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91
Everything else / Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Last post by snowman18 on November 10, 2019, 02:34:49 AM »
glort high speed centrifuges are capable of separating isotopes from gaseous mixtures, this is how they enrich uranium.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_centrifuge

 

Yes, but that's not something you would build yourself or would be able to afford for drying oil.


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How many G forces was your centrifuge producing, where you running cold oil or did you first heat the oil to improve its viscosity, which would encourage the water to drop out.

Our centrifuges produced about z G's before self destructing.   :(  Commercial fuges people have used both the bowl and the jet type do NOT get dissolved water out of oil.  There is a big difference between water droplets and dissolved water.  Dissolved water particles are very small and the molecular weight is too close to water to seperate by non specialised fuges. Not basing this on my experience with them as much as going on other peoples attempts I have been reading for 15 years plus. Some real smart people have taken this on and never had success UNLESS, they invest considerable energy in heating the oil to drive the water off by evaporation.

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The deep fryer operates at temperatures well above the point of evaporating water which is evident when a basket of potatoes chips i first submerged into the hot oil.

Yep, that's what everyone thinks until they they get oil that is wet and learn there are other forces at work. TBH, I forget what they are now, learned and forgot about it a long time ago as it was irrelevant.  The frying process even though it typicaly operates at double the boiling point of water does NOT eliminate all the moisture from the oil.  Yeah, I know it sounds illogical but it's a well known thing in veg circles not something I made up.

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The sizzle and bubbling only cease once the top layer of the chip has been cauterized sealing the remaining moisture inside.

That is not what happens.  The moisture continues to escape through the cells of the food while it is being cooked.  If all the water was eliminated you would have something as dry as a brick.  If the food was sealed, the increasing temperature and steam pressure inside the food would cause it to rupture.

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Oil is lighter than water, increase the speed of your centrifuge and warm the oil before feeding it into the centrifuge the water has no choice other than to be liberated.

Again, this -may- be possible on some specialised industrial Fuge but it's not going to happen on a home made bowl fuge before it explodes.  Again, many smart people around the world have tried it and no one got dry oil that would pass a simple Hot pan test which is the basic standard of dry oil just by spinning alone.

 Not talking about droplets, talking about DISSOLVED water which must be eliminated to prevent a range of problems.

Quote
Also have you installed a water separator into your engine fuel system.
 

Completely and utterly useless against DISSOLVED water.  If one is putting oil wet enough to have drop out in their tank, they are very soon going to be one of these people whom complain Veg does not work and caused them problems when the people who prepare the oil right will do it for years without issue.  The ONLY separator / filter that is effective against dissolved water is the water block type Filters. Forget who makes them now, Racor Maybe? But they are very expensive ( and bulky)  and if you run undried oil through them they will block up fast as is their job.

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Bubbling air through your oil is no guarantee your going to end up drying the oil, air itself has a lot of moisture content.

Maybe no guarantee but if you do it right and check it, definitely works and effective.  Have the vids demonstrating it.  Yes, air does have moisture but unless you are dying on very humid days which a smart person pays attention to and avoids, the humidity in the air is still low enough to dry the dissolved water out of the oil to the required standard.  I have also channelled combustion air from a burner though the processor and that really rips the moisture out.   

Quote
I have a refrigerated air dryer from a retired dentist similar to the one below. Instead of passing air through the chill plate I'll be passing water used from my still condenser.

Refrigeration and vacuum have been  used and are very effective but also very energy intensive. I have seen some setups that pump some serious energy into drying and filtering when it's just no necessary. Comes back to the old thing that many seem to believe that unless something is complicated, expensive, energy intensive and has a lot of built in failure points, it can't possibly work.  If you have the gear and it's not a lot to run, that would work well but again, that's not the fuge alone drying the oil, it's an extra process.

I would strongly suggest you look up what a hot pan test is and when you have spun up your oil, test it and see how much water you have. Unless you are exceptionally lucky, you WILL have water in  any used oil you get. In 17 years I have got oil ONCE that would pass a HPT without drying it.
I would say pretty conservatively I have got over 100K L  in the time I have been playing with veg.

When you get it really dry, you can add 3-4 drops of water to a cup of oil, mix it up and still pass the HTP.
92
Everything else / Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Last post by glort on November 10, 2019, 01:11:32 AM »

An inexpensive VFD ( variable frequency drive ) is all that is needed to run that motor and they will spin up to 20,000 rpm. Om the video below Raw Power near the beginning of the video says the bowel is operating at 6,000 rpm.

For a bowel the size of the Raw power centrifuge the manufacture is still within the safe limits. But I would not attempt to pull more G force fro that bowel.

