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Messages - BruceM

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2806
I believe the best option for solenoid triggered, spring powered shut down is to have a solenoid release the governor spring, adding very light spring between the mounting bolt on the IP to the linkage arm to assist in holding the rack closed when the engine speed is nearly zip.

That said, I'm wondering if a solenoid valve in the fuel supply line would do the trick?  This would be a nice simple solution that would lend itself better to auto starts.

Will closing the fuel line before the filter result in a fairly fast shut down?

Bruce

2807
Listeroid Engines / Rack Puller, Pusher
« on: January 04, 2006, 01:08:23 AM »
I took some measurements and thought more about a homemade Lister 6/1 rack puller today.

I see three options:

1.  I could just fit a sliding flat steel arm behind my MICO oil filter using the two lower oil filter bolts that now aren't used and it would  come out  and around the rack pin (L shaped arm)- and could be pulled from the other end.  About 15 lbs of force is needed to securely get a shut down.  I didn't measure but it's less than an inch of throw. There would be plenty of room for a spring trigger solenoid on the far end, and cocking the spring could be done by just pulling the lever out from the IP rack pin.

2. My throttle linkage has a detent and round bushing cast into the arm above where the governor hook is mounted.  This may have been an auto shut down connection at one time. it would take a push of about 20 lbs, only 3/8" of throw.  There's no practical way I can see to get a pull here, because of the linkage configuration, and a lever would be needed to cock the spring.

3. A cable to a hole in the lever arm of the existing shut down lever/cam would take about 8 lbs of force and a few inches of throw.  The routing of the cable is tricky-  not ideal but possible to route some flex cable above the fuel filter.  It's not a straight pull, so some more force will be needed.

I'll play around soon with these options and see what seems best to me.  Suggestions welcomed!

Bruce

2808
Listeroid Engines / Cheap Tach
« on: January 04, 2006, 12:45:13 AM »
The cheap model airplane optical tachs (see towerhobbies.com) work well set to 3 blades, then look for 1300 rpm if your flywheel has 6 spokes.  Point the tach through the spokes towards something light colored or bright, but leave off the AC lights.  In a pinch I've used a flashlight.

Glad to hear you came up with a clean (no sand) sump!

Best Wishes,
Bruce

2809
Listeroid Engines / Re: Auto Shut Down
« on: January 03, 2006, 05:42:04 PM »
FW Murphy sensor/switch pricing:
Here are some prices from murcal.com

L100- (Oil level guage and high/low switches)  $58.50
RP75- Diesel rack puller (30 lbs pull)                $205.75
VS2-   Vibration Sensor                                 $102.25
TM4594  DC Hour meter, low current             $37.50

The rack puller is out, but the L100 and VS2 look OK to me, price wise.  The L100 has two level switches, high and low (high for coolant leaking in the oil). The VS2 is a 3 axis vibration switch that is adjustable in all three axis.  So if something should start to vibrate in my absence...


2810
Listeroid Engines / Re: Pneumatic Starter
« on: January 03, 2006, 04:17:00 PM »
Hi Morgan,
Thanks, glad you like my air starter.  It is about as simple as it gets.

I had similar thoughts for autostart (air ram to press wheel/air motor against flywheel, with spring return). 

Another thought:  When the engine starts, the air motor speeds up as it is now driven by the flywheel instead of vice versa.  This might be detectable via a pressure switch/sensor, though an IR LED/phototransistor through the flywheel spokes could also be used to sence RPMs to shut down the starter air.

Air rams and solenoid valve are not "out of sight" price wise, either.  Grainger has a nice selection.

Auto start is something I probably won't do this year, though I do want remote shutdown to same a trip to the genshed on shut down. 

Bruce

2811
Listeroid Engines / Re: Auto Shut Down
« on: January 03, 2006, 04:06:59 PM »
McMaster.com has both vertical and horizontal "slosh proof" polypropylene flued level switches.
The horizontal unit requires a 1" hole-  I'm not thrilled at the prospect of drilling a huge hole just below the oil level to find out if they can manage with splash lube.

Plan B: tap into the drain plug with a tee, and make an outboard oil "sump", just like the Murphy oil guage/sensor.

The McMaster has vertical bracket mount switches ("slosh guard") that might be mounted in the sump ($80.) with just a wire lead to be sealed.  But horizontal switches are as cheap as $13 ea., $28 with "slosh guard". 

Bruce


2812
Listeroid Engines / Re: Auto Shut Down
« on: January 03, 2006, 03:36:47 AM »
I hadn't thought of an auto starter solenoid.  That should have way more than enough force!
I'll see what I can find at my NAPA store. Thanks, Scott.

Surplus Center has one 12v solenoid which looks like it could possibly do the trick for a rack spring trigger release:.  6 lbs max, 3/4" throw. $12.

Does anyone know of an automotive oil level sensor that might be adapted to our needs?

Best Wishes,
Bruce

2813
Listeroid Engines / Re: Auto Shut Down
« on: January 02, 2006, 11:32:24 PM »
Thanks for finding that price, Morgan.  It seems a bit much to me, also.  I'll be the oil and vibration sensors are equally precious.  I'd love to get my hands on the motion sensor to see how it's made.

Guess I'll homebrew the auto shut down.  I do like the rack shut off spring with a solenoid trigger approach that Murphy uses.  This seems a situation where our resident master gunsmith might have some thoughts on the spring triggering/reset mechanism.

Any body found a nice 12V DC solenoid with some balls?  I bought one from Jameco and was pretty disappointed; the force listed was apparently only at 0.01mm from full retraction, as at 0.2" it was useless.

Thanks for your post Scott.  What part temp switch did you find and what's the threaded hole size?
How about drilling/threading the pipe after the thermostat? 

