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Messages - skeeter

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31
Listeroid Engines / Re: 12/2 cooling system, round 2
« on: June 18, 2007, 06:58:59 PM »
Never thought of using a shell and tube inside the tank. I was going to use a coil of  7/8 or 1" or copper tubing,  or submerge a radiator inside the tank if I could find one that would fit. I guess I moved away from that idea when trying to come up with a plan to actually do it.  When standing next to my 80 gal tank, it started to seem like alot more trouble. Trying to figure out how I was going to actually "reach" the ports (near top and bottom), to make the bulkhead connections for the heat exchanger. I also started doubting my plan to adapt the existing ports to leak free bulk head fittings. Sitting here now, I must admit, maybe I shelved the idea too quickly, maybe their is an easy way to accomplish this. When standing in front of the tank, the job seemed a bigger pain in the butt then it does right now. I also must admit, I've really complicated this.

32
Listeroid Engines / Re: 12/2 cooling system, round 2
« on: June 18, 2007, 04:41:07 PM »
Quote
You of course want to maintain opposing flows thru the heatex to maintain an even delta across the plates for a steady transfer.

Oh no, their may be a problem with my system.  Although I don't know if its fatal.  After rethinking this, with thermosiphoning , I don't think I can satisfy the above requirement. In my sketch, hot water from the primary loop (engine), enters the heatx at the top port (circuit 1), and cool fluid from the secondary loop (tank), enters the heatx from the bottom port (circuit 2). This would seem to allow a large temp gradient across heatx, lowering effficiency. To do it optimally, I think I would need to raise the tank considerable. Tough with 7 1/2 ft ceilings.

33
Listeroid Engines / Re: 12/2 cooling system, round 2
« on: June 18, 2007, 03:58:44 PM »
cujet - Thanks for the response. I appreciate a different point of view on this. Maybe I got stuck on idea, an failed to consider even better alternatives. I guess I am bias towards a thermosiphon system because of its simplicity. My reasoning was, that without pumps in the primary (engine to heatx) and secondary (heatx to insulated tank) loops, if properly setup and bled, and coolant levels maintain, their was hardly anything that could go wrong except for a pump failure in the third (getting rid of the transferred heat in the insulated tank) loop. Because of the tanks relatively large volume, their would be some time to recognize the failure and shut it down, before catatrophic engine failur occurred. The "risks" that concerned me most in this system were, insufficient heat exchange capacity, and insufficient engine input/ output temp delta with available flow. Since the stock (although ported) coolant manifolds are being used,  I guess I'm assuming that these will not severly restrict flow (George's CD mentioned this as a possible pitfall). I believe the heatx I have, does have sufficient capacity. Enough of my idea, lets explore your.

I agree, small, efficient pumps are available. I also agree that the volume in the secondary loop could be significantly reduced, lowering the cost of anti-freezing it. By other type fluid in primary loop, are you thinking oil? Pumps would increase heatx efficiency. Can your suggestion be described as follows:

Primary loop - pump 1 output connected to cylinder coolant manifold. 195 deg thermostats on each cylinder. Output of head coolant manifold connected to top port of heatx (circuit 1), bottom port of heatx (circuit 1) connected to pump input. A reservour tank is teed into loop and positioned at a higher level to maintain fluid level.Primary loop contains fluid to reduce engine corosion.

Secondary loop -  pump 2 output connects to heatx bottom port (circuit 2), heatex top port (circuit 2) connects to my system tee/ gate valves (house baseboards, water/ air into garage, pool), cooler returning fluid to pump 2 input. A reservour tank is teed into loop and positioned at a higher level to maintain fluid level.





34
Listeroid Engines / Re: 12/2 cooling system, round 2
« on: June 15, 2007, 04:15:08 PM »
Quote
Same reason ancient wooden ships were sometimes clad in copper.

Gotta love this forum, ancient history to boot.

35
Listeroid Engines / Re: 12/2 cooling system, round 2
« on: June 15, 2007, 12:29:48 PM »
Tom - Now that's going to make it alright with my wife. She's obsessed with having a very clear pool. I guess I shouldn't talk this benefit up too much.

36
Listeroid Engines / Re: Cyllinder spacers
« on: June 15, 2007, 12:21:30 PM »
Yes, I was talking about the ones between the deck and cylinder. Thanks for the reply.

