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Messages - BruceM

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2821
Scott, yes, each carbon fiber push rod is 2 oz, originals 6.8 oz.

2822
Listeroid Engines / Re: THE ENGINE ROOM
« on: February 04, 2006, 05:15:51 AM »
Nice job on the good looking engine room, Morgan.  Small structures are still a lot of work- all the same trim, corners, door, windows, etc.   I admire your raised concrete base;  that is a very nice feature! You'll appreciate it every time you start or service your Lister. 

Best Wishes,
Bruce M







2823
Second day on the Lister, and I have a few things to report.  I'm lumping them all here instead of hunting up all the original threads cause I'm bushed!

Carbon Fiber Push Rods:
I finished and tested the carbon fiber push rods today:

http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?pos=-110

The stock push rods weight 6.8 oz each, the carbon fiber ones 2.0 oz each.
This is where I should tell you how the engine is now so quiet I had to check to make sure it was running, and I had to turn back the governor as it was running faster, on so much less fuel, etc.  Right?

I'd love to say they were worth the 5 hours I spent (making the push rod ends), but I'm too much of a pragmatist to say that. They do change clackety clackety, to claukety claukety, but that's about it.  Noticeable, but not enough for the bother.

Oil Sight- Sensor
I Tested the oil sight/low oil sensor yesterday, with wierd results.  The new version with oil fill stand pipe didn't work right- when the engine was running, the oil level went up almost 3/4" inch! After some WTF'ing and head scratching, I realized that the trapped air in the (capped) oil fill pipe was expanding when the engine ran and pulled a vacuum on the crankcase.  Today I took it off  and it works properly again. That's progress, right?   ::)  You can just see the oil filter inside and below the breather door opening. The oil level sight/sensor works great.

http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?pos=-111

Oil filter/crank scraper (Hotater II). 

http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?pos=-112

After noting that the running engine had 1/2" of oil level drop on earlier tests of the oil sight, I decided to wrap the filter fairly close to the crank.  An email from George B inspired this, he mentioned the power loss from having a "taffy pull" of oil following the crank, and sent me a photo of another slow speed machine (3hp) with a crank scraper designed into the sump.

Well, I had to have SOME good luck today, and this is it.  The running oil level with the oil filter only goes down by about 1/8-3/16", slowly over the first 15 seconds of running.  This is the oil filter filling!
No more 1/2" oil level drop!  When the engine stops, instead of immediately going back up, it takes about half a minute for the oil to drain from the (quilted paper towel over 100tpi copper mesh) filter!
So the amount of oil "in the air" seems to have been reduced significantly.

I was slightly chagrined to find that the oil filter is about 1/2" too deep when the sump is full to the crank knuckle but for a prototype, I'm happy.

Cold starts with proper COMPRESSION:
 It wasn't cold today but for the first time I'm getting "cold" starts on the first compression stroke.  So it appears that my work in honing cylinder, milling cylinder from proper head clearance, and hand lapping the valves has helped a lot.   :D   I cannot pull the engine through compression no matter how hard I try- I have to rock it backwards to get the exhaust valve lifter in. This is new for me.

Special thanks to Shipchief, Hotater, Daren, Gerry, Kevin and other good people here for your help and creative ideas.

Best Wishes,
Bruce












2824
Listeroid Engines / Carbon fiber pushrods
« on: February 03, 2006, 02:00:37 PM »
Pushrods.net (thanks again Kevin) didn't have cup ends to match my carbon fiber tubes (nor larger than),, so I've had to make some ends.  Three down, one more cup to go.  Shoud be interesting to see if these improve valve train clatter.  If I were starting over, I'd pick carbon rod with ID to fit their 0.320 OD cup shaft.

Bruce M
Snowflake, AZ
Metro 6/1



2825
Listeroid Engines / Re: Clinder Honing, Head Clearance, Cylinder milling
« on: February 03, 2006, 05:48:46 AM »
Hey Gerry,
Yes, valve clearances were measured with valve train connected and adjusted.  Wouldn't mean much otherwise  ;D

Yes, my valve seats are recessed into the head a fair amount.  Different head design than Hotater's, it seams.

My machinist suggested clay for measuring valve clearance- and I had some plastic clay in the shop. A little clay ball on the piston under each valve, reassemble head and valve train, adjust valves, rotate twice, disassemble and measure the flattened clay balls. 

Squashing lead and clay in the Lister is really quite fun.  ;)

2826
Listeroid Engines / Re: Runaway
« on: February 03, 2006, 05:33:48 AM »
It's good to hear these stories.  I wonder if while I'm hooking up auto shut down for over temp, low oil, I should add overspeed-  or just one of the nifty vibration switches from murphy.  I think over speed would mean some serious vibration.


2827
Listeroid Engines / Re: Clinder Honing, Head Clearance, Cylinder milling
« on: February 02, 2006, 08:51:46 PM »
Gerry, The calculation I gave you was a way to determine how much to cut the plug shoulder to an equivalent head clearance reduction.  That is easily calculated. The actual new compression ratio is a lot harder, as you say.

A  0.016 reduction  in head clearance from standard spec for your engine is what's needed for 8000 feet elevation, as removing one paper shim of that thickness was the usual fix for high altitude running. I got this info from George B.

My WAG is that 0.016 less than spec for head clearance would result in about the same compression ratio as the "compression valve in".  (Which has leaked out the the sieve whch is my memory.)  But give the "creativity" in casting and such by the different Listeroid manufacturers, this wouldn't likely be very accurate.  If this is totally bogus, let me know, please.

