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Topics - Powdermonkey

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1
Engines / Slip....kerplunk!
« on: March 04, 2024, 11:23:57 PM »
Well....due to me wanting to get my compression correct between the cylinders of a twin listeroid, ONE of the cylinders required a "minimalistic" approach with the base gasket below the cylinder.  AND...this VERY thin gasket resulted in some oil being evenly distributed about the bottom end of my engine...on the OUTSIDE.  So...me ordered a goodly sized tube of RTV...for a caulking gun, and went to work.  After spraying down the twin with a pressure washer, drying it off, and then cleaning the vertical and horizontal mating surface with some goodly quantity of carburetor cleaner (and then wiping it off clean), I caulked the hell out of that joint between the body of the engine and #1 cylinder.  AND FOR GOOD MEASURE, I figured I'd also aptly caulk under the cam follower support housings for the valves....(being that I don't know the formal "kennel name" for such things...ahem "Valve Tappet Guide")

Well....do YOU know that those blasted valve tappets DO slide up and down, inside those guides?  Who'd have thought?  And...if you don't watch it, those valve tappets WILL slide RIGHT OUT of those guides, and deposit themselves down into the bowels of a lister?  Well....it was time for an oil change anyway. 

And so...after draining the oil from the sump, I managed to find that entire valve tappet, safely bathed in a goodly quantity of perfectly-good 500-hour oil.  And I thought to myself, "Now....I'm not that flexible so as to wrap my arm up under that crankshaft, over the camshaft, place that valve tappet up into its location...AND hold it in place with the OTHER hand, while also balanced upon a 2-foot flywheel"  Nope. 

Hmmm...I thought.  There, THERE in the recesses of the laboratory is a 10-foot cutting of some spare 14-gauge solid electrical wire.  AND IF I WERE SMART, I'd form that into a bit of a fish-tape.  And so....I grabbed the ground-wire off that bunch of Romex 14 gauge wire, and fished it DOWN from the valve tappet guide hole, to the inside of the cam, to the outside of the crankshaft, down into the sump...and out the door. 

I wrapped that 14-gauge wire around the valve tappet about 5 or 4 times, then dog-legged the last wrap, so that any tension I placed upon that wire as I was pulling the valve tappet back through the inner workings of that listeroid would cause the thin-end to travel first. 

DO YOU KNOW that within about 30 seconds of wrapping that valve tappet in wire, and a few "words of encouragement", I had the stub of that valve tappet pinched between my fingers, perched on top of the hole for the valve tappet guide? 

Yep.  And that's how I slayed the dragon today. 

2
Engines / White smoke, pump timing
« on: November 21, 2023, 01:02:10 PM »
Folks- I've been plagued by disproportionate white smoke coming out the exhaust of #2 cylinder of my 16hp twin.  Oily residue drips/sputters from that muffler.  No matter how I adjusted the proportioning rods to change the relative pump fuel delivery, it had NO benefit.  I thought it might have been a difference in compression between the two cylinders; rigged up a compression gauge and ran each cylinder under-power...and NO significant difference.  Thought it might have been poor valve fit.  Lapped all the valves at the 1,000 hour rebuild.  NO benefit.  Thought it might have been rings or the condition of the cylinder walls (not seating the rings).  Nope.  By re-lapping the cylinders, NO benefit.  New rings.  NO benefit. 

Then one day, I was searching the internet for other possible causes.  Pump timing.  NOW....I'd made a custom built camshaft, using the existing pined on cams.  I'd advanced both pump-timing cams by 3-degrees, getting me into the efficiency of ~ 26 degrees of pump advance BTDC.  And, the efficiency of the engine DID improve, as per the university study.  But....the white smoke....

Now, everybody knows about adjusting the length of the cam follower, so as to optimize the pump timing. Me, I'm of the opinion that THIS method ONLY STARTS or RETARDS the pump timing, but does NOT change the PEAK timing...at all.  THUS, I build a new cam. 

So, in furtherance of pump timing:  As an experiment, I placed some standard automotive body shims under the mating surface of the pump and cam cover.  1/32 of an inch.  Thus, RETARDING the START of the pump timing, but NOT affecting the location of PEAK timing.  And...sure enough.  The white smoke went away.  The oily drippage stopped.  AND, referencing the oil pressure gauge, it's no longer bouncing around all over the place.  Matter of fact, once the engine warms up, the needle barely moves off the 3-5 PSI indicator. 

