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Messages - dkmc

Pages: 1 ... 14 15 [16]
Listeroid Engines / Re: Lister w/ DI and Nat Gas fuel
« on: November 26, 2006, 10:08:07 PM »
Well, it would be nice if I actually got email notification of responses on this thread, but most of these forum sites aren't very good about that.
Just checked back here and am amazed at these responses!

BIG big thanks to Geno for the experimentation and report !
Makes sense that the rack would close down with the added gaseous fuel.....and how handy that it 'regulates itself' in that way!
Geno, I wonder if there would be -any- sign of increased heating under full load conditions...? 

Firebrick is absolutely correct, no throttle plates allowed in the intake on a diesel.
I wonder if a venturi would help mix the gas for even distribution.......maybe at least a spray bar with a series of small holes to assure
even mixing of gas/air....??  I admit I like electronics for engine monitoring/ control, so the idea of an electronic governor and fuel 'injection'
system seems interesting to me.

Cujet: I think your best money is still to use nat gas as heat only. You will have to do some quality engineering to achieve that level of overall efficiency.

Here is the punchline to my proposal......

Here in Upstate New York, at my shop, 3 phase electric is very expensive.
When I divide my monthly electric charges by killowatt hours, it comes out to around .22-.24 cents -per- KWH....!
We are taxed to death on utilities, and the demand charges are a form of legal highway robbery...
Although my shop is small, and there are no demand charges if I am below 5KW, it always works out that the bill reads 5.2 or 5.3KW demand minimum. Go figure....
With electric rates in these ranges, I think it is well worth considering the generation of power on site, with waste heat as a 'free' by product....
The full payback on the project may only be 3 or 4 years.....?
If I'm mistaken, please tell me why.....
thanks for your info guys!

dan k

Listeroid Engines / Re: Lister w/ DI and Nat Gas fuel
« on: November 24, 2006, 03:59:06 PM »

I think thats a good idea Jim.
Perhaps a separate governor for the gas carb would be best.
I suppose modern electronics could be employed to govern engine speed also.
Then there is the question of actually adding a spark plug and ignition coil to
make the engine true spark ignition......dual fuel perhaps.
But I like the  DI approach the best.

Just wondering of any ill effects from increased heat and firing pressure on the Lister design, although the massive bearing area
and general robustness of the castings may make it a moot point. Valves and guides may suffer from the effects of Nat Gas the most.
I need an engine to experiment with!!


Listeroid Engines / Re: Lister w/ DI and Nat Gas fuel
« on: November 24, 2006, 04:42:48 AM »
' Much better to add the propane through a gas carb linked to the governor rack.'

Agreed. Mostly....
Running anything other than liquid fuel oil, WVO, etc thru the injection pump is not an option.
Will not work, and not required anyway.
There is little if any lubricant in propane, and nothing to settle out of it in the tank.
Nat Gas has NO lubricating qualities, and thats harder on any engine, which raises life expectancy questions.
How to get the gaseous fuel in the engine is not an issue.
How the engine (Listeroid) behaves on said fuel is the question.


Listeroid Engines / Lister w/ DI and Nat Gas fuel
« on: November 24, 2006, 03:58:28 AM »
Has anyone here experimented with using propane or Nat Gas as a primary fuel in a Listeroid?
I have seen it done with a VW Diesel in a lab. The Diesel injection is used to ignite the Nat Gas, but the engine runs mainly on Nat Gas, or somewhere upwards of 60% Gaseous fuel with 40% Diesel used for ignition and upper cylinder lubrication. 
Increased power with little or no additional noise, and some increased  temperature.

In my application, for the winter months, Natural Gas is most likely the lowest cost fuel I could use. (WVO is not free, and depending on what your time is worth, maybe not even cost effective).  My application would be to use Nat Gas to turn a generator before scavenging the heat for building heating. With no demand charges on Nat Gas (YET!) it makes sense to use the energy to turn a generator instead of sending it directly to a furnace.
I am in need of any information members might have regarding Gaseous fuel injection into a Listeroid engine.
The increased temperature might well be a plus for heat scavenging.

