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181
General Discussion / Re: My God there is some crap going on here.
« on: November 01, 2006, 11:32:06 PM »
Hi Guy

Did it never occur to you that the shut down delay on start-o-matic sets after no load wasn't in case farmer turned another light on, but to equalise the temps inside the engine before shutting down?


Here again you show your ignorance. What delay on shut down. You disconnect load and the fuel control solonoid releases under spring pressure closes the rack and inserts the decompressor. The set takes about 1 min to run down and is left in a decompressed postion ready to start next time. Is this enough time to equalise the temperature in the engine? A pure figment of your imagination there is no shut down delay.


start-o-matics are rarer than rocking horse shit stateside, you may have noticed that is why everyone is buying chinese heads to go on their listerOIDS
there are also some pretty smart people in these forums who can read the s-o-m schematics and cobble together an electronic equivalent for less than it would cost to buy and ship over a set of s-o-m mechanical control boxes, and get a more electrically efficient system out of it to boot


You miss the point again. I dont suggest that people buy startomatic boxes from here to convert thier listeroids. What I said was if you are buying a startomatic in the UK make sure you get it with all the bits. Whats wrong with that?  Ask Andy what he would prefer.
US purchasers of UK startomatics want to get the best bit of kit they can. Why would they buy a lister in the UK and then cobble together a modern equivalent, when they could get one with all the correct original bits If they ask the correct questions.
Also what point is there in having a more electrically efficient startomatic system. Its a generator and the original system only takes about 10 watts to operate it. Why bother about better efficiency its only 10 watts on a 2500 + watt generator who cares.


I you had a clue you would realise that the rare thing to happen with s-o-m sets is to put two side by side and find them to be identical...... andy on here bought one, different alternator to mine, no control boxes but different alternator ergo different boxes, my mate bought one, another different alternator and another set of different boxes, binnie has just bought one, yet another different alternator and different set of control boxes, thats four bought this year I know of, and no two the same.



I was talking about your bullshit control box not other peoples. But if you want to go there.

Andys generator  a 1954 somac with a type N alternator  no top box or startomatic box
Binnies generator   is a October 1940 war time generator and a lot earlier design
Your Mates I cannot coment on You give no details year, alternator type,or power output 2.5kw 3.0kw or 4.5kw?
My  first      2.5 kw SOMAC  1951 with a type K alternator plus cast aluminium startomatic box
My  second 2.5 kw SOMAC  1956 with a type N alternator  plus cast aluminium startomatic box
Your generator is a 1956 SOMAC with a type N alternator plus  cast aluminium startomatic box

Andys alternator IS a N type  the same as yours. My second SOMAC same year as yours same N type alternator all of these machines are of a similar age and operate on the same control gear.
My 1956 2.5kw startomatic box has got the same internal componants as the pictures in the 1952 startomatic manual which you offered to this group also the 1951 unit has got the startomatic box with the same componants. Yours look nothing like mine or the ones in your manual or any of the other same style cast ali boxes that Ive had the pleasure examining. Please post pictures of the inside of your control cubical again I noticed they wernt there when I went for a look. Binnies generator was produced in 1940 during the war the control gear on his set is of an older design and not really relavent to this type of cast ali box.
In 1958 lister introduced the 8/1 engined 4.5kw startomatic and the 6/1 engined 3kw startomatic Both these machines use the steel control cubical and this is the same one that was used untill the end of production. 

More soon  Mick


182
General Discussion / Re: My God there is some crap going on here.
« on: October 30, 2006, 01:19:33 AM »
Who the hell do you think you are. Just a self opinionated typist you dont know what you are talking about. You claim to be an expert on all things lister. You only have a project engine which you are playing with. I run mine for power every day. I think you are full of bullshit. Ive been reading your posts with interest since I found this site and you purport to be an expert if you are so clever why dont you contribute to the UK lister forum we in the UK need as much info as possable most of the lister mechanics who worked on these machines are retired or dead. For your information the method of testing the mainbearing with a prybar was passed down to me by a time served lister engineer who serviced generators on dartmoor.  The reason he said CS engined startomatics had gone out of favour was that they didnt produce enough power and spares were very expensive most people wanted more kilowatts. The guy I bought the startomatic from was not a mate. It was an advert in ad trader the spare engine was in the corner and looked like it had been there for years. I didnt say you could buy an engine for 500 quid 5 years ago you deduced that. It was probably nearer to 10 he was then running an air cooled twin 7kw startomatic and had been for a few years. The 4.5 was just his standby unit.He sold it because he had just got an inverter and battery setup and had power 24/7.
 
