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Messages - rpg52

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Listeroid Engines / Re: LUBRICATION RELATED
« on: January 07, 2006, 05:25:31 PM »
For what it's worth, the solid dipper on my PS 6-1 is also twisted ~30 degrees.  Maybe it throws oil better than straight on??  I haven't any idea, but am inclined to leave it alone.

I ran across an account from Australia about someone with a Lister in a pump house that lost a gib key and a flywheel.  The flywheel went through the shed wall and was found 2 Km away!  The owner was able to repair it, but it's a good illustration of the danger involved.

Listeroid Engines / Re: Power Solutions 6/1 inspection...
« on: January 07, 2006, 05:15:40 PM »
Hi Joe,  I think you are right, JKSON.  Mine is #8755.  The main problem I had with the gaskets was surface rust, plus the bondo/paint slathered on all the exterior surface.  Did manage to save the spacing gaskets under the cylinder head.  I think I read somewhere that the originals came with 0.015" metal spacers for these.  These were 0.017"paper, not sure how critical they are.  The engine came with an instruction booklet copied directly from Lister - no identifying marks and the engine described was the Lister with plain main bearings, the felt air filter, the hand pump lever on the oil pump, the Lister fuel filter, etc., all of which are not present on this engine.  It was recent enough to recommend using detergent oil though.  The lubricating diagram shows the oil line supplying the main bearing from an oil hole on the top of the bearing.  The engine as built pumps the oil from the side onto the TRB, which is probably unnecessary considering how much oil gets thrown around in the crankcase.  I'm still wondering whether it is worth trying to use the pump to supply a filter or to just use the Hotater-designed screen and towl crud trap.  The crud trap filter seems like it fits the level of technology of these engines better than any real filter, plus it's cheap.   My engine already has two bolts through the main crankcase door that holds the reed valve, so it seems like a fairly easy adaptation to add the crud trap filter.  I'll try to post some photos later.

Listeroid Engines / Re: Power Solutions 6/1 inspection...
« on: January 07, 2006, 01:20:58 AM »
I had a very short conversation with Joel a couple weeks ago, he said the PS engines were made by Jackson, I don't know exactly who that is.  Took my PS 6-1 apart and (mostly) reassembled today with the help of a motorhead friend.  Very good quality generally, but it needed a good cleaning before I would dare to run it.  The valves seemed to have been dipped in some gooey black grease (Like what I've heard Cosmoline described as) that would have made them work very poorly.  No sand found, but paint and rust on lots of parts where it doesn't belong.  The reed valve couldn't move due to rust and paint, the injector pump rusty and the linkage mostly stuck, governor linkage covered with paint.  No sand found internally, but very dirty oil residue.  Valve spring rubbing on part of the head casting, much better after some cleaning.  Piston and connecting rod very nice, kind of dirty, con rod end had good clearance.  Won't get tappets out until I get the puller next week.  Have some photos, will post later.  Came with long j-bolts for mounting in cement.  Every exterior crack and crevice smeared with some kind of bondo/filler and amply painted.  Pretty much distroyed most of the gaskets getting things apart, but pretty easy to make new ones.  Still needs more cleaning, but looking pretty good.

Listeroid Engines / Re: LUBRICATION RELATED
« on: January 05, 2006, 05:29:54 PM »
Just a bit OT, but I just ran across a webpage about oils and lubrication that is relevant to all these discussions.  A couple really bright and informed guys pass on their knowlege about oils, filtration etc.  Very enlightening.  Check it out, not too long but lots of info.

Listeroid Engines / Re: Noises
« on: January 02, 2006, 05:09:33 PM »
Quinn et al,
One of the suggestions by George is to put any isolating material (rubber, etc.) between the frame and the concrete rather than between the engine and the frame.  The relationship between the engine and the generator head should be relatively rigid to prevent movement that could change alignment between the driver and the generator.  It should achieve the same effect, to decouple the vibration from the ground.