Bruce




2814
Listeroid Engines / Re: PCV
« on: December 31, 2005, 08:40:56 PM »
I took the PCV configuration off.  Oil everywhere especially from the fuel pump.

Rigged up a vent to the outside.  I replaced the existing vent pipe with an 1 1/4"  Taco hot water heating pump 2 bolt flange.  Reduced down to 1" pipe(it is what I had), attached 90* to a piece of belows style rubber coolant pipe, more steel pipe through the wall to a 1" check valve.  I modified the check valve by cutting the spring in half.  Original tension was too great for the airflow to open.

Very clean engine!

Great solution, Scott.  I've seen oily smoke coming out of my vent during outdoor test runs, but hadn't gotten around to thinking how that might be a problem in the genshed.  What did you use for a check valve?

Bruce

2815
Listeroid Engines / Re: Where are you calling from?
« on: December 31, 2005, 08:29:11 PM »
Who:  Bruce McCreary  BruceM  Retired (disabled) EE with background in R&D management, product development. Flight simulation, fiber optic helmet displays, avionics (Air Force AFHRL/OTE, McDonnel Douglas Helicopter), microprocessor development tools (ICE, bus analyzers, Motorola).  I enjoy some woodworking in my air powered wood shop, and sailing in my West Wight Potter sailboat (Wight Away) in the Whitel Mountain lakes nearby.  I do disability engineering voluteer work for a local non-profit.

Where:
 Building a new way off grid homestead half an hour from my present home outside Snowflake, AZ.  The Lister 6/1 will be pumping water, providing power and compressed air for my shop.  My genshed "The House of Lister" is almost complete and the Lister will be moving in shortly.

How:
Found out about Listers at Utterpower when web searching for a "low rpm" solution to a generator solution for my off grid homesite.  I have MS and epilepsy, the latter aggravated by some sounds.  3600 rpms sets are excruciating, even 1800 rpm gensets bother me badly, and when I learned of 650 rpm Listers, I was hooked. I was already a diesel fan;  I drive an '85 Merecedes 300D which I've restored.  I am just plain thrilled with the lovely sound of the Lister. 




2816
Listeroid Engines / Auto Shut Down
« on: December 31, 2005, 08:11:20 PM »
I'm interested in this topic and wanted to pass along some links to fwmurphy.com that Shipchief (Scott) suggested that I thought were fantastic:

Here's a vibration sensor
http://www.fwmurphy.com/products/vibration_time_overspeed/vs2.htm

Here's an oil level switch/guage
http://www.fwmurphy.com/products/fluid_level/l100_l120_l127_l128.htm

Here's a diesel engine "rack puller" (shut down, spring loaded)
http://www.fwmurphy.com/products/engine_motor/rp75.htm

And a temperature switch/guage:
http://www.fwmurphy.com/products/temperature/20t_25t.htm

I'll report back when I find some pricing on these.

Bruce McCreary
Metro 6/1 (2000 vintage, aged in the crate)
Snowflake, AZ



2817
Listeroid Engines / Re: Oil Filter!!
« on: December 31, 2005, 07:37:42 PM »
Great idea for those of us with splash lubes,  Hotater.  The photo is now inaccessable- and I want to copy your design.  Can you post it to the coppermine or email it to me? rbmcc at frontiernet dot net.

Thanks!
Bruce

2818
Listeroid Engines / Re: Fuel System question
« on: December 31, 2005, 07:03:52 PM »
Good thoughts and suggestions, Shipchief. I'll have to rethink tank size.

Another question:  What clear(ish) tubing is compatible with motor oil, and what is compatible with diesel and biodiesel?  Applications-  clear tube from sump with dust cap to act as oil level sight/filler, clear tube for fuel tank sight guage.  HDPE is compatible, I believe, though not too clear.  What about vinyl tube?  Others, sources?

Another fuel question:  I'd like to add a water separator bowl to the fuel tank.  One possibility- tee off the bottom, straight down, a short section of clear tube with bleed valve at the end to drain off water, fuel to engine through the 90 degee joint.  But I'm hoping shipchief or someone can point me to an off the shelf water separator.

Bruce

2819
Listeroid Engines / Re: Cooling a Listeroid---
« on: December 31, 2005, 06:54:43 PM »
Murphy has some very nice engine controls. Thanks Scott!

They also have a rack puller that would be sweet for auto shut down:
http://www.fwmurphy.co.uk/products/engine_controls/engmot_rp75.htm
It's a 12v solenoid which releases a spring to pull the fuel rack closed.

I'll have to give them a call Monday and see what the prices are like and will report back here.

Bruce


2820
Listeroid Engines / Re: Cooling a Listeroid---
« on: December 31, 2005, 05:32:19 PM »
Thanks Joe, I'll go with the lowest pressure Stant cap I can find!
(Better safe than sorry.)  I have a large radiator, so presently don't have a fan planned (little/no power when pumping air for the shop), just going to mount the radiator outside and see how it goes.  I would have liked to use a cast iron radiator, but there's none of them here in AZ.

Where/what are you using for a radiator overflow reservoir?  I found a plastic one at NAPA, but that won't hold up outside here.  What's your plan?

Since we are at the same stage of things:  Have you figured out an auto shutdown mechanism?
I'd like to have shut down on over-temp and low oil at least. Later maybe add vibration and sound, since the shed is over a hill from the house site and I won't be able to hear it.  Had been thinking about a thermal switch epoxy steel'ed to the water outlet pipe stub, actuating a solenoid controlled air cylinder to push off the fuel.  Low oil seems tricky because of the splash lube.  Vibration- maybe a couple mercury type switches.

Anyone solved the auto shutdown situation or some good ideas???

Bruce


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