Anyway you are a nasty person  to make personal attacks. Threats to hit me with a crow bar who do you think you are.I contribute to this forum not to blow my own trumpet you made this personal.

You write crap  Nortons never had jampot suspension AJS and Matchless did. Fact

Where do you get 3/8 UNC treads on a lister. Answer nowhere all the threads on lister cs engines are either BSW or BSF so where do you get off on posting on this site that the threads on listers are UNC even the thread anglle is wrong so you are a vandle join the club. I seem to remember ypu singing the joys of using your dads old taps to clean the threads on your repared cylinder. Do you get off on passing false information.

And another I saw your pictures of your startomatic a while ago they are not there now Whats all that crap in your control cubicle Ive seen a few over the years and ive never seen one like yours I think you put some crap in it to make your pictures look good the kit in lister boxes is much more substantial. It dosnt look anything like the ones in the manual that you made available.

Also on your mig welding of the cylinder anyone could tack little bits of chicken shit all round a crack then grind it down with a grinderette and make it look nice. You say a time served welder looked at your job and said it was good How did he test it xray ultrasonic no he just looked.  It cannot be a safe repair cast iron and steel do not weld together How many hours have you run your engine like this with a decent load on it. I bet you havent even done that.

The square bar on the valve lifter assembly is in the wrong position its should be on the top hole on the bell crank where the 2 spings fit. IF you are going to contribute get your facts correct


Mick  

183
General Discussion / Re: My God there is some crap going on here.
« on: October 29, 2006, 01:53:22 AM »
Oh I am so sorry to have offended the almighty

Insert Quote
I got my first 2.5KW Lister startomatic 5 years ago and had no documentation or experiance of these bits of kit.

What else am I suposed to check if I have no knowledge of these particular engines
Oil I checked it
Water I filled the tank
Connected 2 batteries

It had been passed to me as a working bit of kit I didnt know about hand priming the oil system and I siezed the engine. I had never seen a generator like this before it looked more like a steam engine to me. I didnt have lots of clever people to advise me I had zero information about them It used to belong to a mate of mine and had been working reliably untill his death. His son lent it to me about 6 monthes after it had last run What more could I have checked  

How do you tell if the pumps not working when the engines running?

I posted my information so that other people might not make the same mistake as i made.

It is totaly gutting when you sieze your new generator. I actually needed a generator I live off grid. I have been running a startomatic everyday for the last 5 years 8 hours a day weekdays and 12 hours on weekends and they are most wonderfull bits of kit. which I have found very reliable.

I know alot more about startomatics now and allways check the oil pump is working now I also test the mainbearings with a 4 foot prybar under the flywheels check the big end same method through the crankcase door I also clean out the sump and fill with fresh HD 30 diesel oil. I havent made the same mistake again

Anyway 2 points to make
The genuine lister oil system is not failsafe.
Lister crankshafts break whether bolted to a concrete block or not.

 (I really don't think you, many other people here, or people who write "many texts" understand the Lister lube system. THERE IS NO FAILURE MODE FOR SPLASH LUBE, OR FOR OIL RING LUBE. Got that, it can NEVER go wrong or stop working, as long as there is oil in the crankcase. As long as there is oil in the crankcase, there is sufficient lubrication to achieve near idefinite lifespans at full load. The KISS principle taken to the extreme. Do you not get this, Lister were quite aware of other methods of lubrication, but NOTHING even comes close to the simplicity and resilience of splash and oil ring, if the motor is turning and it has oil, then splash and oil ring will lube everything, there is literally nothing to go wrong and nothing to service or wear out, EVER.)

Point 1 It does not matter whether I am a vandel or not If the oil pump fails on a lister single cylinder CS engine it will sieze this is fact I have done it It cost me good and it hurt at the time.  I am not bothered about mt ego I admit I am a dickhead and honestly admitted what I did. It takes bottle to admit you messed up but I did. What I dont like is statements like above which state opinions as if gospel.