I did replace my milled cylinder and check the valve clearances. 

Here's what I have now:
Head Clearance: .037" head clearance (spec is .045-.050" for my built in 2002 Metro) measured by lead  Ten mils under the middle of spec was about where I thought I should be for operation at 5600 feet.

Exhaust valve face to piston clearance:  .060", measured with plastic clay putty  ball

Intake valve face to piston clearance:    .100",  measured with plastic clay putty  ball

The engine now likes hand starting much more, and has a bit more "bounce" in her step; a bit more vertical axis vibration. Starting exhaust is cleaner.


2828
Listeroid Engines / Re: Clinder Honing, Head Clearance, Cylinder milling
« on: February 02, 2006, 02:18:23 PM »
Gerry, you should pull the head and check your head to piston clearance with a snip of solder. 
I seriously doubt that the assemblers check this and adjust the cylinder shims.  Mine was off by 0.060 or so!

While you're there you can lap the valves and check your cylinder bore honing.

To calculate the plug shoulder cut for an equivalent cylinder shim:

Volume of a cylinder is heightx Pi x radius squared.  Figure your change in head height in inches x 3.13 x2.25 x2.25  (assuming your bore is .5"). This will give you the volume of the change in head height in cubic inches.

Divide that result by the area of the plug concave insert (plug concave insert radius (half diameter) squared  x 3.14).  This will give you the shoulder cut dimension for an equivalent cylinder shim.
 
Best Wishes,
Bruce




2829
Listeroid Engines / Re: My Future Plans for My Lister
« on: February 01, 2006, 09:02:41 PM »
Sounds like the Lister music has charmed you as it has me, Willem.

I'm in the process of cutting back on my solar system plans because my Lister "needs regular exercise".
Given the price of solar panels and the life cycle costs of batteries, this also makes a lot of economic sence.  Solar will handle the little loads like lights, circ pump, boost pump.  But I'm not going to size the panels or batteries for the occasional long stretch of cloudy days (which is rare in AZ).

Best Wishes,
Bruce

2830
Listeroid Engines / Re: Clinder Honing, Head Clearance, Cylinder milling
« on: February 01, 2006, 08:54:46 PM »
Got my cylinder back today from the machine shop.  The owner/machinist told me the base and head surface were not parallel- off by 0.006".  He got it to within 0.002 when he made the cut.  Of course which surface the cylinder bore was perpendicular to is another question. 

Tomorrow I'll put her all back together and check the head and valve clearance (several times I'm sure).

Bruce M
Snowflake, AZ
Metro 6/1


2831
Listeroid Engines / Re: Air Filter
« on: February 01, 2006, 02:14:02 AM »
Valves are set cold.  Hotater's data on hot valve lash was .005 on both intake and exhaust. 
 I'll just have to watch the hot valve lash closely.


2832
Listeroid Engines / Re: Clinder Honing, Head Clearance, Cylinder milling
« on: February 01, 2006, 01:46:33 AM »
Thanks very much for the hot valve lash data, Jack!  In my Metro book the cold lash is:
 0.017 (intake),  0.032 (exhaust).  George's CD and the original Lister book have the same figures.  Is your 6/1 different???  (I know 8-1s and 10-1s are different.)

That's quite a change, more than I would have guessed.  (0.012 elongation of the cylinder and valve stems).  We'll see how the carbon fiber push rods work out. 

Best Wishes,
Bruce McCreary
Snowflake, AZ
Topless Metro 6/1 waiting for newly milled cylinder.


2833
Listeroid Engines / Carbon Fiber Push Rods
« on: January 31, 2006, 09:01:58 PM »
I got the pultruded carbon fiber tube material from
http://www.goodwindskites.com/goodwindskites/merch/list.shtml?cat=framework.pultrudedcarbon

0.472" OD, 0.350 ID.  It seems VERY strong and rigid.  Should be no problem with bending or compressability.

Now to get the pushrod ends sorted out.

Bruce McCreary
Snowflake, AZ
Metro 6/1 (now "topless" waiting for cylinder milling)

2834
Listeroid Engines / Re: Clinder Honing, Head Clearance, Cylinder milling
« on: January 31, 2006, 03:28:33 PM »
Thanks for your help, Jack. My last engine rebuild was in '71 and I'm very grateful for you expertise and experience.  I'll start out with an extra .010 manilla folder gasket (.037 total), that will get me to within 1 mil of the METRO minimum head clearance spec of .045.  Then I can measure valve clearance with plastiguage and think about removing the extra 0.010 or something less.

On my Metro head, the seated valves are recessed quite a bit, something like 0.17" or so. Maybe that will buy me some extra valve clearance for raising compression?

Once concern-  could someone please measure the hot (full normal operating temp) valve lash? I need to know how much this is changed from cold for the typical Listeroid for this exercize as well as the carbon fiber tube push rods. I don't have the generator or compressor mounted anymore as the engine was supposed to be moving to the "House of Lister" soon, so have no way of getting her hot.











2835
Listeroid Engines / Re: Clinder Honing, Head Clearance, Cylinder milling
« on: January 31, 2006, 04:01:41 AM »
How about I back off to the Metro minimum head clearance spec of 0.045 with a .027" gasket, and then valve clearance test it at 0.036 head clearance... (with a .016 gasket under the cylinder)?

Is it safe to do a lead squish test (very small bit) on the valves?

Which valve is the likely interference fit??? 


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