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Everything else / Re: Exhaust heat recovery- Exhaust to water exchanger
« on: April 09, 2008, 02:23:21 PM »
Just dropped in Bill,thought I'd start an argument.... I mean, vigourous discussion.
You're right - It's all a bit of a tradeoff. I think you'd be better off using the lister coolant circuit for heat when the engine's running and this kind of thing for when it's off.
The advantage with something that doesn't use water as storage is that you can run it at higher temps above ambient, which makes it easier to move the (limited) heat about later. But as others have mentioned, it's all wasted heat otherwise. It's fairly low-cost and once setup it should be relatively low-maintenance soot-wise with the gaps between the aggregate.
My concern with direct water/exhaust interaction Jens is that you will tend to lose a lot of water (and heat) as water vapour out the exhaust due to the large, warm-ish surface area of the aggregate promoting evaporation. And having seen water-based exhaust scrubbers in use in underground mining equipment - to say the water will get dirty is an understatement! There should be enough gaps between chunks in the aggregate that sooting up will take a long time.....
I'll post my back-of-envelope calcs :
Pick a material that can withstand the temps and has a reasonably high specific heat.
A list of some typical values can be found here.
Brick is good for simplicity at 1kJ/kg.K (Sorry,metric only!)
So, for each degree kelvin you heat a 1kg brick, you need to put in 1 kilojoule of energy.
Say we have.... 250kg of bricks, thus 250kJ needed to warm the bricks 1 degree.
You arrange the setup so the exhaust passes through the bricks and exits out the other side.
The bricks are at a starting temperature of 320 degrees kelvin. ( approx 50 degrees C - You used the engine yesterday)
You run your engine at load and conservatively output a constant 3kW of heat out the exhaust with at temp of, say 700 kelvin. Passing the exhaust through the bricks, you manage to cool the exhaust temp by half, to 350 kelvin , giving a net input into the bricks of 1.5kW.
You run your engine for 8 hours, charging your batteries, using your tools, warming your little arctic hut nicely with the engine coolant and eventually shut the engine off for the day.
The definition of a watt being 1 joule per second and 8 hours at 1.5kW being 8 * 3600 seconds * 1.5kJ gives you 43.2 megajoules, going into 250kg of bricks that need 250kJ to raise them 1 degree K. So, dividing 43.2MJ / 250kJ gives you an increase of about 170 degrees K, to finally wind up with hot bricks at 320K+170K = 490K, or about 220 degrees C.
You then run a heat exchanger loop around the outside of the bricks, going into your hut and a small radiator at the foot of your bed. Deliberately making use of the poor transfer from the small contact area on the round copper pipe on the outside of the drum, you manage to cool the bricks by that 170K over the next 16 hours. Working your 43.2MJ of heat energy over that time period (57600 seconds), you get 43,200,000/57,600 or an average 750 watts output from your radiator over that period - enough to keep your toes warm, anyway. If you dick about with the heat exchanger, you could get twice as much for half the time, etc.
At the end of the day, obviously the heat has tapered off from the initial output, but the bricks, being at 50 degrees C final temp, are still at a relatively warm temp above ambient and some useful heat transfer with still take place to some extent.
Yes, there are a number of unknowns - the main one being heat transfer to the bricks. Not only is it difficult to quantify, it will taper off as the bricks heat up to exhaust temp. Too much brick and it won't get hot enough above ambient to make the next heat transfer stage easy (low gradient heat and all that, as guy_f is fond of saying). Not enough brick and it will all reach exhaust temp too quickly, leaving wasted heat going out the exhaust.A balanced mass to match your typical engine runtime is needed. You've also got misc losses like through the brick insulation, and you'd rob heat from your hot bricks if you drop your engine to idle for any length of time before shutting off.
But, it's something to tinker with.
You're right - It's all a bit of a tradeoff. I think you'd be better off using the lister coolant circuit for heat when the engine's running and this kind of thing for when it's off.
The advantage with something that doesn't use water as storage is that you can run it at higher temps above ambient, which makes it easier to move the (limited) heat about later. But as others have mentioned, it's all wasted heat otherwise. It's fairly low-cost and once setup it should be relatively low-maintenance soot-wise with the gaps between the aggregate.
My concern with direct water/exhaust interaction Jens is that you will tend to lose a lot of water (and heat) as water vapour out the exhaust due to the large, warm-ish surface area of the aggregate promoting evaporation. And having seen water-based exhaust scrubbers in use in underground mining equipment - to say the water will get dirty is an understatement! There should be enough gaps between chunks in the aggregate that sooting up will take a long time.....
I'll post my back-of-envelope calcs :
Pick a material that can withstand the temps and has a reasonably high specific heat.
A list of some typical values can be found here.
Brick is good for simplicity at 1kJ/kg.K (Sorry,metric only!)
So, for each degree kelvin you heat a 1kg brick, you need to put in 1 kilojoule of energy.
Say we have.... 250kg of bricks, thus 250kJ needed to warm the bricks 1 degree.
You arrange the setup so the exhaust passes through the bricks and exits out the other side.
The bricks are at a starting temperature of 320 degrees kelvin. ( approx 50 degrees C - You used the engine yesterday)
You run your engine at load and conservatively output a constant 3kW of heat out the exhaust with at temp of, say 700 kelvin. Passing the exhaust through the bricks, you manage to cool the exhaust temp by half, to 350 kelvin , giving a net input into the bricks of 1.5kW.
You run your engine for 8 hours, charging your batteries, using your tools, warming your little arctic hut nicely with the engine coolant and eventually shut the engine off for the day.
The definition of a watt being 1 joule per second and 8 hours at 1.5kW being 8 * 3600 seconds * 1.5kJ gives you 43.2 megajoules, going into 250kg of bricks that need 250kJ to raise them 1 degree K. So, dividing 43.2MJ / 250kJ gives you an increase of about 170 degrees K, to finally wind up with hot bricks at 320K+170K = 490K, or about 220 degrees C.
You then run a heat exchanger loop around the outside of the bricks, going into your hut and a small radiator at the foot of your bed. Deliberately making use of the poor transfer from the small contact area on the round copper pipe on the outside of the drum, you manage to cool the bricks by that 170K over the next 16 hours. Working your 43.2MJ of heat energy over that time period (57600 seconds), you get 43,200,000/57,600 or an average 750 watts output from your radiator over that period - enough to keep your toes warm, anyway. If you dick about with the heat exchanger, you could get twice as much for half the time, etc.
At the end of the day, obviously the heat has tapered off from the initial output, but the bricks, being at 50 degrees C final temp, are still at a relatively warm temp above ambient and some useful heat transfer with still take place to some extent.
Yes, there are a number of unknowns - the main one being heat transfer to the bricks. Not only is it difficult to quantify, it will taper off as the bricks heat up to exhaust temp. Too much brick and it won't get hot enough above ambient to make the next heat transfer stage easy (low gradient heat and all that, as guy_f is fond of saying). Not enough brick and it will all reach exhaust temp too quickly, leaving wasted heat going out the exhaust.A balanced mass to match your typical engine runtime is needed. You've also got misc losses like through the brick insulation, and you'd rob heat from your hot bricks if you drop your engine to idle for any length of time before shutting off.
But, it's something to tinker with.