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Messages - listeroil

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181
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Generator head from a SOM problem
« on: October 19, 2006, 10:14:19 PM »
The 24 volt starting circuit is the big fat wire that comes out of the alternator body that is battery positive.
Another big fat wire connects to earth on the alternator casing this wire is battery negative.
Connect these 2 wires to a 24 volt battery and your alternator should spin.


The AC is supplied from the slip rings one of them is connected to directly to earth this wire is 230volt neutral
The other slip ring bush supplies the 230volt live.
To get the set to produce AC you need to energise the main field winding from the DC part of the circuit
This is done by taking power from the positive DC brush and feeding it through a big adjustable resistor(15 ohms 4amps


One of the dc brushes is connected to earth
the other brush

182
Listeroid Engines / Re: Crankcase studs too short?
« on: September 15, 2006, 12:24:35 AM »
The thread on british lister main bearing studs  is 1/2 inch whitworth (BSW) 12 TPI.

The threaded portion of the stud that goes into the crankcase is 1/2 inch long ie 6 threads even though the crankcase is 1 inch thick. The nut that goes on the stud is 1/2 inch wide.

I am not sure what threads are on the indian engines as I haven't got one but  5/16 x 22 tpi on the oil dipper is 5/16ths BSF thread. Which is the same as the british ones. It seem like the Indian engines pretty much copied the british design.
All the threads on british lister cs engines are either BSW or BSF. This is a table BSW and BSF threads per inch and the link below is a good description of the british standard system.


BSW       TPI            BSF     TPI
1/4          20            1/4       26
5/16        18            5/16     22
3/8          16            3/8       20
7/16        14            7/16     18
1/2          12            1/2       16
9/16        12            9/16     16
5/8          11            5/8       14
11/16      11            11/16    14
3/4          10            3/4       12

http://www.timebus.co.uk/rlh/whitworth.htm

 In Britain, road vehicles, aeroplanes and  machinery until the 1970s used British Standard thread forms. The following families of threads existed;
miniature sizes known as British Association (BA). BA size numbers are in reverse. The lower the number, the larger the bolt size, so 0 BA is the largest and 16 BA is the smallest. BA sizes are mainly used in electrical equipment.
 
coarse threads known as British Standard Whitworth (BSW)
 
fine threads known as British Standard Fine (BSF)
 
The U.S. equivalents are the Unified Thread System formed by ANSI/NATO in 1948. These standards were agreed between Britain, Canada and the US and were based on the previous American National standard, except with rounded roots and optionally rounded crests. This composed the following:
miniature sizes below 1/4 inch (UNM), with roots from an old American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) standard
coarse threads (UNC)
fine threads (UNF), with roots from old Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) and ASME standards

Whitworth threads are used for most mechanical equipment in the RLH.

With the UNF/UNC system the number stamped on the wrench or socket is the dimension of the hexagonal bolt head measured across the flats (AF = Across Flats); so the wrench required for a 1/4 UNC bolt would have be stamped 7/16. Whitworth wrench sizes, however, indicate the size of the bolt, i.e., a wrench required for the equivalent 1/4 BSW bolt will have 1/4W stamped on it.

Whitworth heads are NOT the same size as the equivalent UNC/UNF - they are larger. For this reason, it is imperative that a set of Whitworth wrenches are purchased before working on any antique British machinery. Otherwise, expect rounded-off heads and busted knuckles, trademarks of the careless craftsman.

Whitworth wrenches and sockets are available through clubs that cater to British cars. It's also a good idea to get a set of taps and dies to fix the attempts of those who have gone before you in the vain attempt to convert, intentionally or otherwise, to SAE format.

Another area that causes confusion is the fact that some BSW/BSF nuts can be screwed on UNF/UNC bolts and vice-versa. Under NO circumstances should this be practiced. Most of the coarse threads share the same threads per inch, which means BSW nuts can be screwed onto UNC bolts and vice-versa (the exception to this being ½ inch, of which the BSW size has 12 threads per inch whereas the UNC size has 13). Whitworth and UNC/UNF thread forms differ greatly, the primary difference being the thread angle. Consequently, if these fasteners are interchanged, considerable loss of holding force, fatigue resistance and strength will result.