I would not attempt or advise anyone to try to spin a Motor let alone a bowl that wasn't xrayed and tested to 20K rpm.  No normal motor would stand that without a good chance of it coming apart like a hand grenade at those speeds.
I'd sure as hell not try anything home made at 6000 Rpm either.  I'm no safety sook but there is a point where self preservation kicks in.
It's not just about the integrity of the bowl itself, if it has a Kg or more of oil and crud sitting in it, that just increases the torsional stresses and strains.

Looking at that fuge site was certainly a trip down memory lane. I remember when those things first came out.
Then just like now, While they do a good job, I can still do the same and in some ways better job with a setup costing $150 rather than the better part  of $2k.

Yes, the fuge will get the oil cleaner, don't deny that BUT, it's cleaned to a point where it doesen't matter.  Onboard filters are Typicaly 10 UM. Some rare ones are 7 UM.  I clean my oil with a 1 or a 5 UM filter.  They cost me $8 and have for years. I change them out to be safe so the pumps I use don't collapse them if they do block after I have put 2500L through them.
If you clean your oil to .5 Um with a fuge, it makes no difference.  It's like filling a bucket from another bucket or a water truck.  Once you have your 10L, the rest is just a waste of time and effort.

Typicaly I change my onboard fuel filters every second oil change which is 6 Months.  Even though I get them used, they are still never blocked at that time but again, I do it as a precaution not that I haven't changed a load of them by the side of the road over the years when I was still learning.
I know a lot of people crap on about them lasting a year or more but I really don't care.  It's illogical to spend $1500 to extend the life of a 10 or even $20 fuel filter which you would never come near getting back. Save the investment on a fuge and put it into fuel filters and water filters for the processor and you'll be miles better off.

The other aspect is you WILL get contamination in the tank anyway no matter how clean it and the oil starts out.  The return oil going through the hot injector pump will polymerise, you will get dust and dirt coming in through breathers, chemical and metal reactions, soft hose degradation going into the fuel and so on.
If you are filtering your oil cleaner than comes out the pump to start with, that's enough.

It's also why making sure the oil IS dry is more important rather than cleaning the oil to a pointless degree.
93
Listeroid Engines / Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Last post by gusbratz on November 10, 2019, 01:04:10 AM »
I am using a 10kw ST head. I have converted all my light bulbs to LED and since that change have seen flicker when the well pump kicks on. I wired an AVR into the 10kw head and have a switch so I can flip it back to the harmonic winding and resistor if I want. I seem to get less flicker and voltage drop with the AVR. I also watched the waveform with my oscilloscope and it is a much better wave form with the AVR.
94
Everything else / Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Last post by glort on November 10, 2019, 12:49:14 AM »
glort high speed centrifuges are capable of separating isotopes from gaseous mixtures, this is how they enrich uranium.

Yes, but that's not something you would build yourself or would be able to afford for drying oil.


Quote
How many G forces was your centrifuge producing, where you running cold oil or did you first heat the oil to improve its viscosity, which would encourage the water to drop out.

Our centrifuges produced about z G's before self destructing.   :(  Commercial fuges people have used both the bowl and the jet type do NOT get dissolved water out of oil.  There is a big difference between water droplets and dissolved water.  Dissolved water particles are very small and the molecular weight is too close to water to seperate by non specialised fuges. Not basing this on my experience with them as much as going on other peoples attempts I have been reading for 15 years plus. Some real smart people have taken this on and never had success UNLESS, they invest considerable energy in heating the oil to drive the water off by evaporation.

Quote
The deep fryer operates at temperatures well above the point of evaporating water which is evident when a basket of potatoes chips i first submerged into the hot oil.

Yep, that's what everyone thinks until they they get oil that is wet and learn there are other forces at work. TBH, I forget what they are now, learned and forgot about it a long time ago as it was irrelevant.  The frying process even though it typicaly operates at double the boiling point of water does NOT eliminate all the moisture from the oil.  Yeah, I know it sounds illogical but it's a well known thing in veg circles not something I made up.

Quote
The sizzle and bubbling only cease once the top layer of the chip has been cauterized sealing the remaining moisture inside.

That is not what happens.  The moisture continues to escape through the cells of the food while it is being cooked.  If all the water was eliminated you would have something as dry as a brick.  If the food was sealed, the increasing temperature and steam pressure inside the food would cause it to rupture.

Quote
Oil is lighter than water, increase the speed of your centrifuge and warm the oil before feeding it into the centrifuge the water has no choice other than to be liberated.

Again, this -may- be possible on some specialised industrial Fuge but it's not going to happen on a home made bowl fuge before it explodes.  Again, many smart people around the world have tried it and no one got dry oil that would pass a simple Hot pan test which is the basic standard of dry oil just by spinning alone.