This engine's got almost 2,000 hour on it.  Dare I say, I may be one of the few who use these engines as true day-in-day-out prime movers. 

BTW- for those following my exploits.....the toilet-paper oil filter works just fine. 

3
Lister Based Generators / Poll: Oversized generator?
« on: September 24, 2023, 02:05:42 AM »
Folks:  I'm NOT asking if this is "right or wrong".  I already know the answer to THAT question.  And any engineer worth his salt will agree (though on only some level)....(sounds like "no good Scotsman to me....)

So, capacitance (actually "Inductance") within a generator head is largely forgotten in the modern vernacular of modern-day generators.  But, many of us know that LRA (locked rotor amperage) is a defining factor in getting a motor to turn, when using a generator.  It ain't the "run" amps that you need to START a device, it's the "LRA" that counts. 

Now, given the MASSIVE flywheels of a Lister-design, and as a function of them, the VAST momentary momentum (instantaneous horse-power (ahem....torque)), these engines are, compared to modern "engineering"....most amazing. 

So then, to a poll I propose:

Given (let's say) a 8 HP lister design...or perhaps a 12 hp (as in my case)....what's the LARGEST generator head anyone has used to pull massive 1 power-factor at some astounding momentary amperage (given the horsepower of the engine)? 

OBVIOUSLY, I'm not talking about using an 8 or 12 hp lister to pull a demand of 12 or 20 KW of power, on a constant-demand basis.  That would be absolutely ludicrous....all would agree.  But...let's say that you've got an air conditioner at 220V, that pulls 60 amps on locked-rotor-amperage.  Demand at that 60 amps is....1 second?  And then, after that, you're running the AC unit at 12 amps.   Nothing substantial for the 8 or 12 hp engine. 

I'm contemplating running a 20 KW ST head on my 12 hp single.  This, to overcome the LRA demands of several "intermittent" electrical motors within  a potential "emergency circuit".  The flywheel on the engine, as well the flywheel on the 20 ST head will provide substantial instantaneous power...

I'm not asking for theoretical opinions about this, from the brotherhood-of-electrical-power-generation.  I'm asking for "real-world" results from this craft, who have bothered to "tickle the dragons belly"....

4
Generators / SCORE! Westinghouse 250 Amp Load Cell!
« on: September 09, 2023, 11:54:37 AM »
Hi Folks!  I managed to find a Westinghouse 250 amp adjustable load cell for testing power generation! 

5
Listeroid Engines / A tranquil evening....
« on: September 08, 2023, 02:29:15 AM »
So...I was "just checking" the status of my 6/1 Lovson Listeroid this evening.  I'd run her during the hurricane that just came through Florida, and had neglected the lass these past several days, due to more pressing matters...

It's dark out, and I'm working with me headlamp.  Checking the alignment, the belt, thinking of draining the 50-gallon cooling tower (NO, no thermostat for me, thank you very much)...

And what do you know, after the family and I returned from dinner at a local Mexican restaurant, up pops a south-moving torrent from Tallahassee.  BIG storm.  LOTS of lightning.   I didn't know it at the time, as I was simply working with the head lamp.  But, I looked across the yard towards the house, and noticed it was DARK.  Humph.  Maybe we lost power?  Sure enough, we lost a tree across the main power lines, about a mile from the house.

I called the bride on the phone, and enquired about the status of the darkness.  She confirmed that we'd lost street power.  "Ah!", I said.  "Well then, lovely woman, would you be so kind as to throw the main in the house?"

And, within 30 seconds, we were back up.  Running the emergency-plan, yes.  But who needs hot water and air conditioning, when it's supposed to be only 72 F tonight? 

A wonderful evening, indeed. 

6
Listeroid Engines / The Case of "Smoke in the Trees"
« on: August 15, 2023, 01:39:05 AM »
So there I was, at the house of ill repute.  I make point of occasionally stuffing my head out the back door, to listen for any errant chugs, clicks, chirps or farts.  It was close to closing time, and the lads had long since flown the coop to find more entertaining ventures.  I was alone...

