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Messages - Firebrick

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31
Listeroid Engines / Re: Blueprinting, what is it? and to what level
« on: October 19, 2006, 04:33:33 PM »
I have to used abrasive paper with excellent results, as well as hand scrapping.  I would have to say the the abrasive paper would be better for a layman to use than the scrapping would.  I used a piece of copy machine glass, took full sheets of sand paper, and used a tacky spray adheasive to glue it down to the glass. Place the part to be flattened upside down on the glass not the other way around.  The glass needs quite thick and supported on either a surface plate as cujet mention or on a bed of sand.  Start at a corse(100-320) grit depending on exactly what I was trying to do and work my way down into the very fine wet sand paper(2000).  One a head I dont know if I would go that fine as the gaskets might not have a purchase and would liable to be blown out. 

32
General Discussion / Re: concrete vs resilient mounting
« on: October 15, 2006, 06:36:09 AM »
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i also understand what i have seen in the field, engines that are rigidly mounted to a subframe, that are meant to be
a moveable stationary engine (such as oil field mud pumps) break crankshafts quite easily if dropped a very few inches from the truck that is placing them ( i might add on the ground not concrete). whereas

the same engine mounted resiliently in a truck can sustain being dropped the same distance without breaking the crank.

no granted neither engine was running when the cranks broke and as such the failure was from shock loading.  but the principle seems to be the same. just happens much quicker instead of over time.

come on somebody educate me

I have seen a few cranks "sprung" from the engine being dropped in the factory.  Interestly enough, when they are spinning and are dropped they have no problems in this area.

33
General Discussion / Re: what makes a stationary engine "stationary"?
« on: October 13, 2006, 07:05:48 AM »
I will start of with a little bit about my experience on the subject, the engines that I help build put out 700-3000 hp and come in 8-20 cylinders.  They are installed in LARGE vehicles such as mining trucks, dozers, loaders, ships, factories, oil shale fracturing rigs, and better than 2/3rds are stationary used in electric power generation, natural gas compression, and other factory type installations.



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1. what makes a stationary engine "stationary" other than it sits in one place?
99 percent of the time they run for extended time periods, more constant loads, and constant speed.

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2. what characteristics does a stationary engine have that a non stationary engine does not have?
    (given similar size, power, and cylinder count)
Ours share the same basic engine but oil pans are different because of space on a vehicle, flywheel and housings are standard size on   a stationary engine and matched to the application on other classes of engines.  The tubochargers are sized for constant power instead of peak power.  The stationary engines are mounted by their oil pans instead of mounts to the block/flywheel housing. 


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2. what characteristics does a stationary engine have that a non stationary engine does not have?
    (given similar size, power, and cylinder count)
Oil sump and how its mounted is about it.

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4. do all stationary engines have to be rigidly mounted? if so why?
Yes and No, traditionally they have been mounted to a solid base(normally concrete) but our company has made units that can be place on solid level ground.  They do however need to be solidly mounted to what it is driving and there cant be and misalignment due to the mass.  So if they are not bedded down they are mounted on a very stiff box section frame that has resiliant pucks underneath. 

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5. what are the primary reasons to rigidly mount a stationary engine?
I think most are off base here.  Most stationary engines are big and heavy and drive attachments that are big and heavy. A 14 foot block that weighs 7 ton will sag 1/2 and inch in not supported evenly across its lenghth.  Even when bolted solidly to a generator, the gen set needs a set of rails sufficient stiff enough to resist the mass of the package from sagging or moving out of alignment and belive me it will.  Almost all stationary set ups and most large marine set ups use very heavy c channel rails or L rails for the marine setups.  These have very heavy cross braces bolted up to strengthen them yet they still have to be put on a solid no moving base and realigned.  Only a very heavy box section frames welded together are stiff enough to be placed on resilient pads.

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6. are there examples of stationary engines that are resilient mounted?
Yes, see above

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7. what make lister engines different than other stationary engines of similar size, hp, and cyl count?
    (as it relates to mounting)
The vast majority of stationary engines are coupled directly to the driven load(such as a gen bolted to the flywheel bell housing)  where the lister is coupled with a belt.


bob g

34
Is that gear bronze?

35
Listeroid Engines / Re: Dumb ? of the day
« on: August 15, 2006, 11:00:14 PM »
http://www.tinytach.com/tinytach/diesel.php

Made for this application, not to expensive either.  I havent used the diesel version but have used the original tinytach, I though it was pretty good stuff.