 Not talking about droplets, talking about DISSOLVED water which must be eliminated to prevent a range of problems.

Quote
Also have you installed a water separator into your engine fuel system.
 

Completely and utterly useless against DISSOLVED water.  If one is putting oil wet enough to have drop out in their tank, they are very soon going to be one of these people whom complain Veg does not work and caused them problems when the people who prepare the oil right will do it for years without issue.  The ONLY separator / filter that is effective against dissolved water is the water block type Filters. Forget who makes them now, Racor Maybe? But they are very expensive ( and bulky)  and if you run undried oil through them they will block up fast as is their job.

Quote
Bubbling air through your oil is no guarantee your going to end up drying the oil, air itself has a lot of moisture content.

Maybe no guarantee but if you do it right and check it, definitely works and effective.  Have the vids demonstrating it.  Yes, air does have moisture but unless you are dying on very humid days which a smart person pays attention to and avoids, the humidity in the air is still low enough to dry the dissolved water out of the oil to the required standard.  I have also channelled combustion air from a burner though the processor and that really rips the moisture out.   

Quote
I have a refrigerated air dryer from a retired dentist similar to the one below. Instead of passing air through the chill plate I'll be passing water used from my still condenser.

Refrigeration and vacuum have been  used and are very effective but also very energy intensive. I have seen some setups that pump some serious energy into drying and filtering when it's just no necessary. Comes back to the old thing that many seem to believe that unless something is complicated, expensive, energy intensive and has a lot of built in failure points, it can't possibly work.  If you have the gear and it's not a lot to run, that would work well but again, that's not the fuge alone drying the oil, it's an extra process.

I would strongly suggest you look up what a hot pan test is and when you have spun up your oil, test it and see how much water you have. Unless you are exceptionally lucky, you WILL have water in  any used oil you get. In 17 years I have got oil ONCE that would pass a HPT without drying it.
I would say pretty conservatively I have got over 100K L  in the time I have been playing with veg.

When you get it really dry, you can add 3-4 drops of water to a cup of oil, mix it up and still pass the HTP.
95
Everything else / Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Last post by snowman18 on November 10, 2019, 12:43:23 AM »
Most modern washing machine motors these days are 3 phase running off an inverter incorporated into an onboard module.

The use of a 3 phase motor eliminates the need for a transmission, the motor receives commands from the inverter module for speed and direction of rotation.

If your neighbor had set a broken washing machine to the curb in all probability it has a faulty inverter, the motor should be salvaged for projects like building a centrifuge.

An inexpensive VFD ( variable frequency drive ) is all that is needed to run that motor and they will spin up to 20,000 rpm. Om the video below Raw Power near the beginning of the video says the bowel is operating at 6,000 rpm.

For a bowel the size of the Raw power centrifuge the manufacture is still within the safe limits. But I would not attempt to pull more G force fro that bowel.

Here's a link to calculate g forces generated re diameter and rpm's applied.
http://www.endmemo.com/bio/grpm.php


VFD powering up a repurposed smart drive motor.
https://youtu.be/yaIUp9ZzjYU

Raw Power Centrifuge
https://youtu.be/yaIUp9ZzjYU
96
Lister Based Generators / Re: Four cylinder Lister Engine pair
« Last post by listard-jp2 on November 09, 2019, 07:25:26 PM »
/\ Be careful with those Glortismn like assumptions because whilst these engines will run to 2500 RPM, they would have to have had certain high speed options fitted from the outset, and without them, the life expectancy will be drastically reduced.

These engines are most likely a Lister SL4 engine, it could also be SR4 (it is difficult to tell exactly from the data plate).

Apart from a closer inspection of the data plate, the shape of the cylinder barrel finning will confirm it. The SL has a fin profile which follows the shape of the cylinder bore, ie more rounded.
The SR will have a finer pitch and the when looking from above the outline of the finning will be square.

If it is an SL (most likely) before buying, confirm these engines are good runners, and nothing critical is missing, as there are a lot of unique parts in an SL, and even more so in a four cylinder version.

These 4 cylinder engines are rare, and were typically used on grain dryer and marine applications.

Here is a marine version: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lister-SL4-20hp-4-cylinder-marine-diesel-engine-vintage-stationary-engine/333382378189

Here is an instruction manual for a SR4 grain dryer: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lister-Type-SR4-Air-Cooled-Diesel-Engine-Instructions-Parts-List-Book-1398-1068/202556892415

If it is anything else other than a good runner walk away, otherwise you could be having open wallet surgery thereafter.