The temperature was a mediterranean nightmare, complete with the sweats of typhoid.  A "balmy" day, at 117 F, with the heat index. Pure bliss.  No joy to be in the environment, let alone wrapped over the top of a steaming generator. 

But THERE, wafting through the dense bush of an overgrown berm, was the distinct apparition.  Thick exhaust smoke, trailing north through the trees.  Up some 20 feet high.  There, THERE could be ONLY ONE CAUSE.  Oh....what's it to be....?  A belt gone a-fire?  The oil soaked stanchion, giving up the magic smoke?  Or....no.  It JUST can't be.  She's a chugging along.  I'm pulling 228@ 62Hz, nary a care in the world.  Just checked the oil this morning, and all was good.  No water in the tower?  Pfft. 

In the heat of the moment, I ran to the generator shed.  As I turned the corner to the twin's berth, black BLACK BLACK dense smoke FILLED the roofline of the shed.  BILLOWED out from all sides.  BILLOWED, as if to say, "DOOM".  DOOOOMMMM!

Fuuf-a-haw, fuuf-a-haw, fufu-a-haw....belching burping spewing pushing wafting MORE.....and again. 

Cripe, I threw the main, holding my breath in the rich black environment.  Eyes stinging from the effluence.  Able to just make out the cut-off for the high pressure pump, I threw it upward...in anticipation of stopping the bewildering carnage.  Yet...#1 quit...while #2 kept on chugging.  Thinking quickly, I found the control rod for #2 high pressure pump, and pushed it forward.  With great reluctance, #2 finally quit firing.  The engine returned to zero, finally releasing its residual momentum. 

And yet...I had an immediate appointment to pick up the boy from school.  No time for diagnosis...

So...errand run, I started considering the matter at hand.  Did I lose rings?  Bad injector?  WHAT could have caused such mass carnage?  The....linkage?  The linkage?  THE LINKAGE!  IF the linkage somehow came apart, ONE of the cylinder WOULD continue to fire, while the OTHER MIGHT have been over/under fed by an unencumbered controller!  Ho hey!  I might be so lucky!

Back I drove to the scene of the crime.  A heavy HEAVY downpour accompanied me, only to cool my scalding body after the 117 degree day.  Getting out of the truck, I was immediately drenched...a welcomed feeling, believe you me. 

And there....there just below the #1 high pressure pump, was a link arm sitting outside its intended horse-shoe anchor. The anchor was stripped (or never threaded correctly to begin with) THERE be THE problem...AND...the solution. 

Walking through the torrent, over to the bone-yard, I had a spare "-oid", having given up the ghost of its crank shaft.  Someday, someday.  But...THERE was the horse-shoe part I needed. A bit rusty, but good enough.  Some turns with a 1/4x20 tap, and a few hits with a file...she was good-enough.  Back to the twin I went, wet with environment and anticipation. 

A few twists here.  A few twists there.  An eyeball, and a guess. 

Set the compression by-passes, install the crank, and PULL with all the hope left in Pandora's box....

Trip #1.....

Pppphhhhhhaaaaaaa-PPPhhhhhaaaaaaa- TRIP #2!!!!  Ppphhaaa-Pppphhhaaaaa-Ppppfffaaaaaa!  White smoke on #2, clean on #1.  Shut her down, and gave her more Dino-juice on #2 by adjusting that rod shorter. 

Trial #2- Got her running, and just about clean on both sides.  Running like a boy on Sadie Hawkins Day!  NO BLACK smoke.  Clean.  Phew.  God Almighty, phew.  Ready for tomorrow. 

And THAT folks, is why we love these machines....

7
Engines / Installing pistons into cylinders, from the bottom, one-man
« on: August 07, 2023, 12:56:21 AM »
Folks- Necessity is the mother of invention.  Today, I was an unaccompanied engineer, working on a twin listeroid;  putting in new rings. 

I'm of the opinion that with a lister/listeroid rebuild, the pistons and connecting rods go on the engine BEFORE the cylinders.  A standard V-8 engine rebuilder wouldn't fathom such blasphemy, but we purists do what we do...