Some outfits in the US have been known to sell so-called Whitworth hardware, which has SAE sized hex heads mixed with Whitworth thread forms. This really only serves to cause confusion and increase the risk of the wrong equipment being used in future. Fully correct Whitworth fasteners are available in the US.
 
Abbreviation    Name              Introduced       Diameter/ Range      Thread angle, degrees    Notes
   l
   
BSW  British Standard Whitworth     1841              1/16 to 2.5 inches                     55                  Coarse
   
BSF   British Standard Fine                1908                3/16 to 1 inch                      55                       Fine
      
UNC   Unified National Coarse        1918                0.05 to 1 inch                      60
      
UNF   Unified National Fine               1918                0.05 to 1 inch                      60

If you wanted more thread engagement in the crankcase threads you could use 1/2 inch BSW high tensile steel bolts of the correct length. These are available here in the UK for worldwide mail order at (http://www.namrick.co.uk/browse.asp?PCID=7) and other UK suppliers. Helicoil kits are also available in BSW and BSF sizes overe here.

Mick

      


183
Listeroid Engines / Re: Right Cam Bushing
« on: September 12, 2006, 10:11:29 PM »
I have a genuine  lister 6-1 & 8-1 engine in bits at the moment and they both have the groove at the bottom of the right camshaft bush.

I would post photos if I could work out how to do it.

Mick

184
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: My Lister SOM Web Page
« on: August 28, 2006, 02:18:16 AM »
The big white thing is the fuel control solonoid it serves two purposes one to set the engine on compression and two to open the pump up to full rack. it operates as soon as the detection circiut is energised.(not when AC is produced)
The other wired thing is a heavy duty microswitch which is operated off the governor arm. When the engine reaches about 75% revs the switch operates the plant contactor in the control cubicle that goes on the wall to
switch off the detection circuit
switch off the starting circuit
switch on the 24 volt battery charging circuit
switch on AC output
The engine switch also inserts the economy resistance in series with the fuel control solonoid to reduce power to it whilst the engine is running
The bulk of the controlling switchgear is housed in a dust proof cubicle arranged for wall mounting. Exceptions are the starting contactor, high-low charge switch, charging resistance and field rheostat which are mounted in a sheet steel housing above the alternator.
I will post some photos of the control box and the top box tomorrow.

Mick

185
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« on: August 25, 2006, 12:36:28 AM »
The 1983 Lister Instruction  Book No103 on 6-1 &8-1 engines states this about oil.

Naturally aspirated diesel engines must be run on H.D. Diesel lubricating oils to specifications equal or better than DEF2101D or BS1905 type B or MIL-L-46152 orAP1 CD. Straight mineral oils are not suitable, neither are of less detergency than specified.

MIL-L-2104B or MIL-L-2104C or AP1 CD oils are recomemded for engines running at a high load factor, particularly in conjunction with high ambient temperatures. They must also be used if the sulphur content exceeds 0.6%.

Series 111 oils must be used when oil changes are made at periods longer than 250 hours.

Multigrade oils must exceed specifications MIL-L-2104B or MIL-l-2104C.

The oil should be suitable for oil changes every 250 hours without undue oxidation, with sump temperatures reaching 150C in tropical climates under extremely severe applications, and 120C under normal applications.

Viscosity
The viscosity of the lubricating oil must be as follows--
For starting temperatures--
Below -15C                      SAE. 5W
Between -15C and +4C     SAE. 10W
Between  4C and 30C       SAE. 20/20W
Above 30C                      SAE. 30W

 
The oil I use in my 8-1 engined 4.5KW Start-O-Matic is HDX 30 to MIL-L-2104B spec. and this seems better than the multigrade I used to use. I don't use as much oil as I did when using multigrade. I run for 8 hours a day every day and now I only need to top up once a week.
 
 Mick

186
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« on: August 24, 2006, 11:50:31 PM »
The 1983 Lister Instruction  Book No103 on 6-1 &8-1 engines states this about oil.

Naturally aspirated diesel engines must be run on H.D. Diesel lubricating oils to specifications equal or better than DEF2101D or BS1905 type B or MIL-L-46152 orAP1 CD. Straight mineral oils are not suitable, neither are of less detergency than specified.

MIL-L-2104B or MIL-L-2104C or AP1 CD oils are recomemded for engines running at a high load factor, particularly in conjunction with high ambient temperatures. They must also be used if the sulphur content exceeds 0.6%.

