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Messages - Firebrick

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91
Listeroid Engines / Re: What about a real oil bath air filter....
« on: May 03, 2006, 10:40:24 PM »
We put two filters on most captive(vehicles) and as an option on other engines.  The outer filter gets changed 3 times before the inner.  The customer can still chose oil bath as a special option but it is rare.

92
Listeroid Engines / Re: What about a real oil bath air filter....
« on: May 03, 2006, 04:44:20 PM »
Hotater,
While in the military I used to live in the desert of california and would sometimes go out to the dunes riding buggies and dirt bikes with my friends. The sand is probably the worst enviroment imaginable for an aircleaner.  Alot of them were running K&N's without problems and the one's that did were for the afore mention lapse in maintenence.  My statement was not to discredit their product, I was simply stating that some people on this forum tend to state a product is great because it is used in racing when many times it has no bearing on the discussion.  Race engines are developed to deliver high power for short times, the exact oppisite to a lister.  I see this at work as well.  Problems were manifesting themselves with an exotic metal cracking and corroding in high heat.  Several claimed that there had to be a problem somewhere else because this metal was expensive, used in aerospace applications, and  therefore the best there was.  A switch to a common carbon steel alloy solved all problems.

Direrected to all, not Hotater
Maybe a K&N is suitable to your taste, and style, or maybe a paper filter.  Mine is an oil bath and others have stated a desire to do so as well.  Yet there are those that prothesize doom and gloom for such choice and it is simply not so.

93
Listeroid Engines / Re: What about a real oil bath air filter....
« on: May 03, 2006, 04:05:11 PM »
In my older Donaldson guide and on this site posted earlier http://www.fallsfti.com/prod_oilbath.htm the efficiently
runs about 95% not 89%.  You are correct that oil filters do worse as time goes on and paper better.  However only the best paper filters reach 95 increasing to 99.5 percent as they load up.  Most of the current cars and trucks do have these filters, normally the square or rectangular shaped ones, but most of your circular cleaners(they don't seal as well either) found on most carburetor models didn't come near that.  Smaller paper filters found on lawn equipment do even worse.  Now that is not all that bad let me remind all of us.  The original listers had an oil felt filter which undoubtedly did worse yet they ran tens of thousands of hours without
problems.  The paper filter set up shown by gorge's cd is perfectly adequate to our needs that our stationary engines which have cleaner air than probably any other application other than aircraft. Car Quest makes these filters to the original manufactures specifications and who exactly knows what that specification is.

Lets for all practical purposes say on average that ALL TYPES of filters come close to the same overall average performance of filtering.  Now what becomes apparent is the way it is implemented.

The main reason that paper filters have become common is that many people espouse the phrase "time is money".  A paper filter, even if it cost 10 times more to replace than the oil, is money well spent because in many places labor is expensive and down time is even more(a piece of heavy equipment can make a company 1000's of dollars an hour).  The other reason is there is always someone screwing up and destroying things.   People can over fill an oil cup and can let it go exceedingly long periods of time without changing them.  Neither of these reasons really apply to us, we are hobbyist for the most part, care and are well educated about our equipment, and are not liable to abuse or neglect the engine cause we paid for it as opposed to the idiots that don't care what happens to their employee rs equipment.

I never have enough money, for there is always someplace around my farm or other hobbies to bury it in. I do have time.  The convenience of a paper filter doesn't equate to the cost of the oil for an oil bath filter for me.  Half a quart of oil is 50 cents.  Enough oil for quite a few changes is easy to store on one of my shelves and saves me gas into town.  I feel that I am competent enough to fill oil to a line in the bowl and that my wife is as well (I am lucky to have a wife that likes to get her hands dirty) therefore eliminating the runaway issue even if there was one on this engine to begin with.  If I buy paper filters and store on the shelf, invariably a mouse decides that it would be a great place to make a nest, destroying the filter.  I have even seen these buggers make nest in paper filters on an engine that has set idle for a few months.  Oil bath filters are still easy to clean, dump the oil and wipe out with a rag.  Washing the whole unit with solvent is not necessary because the clean oil mist will condense and fall back to the cup with the dirt, If washed with solvent the unit will allow dirt to flow by for the first few min until the unit is coated with oil again.  Washing them out is only recommended where someone has let the service interval exceed and become excessively plugged with dirt. 

I must admit that sizing of 4 cylinder models didn't come to mind when I wrote the first post, and at first I agreed upon sizing to one cylinder of a 4 instead of all four.  I did a little research and realized something else, RPM matters as much as  cylinder size.
Most fours in tractors operate about 1600 to 2000 rpm.  Here is an equation to use from above mentioned site.  Cubic Inch Displacement x Max. R.P.M. x .00029.     According to this an International Cub would have a filter of similar size as would a John Deere LA both about 27-29 cfm.  a 6-1 is around 16cfm,  My WAG is the slightly larger CFM would allow for the single cylinder to breath enough in one gulp but I need to do more research.  I truly believe sizing off of one cylinder of a multi cylinder engine without factoring in rpm would be way to big.

As for the K&N.  I know it protects your race cars, but how many races do you get before having to rebuild?(not saying that you have to rebuild because of air problems)  Most sprint races I have been to there is little dust, as they wet the track just enough to make it pack.  There is mud, which is quite a large particle to any filter.  I have a friend that uses K&N on his sprint car, he says that it does make more horsepower and as long as it keep the major chunks out that would prevent him from finishing a race he will continue to use them, rightfully so in my opinion(He gets about 10 race nights out of an engine before he goes through them).  Racers care about winning, some drag racers use no air filters at all and rebuild after every run.  I am not saying it is a bad filter, just that it isn't great simply because it is race technology.  Most things on the race track have no place in an engine used in every day life.  My only real stink about the K&N is the cost.  The initial cost is pretty salty and then you have to buy the cleaners and the special oil to re-oil.  I have seen failures with these filters but I would say that they were more likely due to applying the oil in an nonuniform manner missing spots and mechanical damage, not because of the filter design. 