And so, HOW does ONE man, with the rudimentary tools of a house-frau, manage to come to a bold and "yet so obvious" method of "jacking" a lister cylinder down onto a ringed piston?  Well my friends stand by....I ain't saying I was the FIRST one to figure this out, but I've studied these engines for a bit, and I've never heard of this method.  So...it worked for me.  It worked well.  I damaged nothing.  I used the standard tools of a no-body.  I did it myself.  It was simple and effective.  Mouth watering yet? 

You'll need:  Rings on the piston, properly placed offset, and assurance that your gaps are correct in your bore.  The connecting rod torqued to spec, with proper clearance for movement on the journal.  The cylinder honed to your liking.  A "bit" of heavy oil or light grease on the cylinder skirt taper (on the bottom), whereby the rings squeeze into this taper and into the bore.  You'll ALSO need two sets of vice-grip pliers. 

Position the ringed piston ABOUT half-way up the throw.  Lubricate the rings now, just before installation, with a good motor oil.  MAKE sure you've got the proper offset...

Now, you've got studs sticking out of the block.  Likely one or two of them are NOT quite tight.  Maybe a little slack in them?  PUT some slack in each one of them.  Maybe a good couple of turns out from bottom.  It'll make it easier to align the cylinder with the studs, if they can each flop about a bit....but I digress.  Sure, you can retighten them once we're done with this exercise...

Now- sight along the TOP of the piston, as it's hand-held square in the bottom hole coming up from the crankcase.  Grab a set of vice-grip pliers and lock them down to one of the studs, JUST above where the top of that piston is now located.  Grab a second set of vice grips, repeating the prior step, but on a different stud. 

Next- Get the piston centered in the hole, and use the crank to JUST start an upward motion of that piston going into the bottom of the cylinder. 

(Yawn, right?  Hey, we're JUST about to get to the good part.....)

Mkay- drop the cylinder JUST ABOVE the first ring.  HOLD that cylinder in place with those vice-grip pliers on the studs.  Remember how I told you to unthread them a turn or two, so they're floppy?  Yeah.....here we go. 

Now that the cylinder is JUST ABOVE that first ring, go ahead and grab one of those vice grip pliers and TURN IT.  Turning that stud further INTO the block (clockwise) will ever-so slowly DROP that cylinder further onto that ringed piston, as its controlled or "stopped" by that vice-grip pliers.  See that the ring is centered, then grab the OTHER vice-grip pliers and TURN IT.  Turn THAT other stud further into the block.  Watch for the attitude of that ring, and persuade it up into that taper (fingers/screw drivers, etc).  Continue to turn the studs, with the vice-grip attached (as your jack), alternating between the two jacks, and repositioning them when appropriate...and that cylinder and those rings will ever so gently and slowly assume its proper relationship with THAT ring.  The important concept to understand:  The STUDS, coupled with the vice-grip pliers ARE YOUR JACKS.  Use the threaded studs AS YOUR JACKS. 

Sure, you turn that stud enough, and you're going to run out of threads again.  Gosh, what's an idiot to do?  I think you all can figure this part out! 

Any way, TODAY was an awesome learning day.  If any of you are confused about the use and employment of a "jack", and what I mean by "nice and slow" and convey "well controlled", please feel free to PM me. 

8
Things I want to Buy / Lister JK, JP
« on: August 05, 2023, 11:58:14 PM »
Well folks.....I've got the bug.  Should anybody stateside have a 2 or 3 cylinder JK or JP, I'd be most interested in talking with them. 

10
Engines / decarboning....how to?
« on: May 17, 2023, 11:35:07 AM »
Hi Folks- I'm just completing the 1,000 hour rebuild on my twin 16/2.  It's been running well, thought I want to KEEP it running well.  Rehoned the cylinders, new rings, and decarboned the head.  Mind you, the carbon buildup on the exhaust side (both heads) was...a good bit.  Not insurmountable, but still a good bit of work.  I suspect the standard mufflers are likewise "coked". 

So, the question:  Other than mechanical abrasion (scraping), is there a better/easier way to decarbon the entire exhaust port AND mufflers?  I'm thinking of trying a pressure washer...anybody got experience here? 

11
Listeroid Engines / 800 hours on 16/2...Toilet Paper Filter
« on: February 15, 2023, 12:14:20 PM »
Hi Folks- for those doubting Thomases, I attach for you the 800-hour results of the 16/2.  Please keep in mind, this engine is NOT a museum piece.  It's a work-horse, as was intended.  Sure, I keep it preserved from the elements in a thin coating of burned motor oil.  That's just to keep it pristine underneath! 