Point 2  Crankshafts break. I only passed on the information because the engine had still been running generating electricity and only when it came to shut off time did it become apparant. I think this is amazing. The set was regluarly serviced and not in bad condition the crank just broke in service and it could have been running for 8 hours like that. The guy didnt know he just got another engine the next day. This was in excess of 5 years ago and his secondhand engine cost him 500 quid from his local generator dealer  I personaly do not deduce anything from this just that cranks break whether bolted down to a concrefe block or not.

I thought a forum was for civilised conversation not personal attacks all I am doing is sharing my personal expierance. I have been running these things for 5 years now and have learnt the hard way. They have only become popular again recently
5 years ago there wasnt a wealth of information available and spares parts very expensive if vou could get them. Now I have decent documentation and Indian spares. Thanks to the  popularity of listeroids in the US this information is now abundant.2 years ago if you googled lister cs or startomatic you got very little information now there pages and pages. So thank you US cousins. You have done more to promote listers than we in the UK.

I am running a fully up and running 8/1 engined 4.5KW start o matic as I type this This has a totally functioning startomatic system which I use to start the set with  I use this system because it charges the batteries as well. It has taken me years to get  the startomatic working properly.The second one I got had melted the charging contacts in the control box and I managed to get another control box  I connected that up and it vaporised the same contacts again.
Ive got the lister manual now and the contacts need setting up very carefully or else you blow up your contacts. The reason I open myself up to abuse is that I dont want any of you US buyers to make the same mistake as I made.
Before you first start them up make sure the contacts operate in the correct fashion. There is a manual for the 4.5 KW startomatic on the Lister   CSOG · Putting Lister CS Engines back to Work  UK forum this has the contact timming sequence in it and if you become a member you can download it

Anyway good luck to any of you US buyers getting startomatics from the UK most of  them I have come across have been quite worn and if you are thinking of buying a startomatic over here make sure its got all its boxes top box on generator and wallbox dont buy if they havent got these and even then ask for photos of inside the boxes if the contacts have burnt out they are a real bitch to get.

Anyway I am going to bed now I will post the engine number of the first engine that I siezed just in case I decide to sell it in the future. So people can avoid it like the plague if it comes on the market in the future.

Mick (real name)




184
General Discussion / Re: My God there is some crap going on here.
« on: October 27, 2006, 09:45:53 PM »
I got my first 2.5KW Lister startomatic 5 years ago and had no documentation or experiance of these bits of kit.
I got the set home checked the engine oil connected up 2 batteries and fired it up. It ran for a good 6 hours then I switched it off. Next morning I tried to remotely start it and it just made a loud squeeling noise the engine was siezed solid. What had happened was that the oil pump plunger had been pushed down and stayed down and didnt pump any oil around the engine for 6 hours  the trough below the crankshaft ran out of oil because it wasnt geting refilled from the main bearings and the crankshaft was siezed to the main bearings. I couldnt get the engine dismantled and the price of just 2 main bearings and 1 bigend bearing was 250GBP let alone any work that might need doing to the crank.
 
There was a 4.5KW startomatic advertised in the local paper for 350GBP so I went and looked at it Included in the deal I got was a spare engine this engine had got a broken crank and had still been running when the guy switched the set off but was making a funny noise. This engine was bolted to a concrete plinth and the crank broke.

I ran the 4.5KW for 8 to 12 hours a day for 4 years every day and never bolted it down to anything it never moved at all just stayed where it was and never broke its crank

I am rebuilding 2 4.5KW startomatics at the moment for my own use with Indian spares and I for one am delighted with the quality and price of the indian spares time will tell but they certainly look good. These engines will be bolted to concrete blocks.

Anyway 2 points to make
The genuine lister oil system is not failsafe.
Lister crankshafts break whether bolted to a concrete block or not.

Mick

185
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Generator head from a SOM problem
« on: October 20, 2006, 12:05:48 AM »
The 24 volt starting circuit is the big fat wire that comes out of the alternator body that is battery positive.
Another big fat wire connects to earth on the alternator casing this wire is battery negative.
Connect these 2 wires to a 24 volt battery and your alternator should spin.