37
Listeroid Engines / Cyllinder spacers
« on: June 15, 2007, 12:04:40 AM »
This is probably a dumb question. I'm going to be putting my engine back together and noticed a few of the cylinder spacers are torn. Does anyone bother to get stock spacer sheets, or just use the old ones as a template to cut new ones up. Is their a particular type paper to use?

38
Listeroid Engines / Re: 12/2 cooling system, round 2
« on: June 14, 2007, 11:51:45 PM »
Ron - Very good point. That settles that.

39
Listeroid Engines / Re: 12/2 cooling system, round 2
« on: June 14, 2007, 09:31:51 PM »
If you're using the copper as an insert to reinforce your hose connections, it at least tells us that no notiable corosion takes place at normal pool temps. With elevated tubing temps, more corrosion will likely occur, but probably insignificant in my time span. And as you say, surface treatment is an option.

Electrically, the tubing going to the heat exchange will be PEX, a dialectric. The genset is well grounded, as is the whole electrical system. I will also make sure the case of the taco pump is grounded. I definitely won't allow any stray electrical paths to the pool.

40
Doug -

Ditto the other responses. The most reasonable way, is a battery/ inverter system. I'm not an expect, but have recently converted my house over to handle all 120v loads, and lighter 220volt loads.

The inverters these days, are quite flexible.  For instance, when mine detects an AC input, it automatically synchs to it then activates transfer relays to feed loads directly. If the battery bank need charging, it will proportion your available capacity to the charger & load. If your load increases to the point where the total of battery + load is greater then your genset, it will feather down the charge current to prevent overloading the genset.  If the load itself become greater then the genset, it will use the battery bank to aid the genset.  Mine can be programmed to autostart and auto turn off, along with alot of other features (not much good now, but maybe in the future), based on battery bank state or time. In short, as long as I'm their to start and stop the listeroid, everyone else thinks their hooked up to a utility "almost". The battery bank is the key. For my house, a 48V, 800 ah works. If I could have afforted it, I would have gone bigger. Almost, no matter what you get to handle your overall requirements, their will be system limits on peak load, unless you spend alot of money and really overkill it. The batteries will be a major cost. Do a good job in your load demand calcs, plan for the future.


41
Listeroid Engines / Re: 12/2 cooling system, round 2
« on: June 14, 2007, 03:45:06 PM »
Ron - Regarding the PEX tubing in the pool. I've been trying to come up with thermo transfer data for pex tubing. No luck so far. I'm a little concern with coppers reaction with chlorine, especially at elevated input temps, although it may not be that big a deal at these temps. Although not a good choice for heat exchanging in a smaller enclosed tank, pex might still be effective in a large body of water like a pool, having a 16000 gals, with temp never exceeding 85 deg. F at the surface.  I guess I just need a "ballpark" number, or a relative comparison to copper, to get an idea if the required coil footage is practical.

42
Listeroid Engines / Re: 12/2 cooling system, round 2
« on: June 14, 2007, 01:54:38 PM »
Quote
You of course want to maintain opposing flows thru the heatex to maintain an even delta across the plates for a steady transfer.

Ron - This is the part I've been wrestling with. Each loop will counter-flow with respect to the other, and with "enough" flow in each loop, their certainly is sufficient plate area to move the required btu's into the insulated tank. I guess what was causing me to question the whole thing is that both loops rely only on thermo-siphoning. I guess, as long as the flow is not serverly restricted by port openings, hose dia, or "flow resistance" in the heatex, and I keep air out of the system, I should be OK??

Quote
Where did you get your monster stainless heatex?

This is the amazing part. Originally, I was going to go with copper coils in the tank, but when I started considering the practical details of doing this, my plan change to using a very big shell and tube, or two smaller units. At this point, I didn't even consider using a plate heatex because of cost, very low volume, "flow resistance", etc... Just before I was about to get my big shell and tube, I happen to notice this thing on ebay, 8 minutes before the auction close, brand new, and going for less then one tenth of its retail price. I had to get it.