The Frantz toilet paper filter continues to work flawlessly. 


[url]https://youtu.be/IU6rySjstsE/url]

[url]https://youtu.be/IU6rySjstsE/[url]

12
Engines / Valve stem umbrella seals
« on: October 18, 2022, 01:50:25 AM »
Hi Folks- Running several listeroid clones.  Some twins, some single cylinder units.  The Indian varieties have a bit of clearance between the valve stem and head. 

I'm looking to see if folks have retrofitted an umbrella seal on any of these heads?  If you've done it, I'd be most grateful for pictures or machining concepts that would benefit the endeavor.


13
Engines / New take on an old camshaft
« on: May 20, 2022, 10:01:40 PM »
Folks- I'm a bit of an engine geek, and less of an electronics geek.  I sure appreciate those folks who share knowledge about AVR's and capacitors.  I love to learn...

So...in thanks, I post my latest findings regarding the old listers and lister clones...

If you scour the internet about injector timing for slow-speed Diesel engines, you'll find a few articles published by MIT and some "foreign" universities about optimization of injector timing.  And they're using Listeroids in those tests.  Those articles are by-and-large consistent in optimization of standard diesel products in these engines. 

The magic number is 27-degrees.  Sure, I'll grant you that the advancement optimization does change with load and RPM.  But...18-to-20 degrees consistently fails comparatively poorly to this 27-degree number. 

So, being I am who I am, I decided to get a piece of correct alloy round-stock (not from Habib's scrap bin...), and re-cut my entire cam location.  I mapped everything out on the original cam, and cut a new one.  BUT...I placed the fuel pump cam locator pins 3-degrees advanced from their original location.  As cams go, that means I've essentially advanced the "start" by 6-degrees of engine rotation. 

I do use the technique of using a spare injector, placed directly over the flywheel AT Top Dead Center to define my "start" location.  Works well, in my humble opinion.  The fuel pattern on the flat face of the flywheel defines true "injector timing".  I'd sure like to hear from knowledgeable folks if this method is of poor judgement...On my twin, I've got both cylinders timed for "right about" 26 degrees BTDC. 

Why not simply increase the throw on the cam follower bolt?  Well, by my measurements, it seems to me that I'm coming dangerously close to bottoming out the fuel pump, and potentially wrecking parts and pieces, when I attempt to advance past about 20-degrees.  Likewise, I don't know that by simply changing the length of the cam follower, that you truly do "much".  The "start" essentially remains the "start", and the "peak" essentially remains "the peak".  You've JUST got more throw.  But...if you change the location of that fuel pump cam, then one is certainly "doing the do". 

Results indicate less fuel consumption for same load, less smoke (for sure), and satisfaction (so far) for the monkey who turns the wrench.  Also, certainly less "dripage" from the mufflers. 

So, if you KNOW about these things, I'd truly like your input.  If you "think" "that's not how the engine was designed"...maybe not so much.   

14
Engines / Oil Filtration video results
« on: April 26, 2022, 12:06:20 AM »
Folks- I changed the toilet paper in the Frantz Filter after some initial runs.  I'm guessing I ran the twin 16 for a total of about 25 hours before changing the toilet paper element. 

Not to let good things go to waste, I wanted to figure out how much metal that filter captured.  So...I decided to burn the paper element, and have a look.  Now I COULD heat it up to about 800F and burn off all the ash, leaving metal behind.  BUT...this video provides me all the evidence I need to convince me that "the darned thing works".

Frantz Toilet Paper Oil Filter.  Yep. 

Youtube link: 

https://youtu.be/SPm4ANilR_o

15
Engines / Oil filtration
« on: March 29, 2022, 02:52:21 AM »
Folks- I thought I'd post a picture of a combination of what Butch recommended, as well as my adaptation.  I've used a toilet paper filter in my paint booth for years.  Works great.  No "fuzz" through the lines.

These toilet paper filters have been used for years on oiling systems.  Got this one, a "Frantz", new in the box.  As you'll notice, it's plumbed up quite nicely.  And, Butch recommended I feed lubrication to the second pump cam on this twin.  That jobs' now done. 

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