36
Listeroid Engines / Re: Exhaust smoke
« on: August 07, 2006, 05:07:44 AM »
Dont feed the troll

37
Listeroid Engines / Re: Increased efficiency
« on: August 07, 2006, 03:37:32 AM »
Lets stop feeding the troll

38
Listeroid Engines / Re: Increased efficiency
« on: August 06, 2006, 08:05:37 PM »
Slowspeed, I understand the differences between static and dynamic, compression.  Manufactures still normally lower the static compression ratio when they increase the dynamic compression ratio with super/turbochargers.  The compression valve was used at low speed/power for starting and screwed out or lower compression for running at "high" speed if you can call it that?  And the fact that this valve is present shows that there was issues running at high dynamic compression of the orignal listers under load. Static compression ratio has a profound effect on the dynamic ratio, one can't change one and ignore the other. The likely hood of extensive mods required would be high for the gains.  Now if a turbo was used to generate electricity, no mods, other than a pressure oil system and custom exhaust manifold would be required, and the power would be nearly free as far as fuel consumption goes, dont know if it would pay back for the extra cost of the system, but I feel it would be a higher gain than turbocharging the engine itself.

39
Listeroid Engines / Re: Increased efficiency
« on: August 06, 2006, 05:22:30 PM »
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This is only half of the equation. The other half being, more air in means higher dynamic compession. Higher compression means greater expansion per unit/fuel


Assuming that the original listers had the varible compression valve because if the engine was ran at the high compression/start setting under full power there would be durability problems(broken cranks/wiped bearings?)  The indians set the compression somewhere in the middle depending on who one would belive, so if you increased the compression ratio more would the engines survive? 

Suprised no one has mentioned turbo compounding, such as used on the connie/dc-7 and current scania and volvo truck engines.  Good 15-18 percent effiecientcy right there, of course the kicker is, as most of the suggestions, the complexity and cost would make it a moot point.  Although I see john deere is mounting a generator on the housing itself, those who want to charge a battery bank could scrounge a small turbo, remove the compressor turbine/housing and mount a small dc generator to the power turbine.  (http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2005/session6/2005_deer_vuk.pdf) One could charge the battery bank at the same time as producing ac without the losses associated with converting ac to dc and transforming it to the right voltage and correct charge rate. 

As other stated, cheap fuel is the cheapest way to go as is increasing the effiecentcy and decreasing the load on the generating/consumption end on the beast.

40
Everything else / Re: Lindsay's Technical Books
« on: August 04, 2006, 10:45:57 PM »
I have several and have used them.  Yes alot of it is recycled, but for a small cost you gain alot of time finding things.  Even on this group really finding things and sorting out fact from fiction  is a cluster *&*$.  I thought that the How to section was going to help but they look like they are heading down the same rabbit hole as the rest of the forum/internet.  I have used the internet to find alot of things, new and old, but wasted alot of time doing so.

41
Listeroid Engines / Re: Roller rockers
« on: August 02, 2006, 03:10:38 PM »
Cujet, which way and how much is your rockers/valve cap out of alignment(standing at the pushrods looking at the engine).  About you dkwflight? 

42
Listeroid Engines / Re: Roller rockers
« on: August 01, 2006, 05:51:38 PM »
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Wow it can take a static load of 320lbs over and over again . What do you know!

I wonder what the spring pressures are 50lbs?

First the spring pressure is only part of the problem, there is weight of momentum generated by the lifter/pushrod/rocker arm itself and frictional forces of the valve, rocker shaft, lifters that are part of the load will be transferred to that bearing.  Second, false brinelling is more of a factor here than true brinelling, which is what the 320lbs static load refers to. Also there is lash and acceleration/decelleration that you have not taken into account.   With out lubrication (the bearing wont spin a great deal)  and combine that with the constant vibration of the engine it will false brinell pretty easy, now add that with the force of the static load and possible fretting and you have ruined bearings in short order. 



Cujet
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The real reason for the roller tip would be that the supplied rockers cannot be blueprinted into spec. They do not have enough material on the pads. Nor do they, or could they, come close to contacting the valve in the center. The parts work but I would not expect long life due to the poor geometry.