Listeroid Engines / Re: Waste heat to power absorber AC/ice box?
« on: January 01, 2006, 12:20:10 AM »
I used a Servel for ~5 years (now in temporary retirement) and it was quieter than any electric 'fridge I ever had.  The only problem I ever had with it was heating the ?"draft tube" that drew the flame sideways.  Until it got hot, the flame would burn straight up because there wasn't any draw.  Yours sounds like it has larger jets than it should - or, your propane regulator is cranked a little too high.  I'm not sure of the age of mine, pre-1950 I think.  It was originally set for natural gas - I had different jets installed for propane and used it until I got power.  It maintained a reliable ~40 degrees or so, unless the wind gusted too hard and it occasionally blew out.  It's resting in a shed until I need it again.  I've also got a little mini fridge from the '60's that works on either 12 or 120 volts.  It just has a heating element that runs the refridge part.  I'm not sure how hot it gets, but it doesn't seem all that hot.  I don't pretend to be an expert on any of this though.

Listeroid Engines / Re: >190*F Thermostat?
« on: December 31, 2005, 05:11:49 AM »
What temp are you shooting for n2toh?  200?  More?  I plan to put a "T" with two valves on each leg so that the engine can be drained in cold weather.  Seems like closing either of the valves down some would do the trick.  I have another diesel engine I plan to cover the radiator to try to achieve the same thing.  It never gets above 160, which seems way too cool.

Listeroid Engines / Re: Power Solutions 6/1 inspection...
« on: December 30, 2005, 11:14:57 PM »
Hi Joe,
The engine is ~4-5 mile drive away, the last mile is dirt/gravel with abundant ruts and it is currently raining buckets.  I likely won't get back until I find some I-beams and other structural steel for the base.  Since it is again a holiday weekend, that means it probably won't be until the middle of next week or so.  I had a problem with pulleys and other parts and tools being mailed by mistake to the freight depot that I'm trying to straighten out.  The package was there when I picked up the engine but I didn't know it at the time, and it is a 100 mile round trip, so I'm trying to arrange a pickup and reshipment.  Must be something about the time of year.  Regarding the shaft key, I didn't find one, but didn't look either.  Barely had time to uncrate it and give it a once over.  A close inspection will have to wait until we get a bit of sunshine here on the west coast.  After I have some time, I'll take some photos to post and report any findings.  Quite pleased with the overall quality though, even without any dis-assembly. 

Listeroid Engines / Re: Power Solutions 6/1 inspection...
« on: December 30, 2005, 06:28:28 PM »
Finially made connections and picked up my PS Listeroid yesterday.  Only had time to uncrate it, but am very impressed with the quality of the castings and other attachments.  The Indians are even painting it Hunter Dark Green (or something similar), like George prefers.  They got a little carried away with the paint, but the flywheels and other castings seem quite clean and sharp underneath it all.  Also included, bolted inside to the side of the crate was a two groove auxillary pulley, about a foot in diameter.  Not quite sure what to do with it, but I guess it could run any number of different pumps or generators.  This engine will be turning a ST5 gen head, so I'll have to think about what to use the extra pulley for.  More later, the sky is opening - weather people say to expect 6" of rain in the next few days.  Better than wildfires I guess.

Lister Based Generators / Re: External regulator V Governor as regulator
« on: December 27, 2005, 07:16:46 PM »
Hi Everyone,
You guys have a much more sophisticated understanding of electricity than I, so I won't try to add to this discussion.  Regarding mechanical governors however, I can add a bit (electronic governors are beyond my experience).  This info is from a 1950's Detroit Diesel Operator's Manual.  There are three basic types of mechanical governors.  All of them rely on spinning weights that adjust the fuel rack to try to maintain the engine speed within limits. 
The Limiting Speed Governor just limits the idle speed and maximum speed.  It has two sets of weights, one for high speed and one for low speed. They were used on trucks, etc. to maintain idle and prevent over-revving while allowing infinite control between for acceleration. 
The Variable Speed Governor was used on tractors, graders, etc.  I believe this is the type used on Listeroids.  It is purely mechanical and is designed to maintain a given set speed, and adjust that speed by adjusting the fuel rack when the rpm drops or increases.  As others have mentioned, it is not terrible sensitive to change, at least compared to the last one.
The Hydraulic Governor is (as its' name implies) dependant on oil pressure change to advance or retract the fuel rack, depending on rpm.  It is much more sensitive to "speed droop" than the others, and is preferred for applications where that affects performance, such as sawmills and generators.  It is also more complicated and precise, which is likely the reason it isn't found on Listeroids.
I would suppose that electronic governors are the best for limiting speed droop, but putting one on a Listeroid might be like adding a computer to a Model T - possible perhaps, but maybe beyond the purpose of its' existance?  Regarding checking the frequency and voltage of generated electricity, as many of you already know, the Killawatt is an extremely useful electronic method of checking how clean your power is.  I used it to set the frequency of my power and others have said it is likely more accurate than many meters, certainly the ones that come on the ST gen heads.