94
Listeroid Engines / Re: What about a real oil bath air filter....
« on: May 02, 2006, 01:05:02 AM »
This topic was discussed on another post, http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=125.0, but the conclusions some were reaching I belive were wrong.  A good oil bath air filter is as good as the best paper filter.  The rinky dink one on the listeriods are not what I would call good.  An automotive or tractor oil bath would be well suited(i would chose a small 4cyl or the small 2 cyl filter, not an A JD or M international model, it would be overkill).  The fears of the engine running away because of the oil bath filter which might be valid on the stock one would not be an issue for a larger one.  The wire mesh inside allows the oil to drop out of the air.  Most run away diesels start as a fuel problem and 99.9 percent end there.  The engines that were really bad about having the runaways continue on oil was the 2 cycle detroits. With all the oil they leak I bet they would run away without an airfilter period.   They suck in twice as much air  and with all the seals in their blowers is where the oil usually came from.  I have never seen one with a oil bath run away but it may of happened.  Because of the speed and amount of air though the filter would go up so drastically in these engines an air cleaner the may be borderline at 3000 rpms might not at 4000.  The air filters I have seen on them are no larger than the ones on engine that use half the air because of space.
As far as K&N filters, the are race filters and excell as such but are to expensive and even more time comsuming to maintain for a non race application such as our listers.

95
Listeroid Engines / Re: Lifter finish and shape
« on: May 01, 2006, 03:39:38 AM »
You are correct hotater, the cam is supposed to be radiused with concave lifter or else edge loading is extreamly high.  Maybe the indians could copy the lifters but lack the machines for the cams?  Are the origninals radius?  Automotive lifters are normally 30-40" circle ground and larger diesels are 80-120 inch ground.  Grinding the lifter flat might slow down the rotation somewhat but it would surely reduce edge loading and all the wear problems related to this. 

96
Listeroid Engines / Re: Listeroid Ballence mis understood
« on: April 30, 2006, 05:07:09 PM »
Doug,
I didnt mean to start a war similar to the Ford/Chevy/Dodge/what ever your bag is.  I simply ment to show Guy Fawkes that a company has managed to meet "on road" regulations with out any comprimises and there for the EPA will not back off their timeline for the extremely low demands. 
On this forum I am not representing my company but giving my own opinion, sometimes use publically available information related to my company.  I personally own a 1984 3 ton truck with a detrioit and it has served my purpose well and it has some good things going for it. I could talk for day of personal expirence with construction equipment, military vehicles, and on road trucks to what is the best.  Sometimes in my opinion it would be cat, sometime another brand.  No one company makes a complete line of equipment that will fit every role best.  First I would like to state as a cat employee I am not allowed to release specific technical informtion about my companies products.  Most of it can be found on www.cat.com. The 60 series detroit is a 12 or 14 liter engine depending on the model.  The R1600/1700 uses a 10.3  liter 3176 so your comparison of machines is not "apples to apples."  A r2900g extra would have the closest engine size.  Also I stated that the advantges were to ACERT engines which Is the C series engines  that are not being used in this machine yet(off road equipment has a different timeline than on road to meeting emmisions, and I assume without knowing the details that the mine regulations you quoted are strict similar to the EPA guidelines.  Retrofiting emmisions equipment to a non acert engine would probably derate it.  I am guessing that Cat(I am not even in this division) will have a model ready by the time the EPA requires it as the Regular R2900 as you can see does have a C15 in it. 

97
Listeroid Engines / Re: Piston ring dimensions
« on: April 30, 2006, 04:37:45 PM »
Thanks,
I was looking at 3208 rings, they are the same width but are also deeper. (.184)

98
Listeroid Engines / Re: Listeroid Ballence mis understood
« on: April 29, 2006, 06:50:23 PM »
Guy, our high sulphur fuel is become a thing of the past at least with on road diesel.  Much of it already is and by 2008 almost every catogory of refineries are supposed to have on road fuel below 15ppm of sulphur.  Next, while detroit and cummins have used EGR to lower emmisions this robs horsepower(3-5%), fuel economy (3-5%), and lowers durability due to the increase heat load. 
I work for Cat and they have developed there ACERT technology instead of EGR to increase fuel economy, increase horsepower, and have the same if not slightly better durability.  These EPA regulations have been very profitable to cat and they are able to even meet the stringent tier 4 regulations on most of their engines long before anyone else has. 

99
Listeroid Engines / Piston ring dimensions
« on: April 28, 2006, 12:57:40 AM »
Can anyone take a look at there 6/1 rings (Compression) and mike the thickness and width (metric prefered).  I found a possible high quality replacement, the bore is 4.5" 114.3mm lets see if the other measurements add up.

100
Listeroid Engines / Re: Decision Time
« on: April 27, 2006, 02:58:35 PM »
Alot of old anhydrous ammonia tanks were two wheeled carts with a 500 gallon tank mounted crosswise.  These were replaced by the larger 1000 gallon tanks on a 4 wheel wagon.  Every so often I see one in good shape at a sale and my father bought one and converted to propane storage after taking off the cart.  We got the idea from an amish fellow who stored air to run his well and all his shop equipment from his lister diesel compressor(aircooled 2 cylinder, way to loud for me) Selling the wheels and scraping the cart covered all of his cost. So if you live in a farming community these might be an option for compressed air storage

Jay Moyer   

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