I am still rolling this one around in my head:)

No, I agree that something should be done.  My rockers sit far off to the left, they are fine fore and aft.  Either the rocker shaft stud was positioned wrong or the valves were. (right/left/fore/aft refers as I look at the rockers from the pushrod side of the engine, fore being away, aft towards me)  The right side could be shimmed to the right to center it but the left?  I thought about heating the end up and bending it to the right or facing the right or machineing a new rockershaft mount, havent made up my mind yet.    If your rockers are off fore and aft then machining a new rocker shaft support would be the easiest way to do it.

Grinding the pad, could be done, sounds like a good possibility, I belive however something like below would be easier for a vast majority to implement. 

How about the following.  http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/911L/POR_911L_ENGpis_pg4.htm#
Valve Adjusting Screw, 911 Carrera 2/4 (1989-94), 911 Turbo (1991-94), 10.75 Each @
http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/911L/POR_911L_ENGpis_pg4.htm#item13
Many diesels have this kind of elephants foot.  I am not saying that this one will fit correctly, just a good picture to show an idea and cost, I need some time to find a close size match.  I cant imagine porche parts to be cheaper than similar screw/elephant foot pads so the cost would be under 30 dollars for 2 valves assuming you have a tap and drill bit handy.  To modify the rocker you would have to push out the post/pad(probly drill the center out of the post)  and enlarge/tap the hole for the screw.  The fact that they are adjustable will allow fine tuning the contact point(probly only thousands fore and aft) and one wouldn't have to do a large amount of machining. 


43
Listeroid Engines / Re: Roller rockers
« on: August 01, 2006, 03:23:38 PM »
I give some references to support you Bob, I stated the brinelling and now you have but he still doesnt belive. 

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False brinnelling/impact damage
False brinelling is bearing surface wear.  It occurs when the rollers slide axially back and forth on the race while the bearing is
essentially stationary but subject to vibration
A groove is worn into the race by the roller's sliding action.

This condition, while caused by vibration, may be exacerbated or inhibited by other operating environmental factors such as loading, lubrication, bearing setting, etc.   Vehicles shipped by rail, truck or boat over long distances are susceptible to false brinelling.  Abearing in this condition is very rough and noisy in operation because of the roller-spaced wear on the races.

Extremely heavy impact loads can also result in brinelling of the bearing races.  These heavy loads also can fracture the races or rollers.  This is true metal deformation and not wear, like seen in false brinelling.
   Source:  http://www.mrotoday.com/mro/archives/Uptime/bearingsAM1999.htm

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Brinelling
Brinelling is the plastic deformation of bearing element surfaces due to extreme or repeated shock loads.
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False brinelling
False brinelling is recognisable by the grooves worn into the raceways by axial movement of the rollers during transportation.
Source:  http://www.timken.com/products/bearings/services/valueadd/prevent.asp

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Occurs when there is small relative motion between the balls/rollers and raceways during non-rotation times.
Characterized by elliptical wear marks in the axial direction at each ball/roller postioin.
When the bearing isn't turning, an oil film cannot be formed to prevent raceway wear.
Wear marks are perpendicular to the line of motion, normally well-defined, and sometimes surrounded by debris.
Source:  http://www.emersonbearing.com/fail_falsebrinell.htm

The listers would have both true and false brinelling as a failure mode.  True from the constant pounding in one spot with little rotation and false from the vibration of the engine while the bearing is not loaded.  Because the bearing race is not moving but 1/16-18 of an inch there would be no redistribution of lubication in the bearing leading to possible fretting

44
Listeroid Engines / Re: Roller rockers
« on: July 31, 2006, 06:06:20 PM »
That sounds good to me Gerry, except if you shimmed to to center line of the spindle it wouldnt remove much of anything, just make a swirl pattern on the face, shouldn't it be above or below center line so the stone has some surface speed?  Larger or farther out on the grinding wheel, less radiused the grinding marks will be, and if you set up everything else as described should not effect the geometry any.

45
Listeroid Engines / Re: Roller rockers
« on: July 31, 2006, 05:55:05 PM »
Sorry for using a double negative, maybe you should be an english teacher instead of messing with mechanics that you have no idea about?

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