i would have said it had diesel in the oil, because of this we ran the engine out of fuel each run as i suspected a fuel pump to be leaking, but since told that is very unlikely...is this possible??.. the pumps looked dry but the engine was filthy so was hard to say for sure, hence running it out of fuel each run.
in these 10 years i have probably run the engine a max of 100 hours in 4 hour stints.

In the last week or so i have a small dribble of fuel from the left fuel pump from the little hole at the base.
on its last oil change, (the oil change before i washed out the sump), i found what i think was a tiny piece of babbitt in the sump which worries me and was the point i knew i had to strip her down.

I have posted some photos of the engine, taken 10 years ago and any help on dates would be great as from looking at the Old Timer Engine site and my little knowledge it says 1930 OR if i add the 50 years it would make it 1963 ?

I am thinking of buying.. any advice

A complete gasket set
2 fuel pump shafts, as one is dripping a little
full set of bearings.

The problem i have is i do not want to fully strip the engine down before i leave, unless advised otherwise, so as to leave the Lister operational while i am in the UK to maintain our water supply, this is very important as we have over 50 milking goats and we milk twice a day in the parlour, and water is needed.
Could i take one head off and then re-use the gasket, just in case the pump needs to be started, for when i am away?..... just to look for ring wear on the cylinder and valves etc.

Obviously on my return from the UK i will post here the work i will be doing.

If you got this far into my post, thanks for reading!

Cheers to all

[Portugal lister]

Here is a video i sent my parents of two water sprinklers i fitted above the Lister pump house 2 weeks ago in the hope of some fire protection.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NnM6v5Q0vo

We used to have a YouTube channel and here are some videos of me repairing the water pump that got damaged some years ago after a large pine tree fell on the external metal pipe work breaking the cast iron water pump housing which i welded back together and then re-installed in a better position inside the pump house, amazingly the cast iron welds have held up with the weight of the blue taps above it, there must be well over 100KG's of taps and pipes.

Part 1
https://youtu.be/BGCxYpYVxFs?si=8VgAnYlskEE0YRvB

Part 2
https://youtu.be/iJ4sd5WMwW8?si=vP7CkE0qcR4kjYxx

Part 3
https://youtu.be/SiErOF-IB50?si=t8wxLIPmERuzOMyY

Part 4
https://youtu.be/wxUL0s6PFMM?si=qjbqTT8ezLsLx3Ib

[AdeV]

Ooh, I'm envious! Both of your living in Portugal, and the bonus of finding a working 12/2 there AND it still doing it's job to this day!

The picture of the serial number, though, says this is definitely not the original engine that your old time neighbour used....  It's a 1963 engine.

The serial no. breaks down as: No. 405, type 12/2, built in "13" + 1950 = '63.

Quite possibly the original engine was a 6/1 or 8/1 single, which was replaced with the 12/2 when its crank broke - that'd be my theory anyway.

Gaskets - you should be fine buying new gaskets, injectors, etc. from Stationary Engine Parts. There's a lot of crossover between the 6/1 and 12/2  (which is, mostly, 2 6/1s stuck together). Obviously the crank will be unique, there's probably other unique parts too, although I have no experience of the twins, so I couldn't tell you what - other than the crank & exhaust manifold... Possibly the flywheels - but, with luck, you won't need to touch any of that.

If you really did find bearing material in the sump, though, you will definitely need to investigate all the bearings. If it's from the little end, that should (I guess!) be the same a the 6/1; the big end I don't know. They're not poured babbet though (not in 1963), so at least you don't have that worry! You do need to determine if you need oversized bearings though...

[Portugal lister]

Hi AdeV,

Thanks so much for confirming it is younger than i thought !

When we looked at the farm, the Lister, and having lots of water, was a big part of buying the place, then when it worked, and so well, i was over the moon.
Although living in Portugal i have never worked so hard in my life but we love doing what we do so its all good.

The farm was abandoned for 25 years, so god knows when the last time she was started.

I did think it was impressive/unlikely for a seven year old to start the twin, although even at 70 he is still built like the proverbial brick house.

I have kept the broken crank as its part of the history of the farm and yes i also think from a smaller single cylinder Lister, and in another barn a have a J.A.P engine converted to run the old belt drive, again probably for a water pump.