General Discussion / Re: EPA Stationary Diesel Rule
« on: December 23, 2005, 05:39:03 PM »
My local (newly remodeled) gas station sells both on and off-road diesel.  Separate pumps, but it seems like any station could sell it if they wanted to.  Possibly mine does because it is owned by a part of a logging company.  Hard to say.

Bio-diesel Fuel / Re: Has anyone seen/heard about this yet?
« on: December 22, 2005, 10:59:39 PM »
Pellets seem like a much more practical use of already existing biomass.  I have a particular interest, living where I do in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada (CA).  We have a serious (and growing, pun intended) wildfire problem with hazardous woody material.  The high value logs have a ready market, but not the brush and small diameter trees that are the problem.  Local people are seriously considering pellets, but it seems the pellets for home use must be relatively low ash content, meaning mostly clean soft woods like pine.  Hard woods like oaks produce too much ash, and only a commercial size burn unit designed to handle greater ash production can be used.  It doesn't mean they can't be used, but currently there isn't enough demand to justify making pellets from other fuels economically.  Seems like if the price of other fuels stay high enough for long enough it is likely to happen, just not yet.

Bio-diesel Fuel / Re: Has anyone seen/heard about this yet?
« on: December 22, 2005, 06:56:31 PM »
Interesting calculations lgsracer - keep in mind that there are hidden energy costs of algae found in the structures and water to grow it.  Not much water in desert lands, regardless of how much sun they get.  It seems to me the world will have a tough time just feeding itself over the next 100 years or so, growing crops for oil just doesn't seem practical IMHO.  Also, often the inherent energy used in building and maintaining the tractors is conveniently ignored in most calculations.  When added to the fuel used in cultivation and the fuel used to make and transport fertilizers, it just doesn't add up as a practical matter.  Interestingly, using poor quality lands to grow forage for traction animals is a way to have your cake and eat it too.  The soil is protected,  the land isn't appropriate for growing human food anyway, and low quality, inedible (by humans) vegetation is converted to useful power.  I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but as much as I love to play with old iron, I don't think we can ever replace fossil fuels with vegetable oil.  Just my $0.02 though, my training leads me to be very suspicious of creating something from nothing. 
Photosynthesis is known to have an efficiency rate of about 16% and if the entire mass of a crop is utilized for energy production, the overall efficiency of this chain is known to be about 1%.
  I've always seen the efficiency rate of photosynthesis as being closer to 4%.  I suppose it depends on how it is measured though.

Listeroid Engines / Re: LUBRICATION RELATED
« on: December 18, 2005, 04:37:46 AM »
I don't pretend to be any kind of authority on any of this, :-\ but, regarding your posts cujet and shipchief - George B mentions extending the sump in his CD, but he says the latest listeroid variant he is importing has a deep sump, more like the original Lister design.  He thinks the greater depth allows a deeper pool that would achieve greater settling of gunk than some of the other designs.  Until I actually see and operate a listeroid, I hesitate to give anyone advice on how to extend the sump, but George seemed to indicate it was a very straight foreward extension of the sump with any other container - seems like a propane tank or anything that holds the oil would be fine.  I think the added volume and additional settling area is the advantage more than anything else.  He seems to think that the engine rotation throws around so much oil that the pump may be superfluous anyway.  Whether that is true of the 2 cylinder versions, I don't know.   Regarding the Motorguard vs. Franz, I think they are both evolved from the same design.  Which one may be better today, again, I haven't any idea.  Is there much of a price difference between them? 

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