Any thoughts?   :-\

Dan K

General Discussion / Re: Two Listers in tandem?
« on: January 02, 2006, 09:06:53 PM »
1 sounds pretty reasonable.
2 sounds like adding hardware that will fail at the worst possible time.

How about shutting of the fuel to 1 cylinder in the 12/2 ?

MU (Multi Unit) operation would be fun with electronic govenors.
Another feature to incorporate in an EMS System.....

General Discussion / Re: Two Listers in tandem?
« on: January 02, 2006, 04:23:57 PM »

Yes you can.
The coupler is called a 12/2 and is supplied by the factory  :D

Seriously, why not use a 12/2 instead of connecting 2 6/1's?


Listeroid Engines / Modern systems on old Lister designs
« on: January 01, 2006, 06:16:34 PM »
Ray Kurzweil was on C-Span this morning talking about modern technonlgy and how (among LOTS of other things) power generation will become decenteralized in the not-so-distant future. He's thinkin Solar. I' m thinkin Listeroids have their place in their
someplace too. At least till solar cells get super efficent and dirt cheap...

So brings up the topic:
Another aspect of Listeroid power I'm interested in, is the adaption of modern technology to the Listeroid design, which we all
agree is quite sound and may be a bit over-engineered.
Too much of that (modern technology) might have a reverse (and adverse) effect, but I think its good to at least toss ideas and theories around.

The typical and obvious have already been named:
Improved oiling/ filtering, synthetic oils, electric starters, glow plugs,etc.
Turbocharging and supercharging sound very interesting.
I wonder how economy could be improved by adapting a modern high pressure (possibly computer controlled) fuel injection system?
There certainly seems to be 'enough' iron and bearing area in the design to handle increased power output.
The tradeoff usually comes in decreased life and reliability, but with typical lifespans measured in decades, how much tradeoff is that really?  I am considering a power generation system that will have to be as efficient as possible, and also reliable and low maintence.
I am willing to break from tradition and employ any and all modern technology to the Lister design to achieve that goal.

Some gadgets I'd like to see evolve:

Low cost electronic govener (a kit or DIY plans would be great) 

Auto start/shutdown

Remote monitoring

Variable speed/variable load inverter generator,
(the engine speed can vary from idle to full depending on load,  but the frequency is maintained at 60cyc.
This is becoming more common in RV generators now)

Possibly all the above wrapped up in an EMS  (engine management system) 

Please post your thoughts ......

dan k



Listeroid Engines / Re: Auto Shut Down
« on: January 01, 2006, 05:45:38 PM »

I'm afraid the prices might scare us all..... :o

dan k


Where are you exactly?
I'm in Big Flats near Elmira and Corning.....

dan k

Listeroid Engines / Rising electric rates in upstate New!
« on: December 26, 2005, 06:32:42 PM »
New to this forum, but have been looking at Listeroids and the idea of co-generation for a while now.  With the now increasing natural gas and electric prices, I am considering taking steps to build a system to provide
Elec. Power and heat for my machine shop.  Located in upstate New York,
our electric rates have been very high for years, and are getting rediculous
now.  With commercial 230V 3 phase plus the demand charges, I’ve been  paying  around .22 to .24 per KWH, and that is going up. On top of that, there is no demand charge if you're below 5KW total demand for a billing cycle, which I’m sure
I have been at times, but the bill always says at least 5.2 or 5.3 KW demand, so they can be sure to get the extra charges on it.
Demand charges ammount to between $75 and 150 per billing cycle.
I’m thinking 10KW would be enough capacity for present needs, and maybe 15 to 20 would be good for future expantion.  Our Natural Gas rates, although predicted to rise 25-35% have increased 80-100% on some peoples bills recently. There may be other people in these parts  interested in the ‘Listeroid solution’ also. I am familiar with Diesel engines, electricity, and mechanics, so I feel comfortable building and installing a system.

Some questions I have…..
Are there any importers near the east coast? Could I get a 12/2 – 24/2 withOUT paint on it? Are 3 phase generator heads available, or might it be a better idea to use a 3 phase motor as an induction generator? Are there any Listeroid enthausiasts in the Southern tier in the Rochester, Syracuse, Binghamton area?  I’d like to correspond with anyone that’s also interested
In this subject!

Dan K

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