Series 111 oils must be used when oil changes are made at periods longer than 250 hours.

Multi grade oils must exceed specifications MIL-L-2104B or MIL-l-2104C.

The oil should be suitable for oil changes every 250 hours without undue oxidation, with sump temperatures reaching 150C in tropical climates under extremely severe applications, and 120C under normal applications.

Viscosity

187
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« on: August 21, 2006, 12:25:29 AM »
I only have experiance with single cylinder engines and have never even seen a twin cylinder engine. I do not know about Indian engines, it seems like they made a few modifications from the Lister design. It probably depends what type of con rod you have.  All the con rods I have seen 7 in total have solid dippers, 5 of them flattened with a knife edge on both edges and they cut the oil edgeways. The other 2 dippers one was flattened and cut the oil broardside and didn't seem to use any more oil than my other engine. The last one was a 5/16 BSF set screw cut down to length and i've never seen that engine run. All the con rods have 2 holes above the big end bearings.
My only information about twins is out of the Lister manuals that are years old so I am not in a position to comment about them from first hand experiance. however I do think you will be fine with the solid dipper because my one which cuts the oil sideways throws so much oil around that everything gets lots of oil.
As far as can understand the manual about the scoop dippers is that it faces away from the crankcase door ie opposite and as such would force the oil into the big end bearing.

All the best Mick 

188
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« on: August 20, 2006, 01:02:15 AM »
re con rod dippers. The thread on the 6-1 and 8-1 Lister engines is 5/16 BSF(British standard fine). I do not know what thread is on the twin cylinder engines. The con rod part number is different for the twin cylinder engines acording to my 1975 Lister parts list. The 1983 Lister 8-1 & 16-2 engine manual says this about con rod dippers.

The dipper fitted to the 8-1 & 6-1 engines is flattened in section and should cut the oil edgeways and NOT broardside on.The hollow dipper in the twin cylinder engines is a scoop, the opening of which is turned away from the crankcase door. The  big end bearings are lubricated from below by a hollow dipper in the twin cylinder engines, and by oil holes from above in the 6-1 & 8-1 engines.

Mick

189
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: SOM Gen heads, any idea on wiring?
« on: August 06, 2006, 10:54:59 PM »
I might well be able to help you sort your startomatic wiring it depends which alternator you have it seems like lister made lots of differant startomatic alternator heads. If you let me know how many wires come out of the top of the genhead and how many dc brushes the ones that go the commutator, what the kw rating on the brass plate says and also the shunt regulator value which is on another brass plate on the gen head  Also do you have the top box that goes on the genhead because this contains essential kit that you need to make it produce 230 volts ie the shunt regulator resistor.
let me know these details and I will try and help you out.
Mick


190
General Discussion / Re: Spending money again..
« on: June 19, 2006, 10:20:45 PM »
Guy
Just been reading your post about the price of 42mm copper elbows you were ripped off. The firm that I use charge 2.32 plus the dreaded for a 42mm female copper x female copper end feed elbow part number 9182 Their website is bes.co.uk they charge a fiver delivery but if you get your order in before 4 pm the bits arrive the next day check them out next time you need plumbing fittings they have a good selection of bsp threaded fittings in stainless brass and mild steel all at good prices. Hope this is of help to you.

Mick

191
Listeroid Engines / Re: Upping the HP on a 6/1
« on: June 19, 2006, 08:12:16 PM »
I dont know if this information is of any use but it comes from a genuine 1971 lister generator brochure.
              Fuel consumption LB/BHP/HR =0.5
This is for the 6.1 and 8.1 engines it comes out of a genuine lister brochure can we believe these figures

Mick

192
Listeroid Engines / Re: SPEED CONTROL
« on: May 02, 2006, 02:21:09 AM »
Good thinking i hadnt thought of that engine
cheers Mick

193
Listeroid Engines / Re: SPEED CONTROL
« on: May 02, 2006, 01:26:23 AM »
Have you considered a cruise control unit off an automobile it has a linear actuator a computer to operate it and picks up its signals from the speedo or rev counter electronic pulses a magnet or 2 could be glued onto the alternator pulley and a hall effect switch used to provide pulses for the triggerwire to the computer these units are very tough they are made to live in an engine compartment

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