In my old garage\bodyshop we did hundreds of full classic restorations and seen babbitt bearings before and the mess found in the sumps, i just assumed, thinking then it was older than 1963, it was babbitt...... makes me feel a little less worried now you say they wont be babbitt bearings. I gave the sump a good cleaning and wash with diesel before i first started her, so i wonder what it was now.

Can i ask what most of the newer crank big end bearings are made from, it doesnt say on the Stationary Engine Parts site, just curious.

 And yes being in Portugal means import duty on postage if i have to order extra parts when i return and strip her right down, think ill get standard bearings to bring back and will order others if i need, to be posted.

It has amazing compression and starts without effort with slight smoke and then runs clean after a few seconds so apart from a de-coke, valve re grind, check injectors, fuel pump rebuild and if i check the bearings, i may as well fit new ones, unless the originals might be better quality and keep the new ones as spares(?)
This will remove any doubt about that piece i found and then i have a a fresh start knowing all is done and good.

Is there any known compression specs for a healthy engine?, i have some rubber tips that you press in on my compression testers that might fit the injector hole.

It gets run pretty fast as she is a "working" machine, and that is another question, how do we know what 650 RPM is, without buying a tacho, being a twin i find it hard to listen to work out the rpm but there is plenty more movement on the fuel pumps,i guess it's possible to over rev them, assuming the fuel pump "pawl" doesnt prevent over revving?
With small increases in revs the water pump output at the 30=35mtr head increases pretty well but i dont want to over work the Lister.



Is it possible the fuel pump/s are letting fuel into the oil somehow ?. i am positive the oil level has risen slightly on a few occasions, hence me letting it run out of fuel (thinking it might be gravity leaking into the sump when engine off), as a full fuel tank fills the water tanks.... when i have thought the oil level is higher than it was i have changed the oil anyway.

I might take out the injectors before i leave and check the spray pattern, i would hope these should go on for many years with clean fuel.

What would you be looking at doing to this engine ?

Thanks again!

[Portugal lister]

So yesterday i went to buy oil and no where sells a SAE30 around me in Portugal, well not at a fair price, Only thing close was Fancy brand "classic" SAE30 but at 68Euros i wasnt buying it, modern oil on all our vehicles is around 35Euros 5ltrs. i need to find a cheaper brand or look at something else.

So i bought  15w40 petrol/diesel Mineral oil but it has a CF rating.
Looking at the CS Lister manual it does say a level one detergent oil is ok but i am not sure on the relevance in SAE oils ?

"I1 tem-perate climates (up to 85'F (30'C)) oils complying with BSl905 or DEF2l0lC or
MIL'L'I2I04A must be used when load and servicing conditions are favourable but for arduous
duties in temp€rate climates, and for all applications in tropical climates (above 85"F (30'C))
the use of oils to supplement I level of detergency is recommended. Supplement 1 oils multi
also be used if the sulphur content of the fuel is l% or more. Multigrade oils must have a
de-sree of detergency equivalent to Supplement I level and must not bJ used for heavy duty
applications."[/u]

I dont think my water pump would be classed as a heavy duty application.

But the reason for choosing the 15w40 oil, apart from being 15Euros for 10 litres,  is i need to run the pump and have been worried of a rising oil level and the possibility i have fuel somehow getting into the engine oil..... visible external leak on one injector pump.
The oil level was 10mm below the filler opening so has risen a fair bit.

Now on cleaning out the sump i found more bearing material 
From memory last time i cleaned it out i found only a couple of pieces but this looks like it needs a bearing asap!.... i would really appreciate any opinions on this, am i ok to run the engine for a few more hours.??
Off to the uk in a few weeks and returning for Christmas with a box of parts to give it an overhaul and now looks like i will be doing all the bearings for peace of mind but would really like to get some feed back from those seeing this or worse....i know these engines are workhorses and can run on lack of servicing etc but to me worn bearings arent normally a thing to ignore, crank/big end damage 

Thanks for any advice in advance

[Portugal lister]

Some pics as i couldnt post my new comment with pics attached 

[sirpedrosa]

Hi Alex, Gentles

Pull with your hands (bare) up at the tip of crank at both sides to see if it slacks up and down (radial) , after that side to side to at axial axis

with the crankcase open and a good light spotting see if big ends are slacking.

It's a simple engine, but a huge mass running.

All mine use 15/40w mineral.

Cheers
VP

[Portugal lister]

Thanks very much for that Valdemar,

I will check this morning, i already did that with the crank, but only quickly and i did not notice any movement, but i will give that a better try this morning.