The AC is supplied from the slip rings one of them is connected to directly to earth this wire is 230volt neutral
The other slip ring bush supplies the 230volt live.
To get the set to produce AC you need to energise the main field winding from the DC part of the circuit
This is done by taking power from the positive DC brush and feeding it through a big adjustable resistor(15 ohms 4amps on my 2.5kw head) in to the main field winding. The other DC brush is connected to earth.
This should make the set produce AC adjust the big resistor to set the low load voltage

The auxilliary field windings adjust the AC at high load and the set will work without them connected but voltage might drop a bit at full load

The fuel control solonoid can be manualy operated by pulling back the bell crank lever and jamming a piece of wood in between it and the top of the coil case. Just pull the bit of wood out when you want to stop your set.

Do you actually want to get the unit working as a startomatic or just electric start, battery charging and run.
If you only want the electric start and charge and run option this can be easily achieved with a minimum of reasonably easy to get componants that could all fit into the top box.

 I hope this info is of some use I would post some photos  and wiring diagrams if I could work out how to do it.

Mick


186
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Generator head from a SOM problem
« on: October 19, 2006, 10:14:19 PM »
The 24 volt starting circuit is the big fat wire that comes out of the alternator body that is battery positive.
Another big fat wire connects to earth on the alternator casing this wire is battery negative.
Connect these 2 wires to a 24 volt battery and your alternator should spin.


The AC is supplied from the slip rings one of them is connected to directly to earth this wire is 230volt neutral
The other slip ring bush supplies the 230volt live.
To get the set to produce AC you need to energise the main field winding from the DC part of the circuit
This is done by taking power from the positive DC brush and feeding it through a big adjustable resistor(15 ohms 4amps


One of the dc brushes is connected to earth
the other brush

187
Listeroid Engines / Re: Crankcase studs too short?
« on: September 15, 2006, 12:24:35 AM »
The thread on british lister main bearing studs  is 1/2 inch whitworth (BSW) 12 TPI.

The threaded portion of the stud that goes into the crankcase is 1/2 inch long ie 6 threads even though the crankcase is 1 inch thick. The nut that goes on the stud is 1/2 inch wide.

I am not sure what threads are on the indian engines as I haven't got one but  5/16 x 22 tpi on the oil dipper is 5/16ths BSF thread. Which is the same as the british ones. It seem like the Indian engines pretty much copied the british design.
All the threads on british lister cs engines are either BSW or BSF. This is a table BSW and BSF threads per inch and the link below is a good description of the british standard system.


BSW       TPI            BSF     TPI
1/4          20            1/4       26
5/16        18            5/16     22
3/8          16            3/8       20
7/16        14            7/16     18
1/2          12            1/2       16
9/16        12            9/16     16
5/8          11            5/8       14
11/16      11            11/16    14
3/4          10            3/4       12

http://www.timebus.co.uk/rlh/whitworth.htm

 In Britain, road vehicles, aeroplanes and  machinery until the 1970s used British Standard thread forms. The following families of threads existed;
miniature sizes known as British Association (BA). BA size numbers are in reverse. The lower the number, the larger the bolt size, so 0 BA is the largest and 16 BA is the smallest. BA sizes are mainly used in electrical equipment.
 
coarse threads known as British Standard Whitworth (BSW)
 
fine threads known as British Standard Fine (BSF)
 
The U.S. equivalents are the Unified Thread System formed by ANSI/NATO in 1948. These standards were agreed between Britain, Canada and the US and were based on the previous American National standard, except with rounded roots and optionally rounded crests. This composed the following:
miniature sizes below 1/4 inch (UNM), with roots from an old American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) standard
coarse threads (UNC)
fine threads (UNF), with roots from old Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) and ASME standards

Whitworth threads are used for most mechanical equipment in the RLH.

With the UNF/UNC system the number stamped on the wrench or socket is the dimension of the hexagonal bolt head measured across the flats (AF = Across Flats); so the wrench required for a 1/4 UNC bolt would have be stamped 7/16. Whitworth wrench sizes, however, indicate the size of the bolt, i.e., a wrench required for the equivalent 1/4 BSW bolt will have 1/4W stamped on it.

Whitworth heads are NOT the same size as the equivalent UNC/UNF - they are larger. For this reason, it is imperative that a set of Whitworth wrenches are purchased before working on any antique British machinery. Otherwise, expect rounded-off heads and busted knuckles, trademarks of the careless craftsman.