43
Listeroid Engines / Re: 12/2 cooling system, round 2
« on: June 14, 2007, 02:30:04 AM »
Ron - Thanks for the reply. The material of the plates and connections are 316 stainless steel. This is a 76 plate unit, with each plate having an area of 1.506 sq ft,  for a total of over 114 sq ft.  Regarding primary to secondary temp delta, I "think" I need to cool the primary fluid by 50 deg. F or more. Would I be correct in saying that even for an ideal heat exchanger, the water entering the heat exchanger from the secondary loop, would have to be 145 deg. F or colder, to maintain a max of 195 deg. F in the primary loop. Even though the heat exchanger is very large, it won't be ideal, so I should thermostatically control my pump, to limit the temp to 135 deg. F or lower, at the bottom of the insulated tank?? Please double check me on this.

Good point about the thermo transfer efficiency of the pex tubing.

phaedrus - I'll be sure to post the evolution, results and final coolant system arrangement I settle on.

44
Listeroid Engines / 12/2 cooling system, round 2
« on: June 13, 2007, 07:16:45 PM »
After three months of daily runs, I  pulled the heads last night to check for carbon buildup. Since I'm burning wvo, I did expect their would be some, and their was a little more then I expected. I attribute this to having insufficient temps during earlier runs (150- 170 deg. F), but with recent changes, I quicky get temp up to 220 deg F and maintain at injector. Hopefully their will be less  carbon in the future. Today, I'll pull cylinders and pistons and have a complete look at everything else. One observation was the oil, although still black, looked very clean. I guess a bypass filter is a good thing.

Now for the title subject. The major reason why I had to stop running, is the cooling temps. Coolant started to boil in the heads during the last few runs, at which time I had to decrease load significantly. I alwayed believed the "radiator" setup I was using was undersized, and would have to be replace eventually. With the increase in ambient temps, this became obvious. Now, I'd like to do what I wanted to do in the first place, heat exchange to a large, insulated tank of water, then use the collected heat. I know from previous discussions, their are many here who believe, this just isn't worth it. My own observation indicates, that at the load I'm usually carrying, their is a considerable amount of heat that can be captured.

My plane is to thermosiphon thru a very large flat plate heat exchanger (24" x 9 1/2" x 8 1/2", 2 1/2 ports reduced to 1 1/4"). Like before, I am planning to run 1 1/4" ID hose , from the stock coolant manifolds, with a healthy raise, to the heat exchanger ports. As before, 195 deg thermostats will be installed. The upper port coolant connection will contain a tee  just before heat exchanger port, to allow for a 1/4" hose connection to a reservoir above the heat exchanger. The other ports of the heat exchanger will connect to a 80 gal, insulated hot water tank, with the tank raised so connections are above heat exchanger port, to allow for effective thermo-siphoning. To cool the water in the insulated tank, the tanks second upper port will connect to a Taco pump, then to a couple of tees, each having gate valves. One tee connection will connect to a water to air heat exchanger, mounted almost flush to the wall with a louver openning, into my work shop/ wvo bulk storage area. This will help cool down the insullated tank fluid, heat wvo bulk tank when needed, and exhaust heated air into a much larger area. A second connection will connect to insulated pex pipe that will connect to a couple of baseboard radiators iin my house. A third port, when additional cooling is required in summer, will run out to a coil of 3/4" or 1" dia pex tubing, hung underneath the ladder in the pool.

I am planning to start implementing this in a few days,  and I'm definitely hoping for a sanity check before I start. The part of this that bothers me the most, is the low volume of water that will be contained in the primary cooling loop.

All comments are welcomed.

45
Listeroid Engines / Re: How to autostart a CS 6/1?
« on: June 07, 2007, 02:47:09 PM »
When I get a few more hours under my belt, I'm going to start giving serious thought regarding an autostart control system. The system would also included transducer inputs for auto-shutdown, to protect against overtemp, overspeed, and low oil, and due to my circumstances, change between fuel type used. The auto-start fuction would comprise of an interface between the xantrex inverter generator control functionality and the genset, allowing startup and shutdown based on inverter charger settings. Another feature I may add, is timed load control.  In my case, it would be used for turning on a pool pump in summer, or an electric heater element in winter, all in an effort to keep the genset loaded during charger tapers. I know that this would be a significant departure from the KISS point of view, but my hope would be to implement this without mocking up the inherent mechanical simplicity of the engine. My goal is to develop a system that could be allowed to perform much of its tasks automatically, while recognizing the system would still require monitoring/supervision.

This  particular subject is of interest to me, because the first building block is a solid electric start system.

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