Do you think it is worth me removing the big end caps to look at the condition of the lower shells ?

In this video i took yesterday, the big end bearing nuts do not have any marks on them, like nobody has ever removed them... BUT the centre crank journal cap has been removed before and the cotter pins are installed very badly, one looks like just a piece of wire, but the nuts are tight.

The left hand big end lower cap does not show a number 1 stamp but the con rod and pin show the number 1 stamp, i wonder if this lower cap has been installed the wrong way around.
The right big end you can see all the number 2 stamps...  and this makes me think it could be number 1 (lower) bearing that has worn
I felt no 'up and down' movement in both big ends

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obF1b0oLOJw

do you think my fuel pump that is now leaking, only a little, on the outside, do you think this could be leaking into the sump ?

[Portugal lister]

Also i think i am going mad 

in my memory when i first got the engine and checked everything, in my defence it was almost 11 years ago, i am certain it had NO fuel filter !!!

Well yesterday i was proved wrong, and i am very happy about this 

now to buy a new filter

[sirpedrosa]

Alex, Gentles

Take the feller gauge and measure the axial clearance of big ends. put your finger behind the big end 1 (think you call it left) to see if conrod is marked...and is not in backwards (just me thinking loud).

See if the center bush (big one) is well feeded. (just in case)

Just my 5 cents to the rant... for  now! 

Cheers
VP

PS: that water pump is no load at all for that pearl. You can put half dozen (it got insane compression kick)

[Portugal lister]

I have just been down to the Lister and checked the crank for movement..... if i lift up really hard i can just hear some play, but nothing that feels bad.
No movement when i pull horizontally.

as you see in the video everything is wet with oil and engine has not started in 3-4 weeks, so i think i t is getting oil.

I will check axial play on big ends with feeler gauges and report back.
I will also take a mirror to see if i can find a 1 stamped on the big end lower cap.

I am very tempted to remove all three lower caps to check condition, you think it is advisable ?
And if i do, what sort of torque is needed to tighten the big ends and center main bearing please as i can not find any information on torque settings.

Thanks for the rant 

Do you think

[sirpedrosa]

I am very tempted to remove all three lower caps to check condition, you think it is advisable ?
And if i do, what sort of torque is needed to tighten the big ends and center main bearing please as i can not find any information on torque settings.

Alex,

If you want to run out the witches from the crankcase... just go ahead! 

Put a small dot mark on nuts before remove them.

Torque specs are attached. (RIP Peter Forbes)

Cheers
VP

PS: take a look ant my special tool to snug center bearing.

[Portugal lister]

Wow a torque list, thank you very much and MR Forbes!

I could not see a photo of you special tool, i think i have a spanner in my little tool box.

I measured the big end axial gap, about the same both sides. .010 or .254mm
I think if you look VERY closely there is a number 1 stamped on the correct side, it is just very hard to see it.

When pushing the crank inwards there is a small amount of movement but alone and with little space i have not measured this, i am more concerned, for now, with a bad bearing causing damage.

Off now to remove the caps to find a sick one.

[sirpedrosa]

Alex, Gentles

FWIW Ill dont show my tool box to not being embarrassed! 

Safe Weekend.
VP

PS: see here: https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=8320.msg102390#msg102390

PS2: bigends doesnt have castle nuts! intersting. Maybe late models doesnt have them.

[Portugal lister]

I really like your tool, it did the job so it is now a specialist tool !
with such a tool how did you torque the nuts just made them very tight?
I am now thinking how will my torque wrench fit to the rear nut, so maybe i have to be the judge of torque?

OK,
so i eventually got the center journal cap off....... but only a 15/16 which is more like 1.5 inches (?) socket fitted perfectly to the nuts and that size is not listed in the torque list you sent me..... they were very tight!!.... so what should there torque setting be.
I think the last guy did them up to "FT" torque specification, %ucking Tight  , as you see in the video.

Then the cap did not remove so easily, i had to tap it many times and then use a lever for it to drop down....... then i found some damage but nothing that would give the amount of rubbish i found in the sump.

But the crank journal looked ok, i could not feel any scratches with my finger nail,  some light marring, nothing a light polish wont fix, i hope!
When i re-torque this cap on, after finding a torque setting,  i will remove the big ends.

here is me removing the nuts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY948nO-WK4

and finally they turn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh_0VRFoafo