Whitworth wrenches and sockets are available through clubs that cater to British cars. It's also a good idea to get a set of taps and dies to fix the attempts of those who have gone before you in the vain attempt to convert, intentionally or otherwise, to SAE format.

Another area that causes confusion is the fact that some BSW/BSF nuts can be screwed on UNF/UNC bolts and vice-versa. Under NO circumstances should this be practiced. Most of the coarse threads share the same threads per inch, which means BSW nuts can be screwed onto UNC bolts and vice-versa (the exception to this being ½ inch, of which the BSW size has 12 threads per inch whereas the UNC size has 13). Whitworth and UNC/UNF thread forms differ greatly, the primary difference being the thread angle. Consequently, if these fasteners are interchanged, considerable loss of holding force, fatigue resistance and strength will result.

Some outfits in the US have been known to sell so-called Whitworth hardware, which has SAE sized hex heads mixed with Whitworth thread forms. This really only serves to cause confusion and increase the risk of the wrong equipment being used in future. Fully correct Whitworth fasteners are available in the US.
 
Abbreviation    Name              Introduced       Diameter/ Range      Thread angle, degrees    Notes
   l
   
BSW  British Standard Whitworth     1841              1/16 to 2.5 inches                     55                  Coarse
   
BSF   British Standard Fine                1908                3/16 to 1 inch                      55                       Fine
      
UNC   Unified National Coarse        1918                0.05 to 1 inch                      60
      
UNF   Unified National Fine               1918                0.05 to 1 inch                      60

If you wanted more thread engagement in the crankcase threads you could use 1/2 inch BSW high tensile steel bolts of the correct length. These are available here in the UK for worldwide mail order at (http://www.namrick.co.uk/browse.asp?PCID=7) and other UK suppliers. Helicoil kits are also available in BSW and BSF sizes overe here.

Mick

      


188
Listeroid Engines / Re: Right Cam Bushing
« on: September 12, 2006, 10:11:29 PM »
I have a genuine  lister 6-1 & 8-1 engine in bits at the moment and they both have the groove at the bottom of the right camshaft bush.

I would post photos if I could work out how to do it.

Mick

189
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: My Lister SOM Web Page
« on: August 28, 2006, 02:18:16 AM »
The big white thing is the fuel control solonoid it serves two purposes one to set the engine on compression and two to open the pump up to full rack. it operates as soon as the detection circiut is energised.(not when AC is produced)
The other wired thing is a heavy duty microswitch which is operated off the governor arm. When the engine reaches about 75% revs the switch operates the plant contactor in the control cubicle that goes on the wall to
switch off the detection circuit
switch off the starting circuit
switch on the 24 volt battery charging circuit
switch on AC output
The engine switch also inserts the economy resistance in series with the fuel control solonoid to reduce power to it whilst the engine is running
The bulk of the controlling switchgear is housed in a dust proof cubicle arranged for wall mounting. Exceptions are the starting contactor, high-low charge switch, charging resistance and field rheostat which are mounted in a sheet steel housing above the alternator.
I will post some photos of the control box and the top box tomorrow.

Mick

190
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« on: August 25, 2006, 12:36:28 AM »
The 1983 Lister Instruction  Book No103 on 6-1 &8-1 engines states this about oil.

Naturally aspirated diesel engines must be run on H.D. Diesel lubricating oils to specifications equal or better than DEF2101D or BS1905 type B or MIL-L-46152 orAP1 CD. Straight mineral oils are not suitable, neither are of less detergency than specified.

MIL-L-2104B or MIL-L-2104C or AP1 CD oils are recomemded for engines running at a high load factor, particularly in conjunction with high ambient temperatures. They must also be used if the sulphur content exceeds 0.6%.

Series 111 oils must be used when oil changes are made at periods longer than 250 hours.

Multigrade oils must exceed specifications MIL-L-2104B or MIL-l-2104C.

The oil should be suitable for oil changes every 250 hours without undue oxidation, with sump temperatures reaching 150C in tropical climates under extremely severe applications, and 120C under normal applications.