Someone on here did document the restoration of one of these engine some time ago, and when he did so, he was lucky, as Sleeman and Hawken were on the knockings of the last of specialist parts he required (I know as I researched it for him, as you will see from the forum thread), see here:

https://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=6174.0

97
Everything else / Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Last post by snowman18 on November 09, 2019, 06:02:54 PM »
glort high speed centrifuges are capable of separating isotopes from gaseous mixtures, this is how they enrich uranium.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_centrifuge

How many G forces was your centrifuge producing, where you running cold oil or did you first heat the oil to improve its viscosity, which would encourage the water to drop out.

The deep fryer operates at temperatures well above the point of evaporating water which is evident when a basket of potatoes chips i first submerged into the hot oil.

The sizzle and bubbling only cease once the top layer of the chip has been cauterized sealing the remaining moisture inside.

Oil is lighter than water, increase the speed of your centrifuge and warm the oil before feeding it into the centrifuge the water has no choice other than to be liberated.

Also have you installed a water separator into your engine fuel system.

Bubbling air through your oil is no guarantee your going to end up drying the oil, air itself has a lot of moisture content.

I have a refrigerated air dryer from a retired dentist similar to the one below. Instead of passing air through the chill plate I'll be passing water used from my still condenser.







98
Listeroid Engines / Re: DES 8/1 generator build
« Last post by veggie on November 09, 2019, 03:29:18 PM »
      I  thought I would give an update. I just passed over 110 hours on the generator now. it only gets run when the power goes out.  the cyl head still weeps coolant even with a new head gasket. It is a small amount and I don't really worry about it.  The power went out yesterday and the lister ran the whole house  ( all lights tv, computer, coffee pot, well pump, fridge, beer fridge, other beer fridge, freezer, washing machine, wood boiler circ pumps household of 6) for 23.5 hours and used just over 5.5 gallon of diesel.  that is a fun statistic for you. 
     After such a good run I was looking things over and noted that the mice had moved into my spare parts. When I bought this engine from Gary at DES I bought a whole complement of spare parts. Piston, rod, bearings, bushings injector, injection pump ect... ectů the mouse urine is very corrosive and was damaging my spares as they ate the cardboard. So all the spares had to get unboxed cleaned and moved into steel ammo cans. I painted them with fluid film as I put them away. Other that that it has been great.

Gus, are you seeing any flicker in the lights?
Which generator head are you using ?

Veggie

99
Lister Based Generators / Re: Four cylinder Lister Engine pair
« Last post by glort on November 09, 2019, 03:03:32 PM »

The name plate you pictures seems to say 24 HP cont which seems pretty conservative for a 4 Cyl  engine. I'd think you could get 20 KW out of it intermittently which would be all youd be doing for a chipper anyway.
100
Everything else / Re: Centrifuges Really Work
« Last post by glort on November 09, 2019, 02:56:49 PM »

The one thing I don't favour with fuges for cleaning oil is they don't dry it.  While many people don't bother drying oil, having run vehicles and engines on it 17 Years this month, I believe it is absolutely essential for trouble free use of veg oil.  Unlike Diesel, Veg is Hygroscopic and dissolved water cannot be settled or spun out.  To dry the oil requires a separate operation that makes settling ( which spinning in a fuge is only accelerated) and then drying just as easy as spinning it up.

I tested my settled and filtered oil in a fuge many years ago. The amount of sediment the fuge got out was basically irrelevant and as the chemist that owned the fuge said, the individual particles were so small they would most likely pass through a filter and certainly a fuel injector so were of no consequence. I use 1 or 5 Um water filters and can put through at least 2500L .  I can put through more but after that much I just change them as a matter of precaution.

Mate and I tried building fuges a couple of times out of an old washing machine and some other bits and pieces and gave up on the idea.  The use of a mower deck spindle is a good one as you need something that is REALLY  strong and something that is very well balanced. If you have built a fuge yourself, that is a credit to you as it's not an easy thing to get right despite how simple they appear. There are a LOT of forces at play in those things.
Our washing machine attempt was going well till it got  a wobble with about 10L of ooil in it and went from spinning smoothly to exploding in every sense of the word in less than a second. I'll bet my mate is still cleaning polermiresed oil off his tools to this day. Also bet that not one single thing that was there in that shed has the slightest hint of corrosion.

I would suggest incorporating a drying mechanism into your fuge design.  I use a bubbling system in a tank that recirculates and can dry and filter 200L of oil in as little as 30 Min.  That's normally in summer, winter may take an hour or 3 depending on if I add heat and the humidity and how long the oil has settled.

Once it comes out the processor I know it's cleaner than pump diesel and every bit as water free.
I would also suggest having your oil dry enough to pass a hot pan test as a minimum before putting it into a fuel tank.
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