Viscosity
The viscosity of the lubricating oil must be as follows--
For starting temperatures--
Below -15C                      SAE. 5W
Between -15C and +4C     SAE. 10W
Between  4C and 30C       SAE. 20/20W
Above 30C                      SAE. 30W

 
The oil I use in my 8-1 engined 4.5KW Start-O-Matic is HDX 30 to MIL-L-2104B spec. and this seems better than the multigrade I used to use. I don't use as much oil as I did when using multigrade. I run for 8 hours a day every day and now I only need to top up once a week.
 
 Mick

191
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« on: August 24, 2006, 11:50:31 PM »
The 1983 Lister Instruction  Book No103 on 6-1 &8-1 engines states this about oil.

Naturally aspirated diesel engines must be run on H.D. Diesel lubricating oils to specifications equal or better than DEF2101D or BS1905 type B or MIL-L-46152 orAP1 CD. Straight mineral oils are not suitable, neither are of less detergency than specified.

MIL-L-2104B or MIL-L-2104C or AP1 CD oils are recomemded for engines running at a high load factor, particularly in conjunction with high ambient temperatures. They must also be used if the sulphur content exceeds 0.6%.

Series 111 oils must be used when oil changes are made at periods longer than 250 hours.

Multi grade oils must exceed specifications MIL-L-2104B or MIL-l-2104C.

The oil should be suitable for oil changes every 250 hours without undue oxidation, with sump temperatures reaching 150C in tropical climates under extremely severe applications, and 120C under normal applications.

Viscosity

192
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« on: August 21, 2006, 12:25:29 AM »
I only have experiance with single cylinder engines and have never even seen a twin cylinder engine. I do not know about Indian engines, it seems like they made a few modifications from the Lister design. It probably depends what type of con rod you have.  All the con rods I have seen 7 in total have solid dippers, 5 of them flattened with a knife edge on both edges and they cut the oil edgeways. The other 2 dippers one was flattened and cut the oil broardside and didn't seem to use any more oil than my other engine. The last one was a 5/16 BSF set screw cut down to length and i've never seen that engine run. All the con rods have 2 holes above the big end bearings.
My only information about twins is out of the Lister manuals that are years old so I am not in a position to comment about them from first hand experiance. however I do think you will be fine with the solid dipper because my one which cuts the oil sideways throws so much oil around that everything gets lots of oil.
As far as can understand the manual about the scoop dippers is that it faces away from the crankcase door ie opposite and as such would force the oil into the big end bearing.

All the best Mick 

193
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Lister must do's when first taken home
« on: August 20, 2006, 01:02:15 AM »
re con rod dippers. The thread on the 6-1 and 8-1 Lister engines is 5/16 BSF(British standard fine). I do not know what thread is on the twin cylinder engines. The con rod part number is different for the twin cylinder engines acording to my 1975 Lister parts list. The 1983 Lister 8-1 & 16-2 engine manual says this about con rod dippers.

The dipper fitted to the 8-1 & 6-1 engines is flattened in section and should cut the oil edgeways and NOT broardside on.The hollow dipper in the twin cylinder engines is a scoop, the opening of which is turned away from the crankcase door. The  big end bearings are lubricated from below by a hollow dipper in the twin cylinder engines, and by oil holes from above in the 6-1 & 8-1 engines.

Mick

194
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: SOM Gen heads, any idea on wiring?
« on: August 06, 2006, 10:54:59 PM »
I might well be able to help you sort your startomatic wiring it depends which alternator you have it seems like lister made lots of differant startomatic alternator heads. If you let me know how many wires come out of the top of the genhead and how many dc brushes the ones that go the commutator, what the kw rating on the brass plate says and also the shunt regulator value which is on another brass plate on the gen head  Also do you have the top box that goes on the genhead because this contains essential kit that you need to make it produce 230 volts ie the shunt regulator resistor.
let me know these details and I will try and help you out.
Mick


195
General Discussion / Re: Spending money again..
« on: June 19, 2006, 10:20:45 PM »
Guy
Just been reading your post about the price of 42mm copper elbows you were ripped off. The firm that I use charge 2.32 plus the dreaded for a 42mm female copper x female copper end feed elbow part number 9182 Their website is bes.co.uk they charge a fiver delivery but if you get your order in before 4 pm the bits arrive the next day check them out next time you need plumbing fittings they have a good selection of bsp threaded fittings in stainless brass and mild steel all at good prices. Hope this is of help to you.

Mick

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