I was just talking to Shadow (Stan) about making sure his engine is run right from the get go with a decent load. I can relate to the feeling of being anxious to start one of these engines but you will be sorry if you run it initialy unloaded for even a short time. It takes some heat to make heavy cast iron come to size and that big old piston to fit it's bore properly, valves to fit the guides, fuel to burn effectively etc. An example - our 6/1 running under a 2800 watt load operating at 190 degrees with our ball valve set to control convection flow through the upper cooling line will eventualy drop to 160 degrees if you take the load off it. One of our customers started his uncoupled 6/1 engine a number of times to show his friends how it was started/ran and his 6/1 slobbered for many hundred hours of loaded operation before the rings finaly seated in properly. Our own 6/1 demonstrator had barely reached 650 rpm on the wind up and we had 2500 watts on the plugs. It has a nice dry exhaust system to date with the exception of the incident. The only time it ever slobbered was when I was in a hurry to show  a customer it running and I stupidly poured oil for the valves from the jug. Glug glug oh shi....This single goof up took an hour of running to clear up and an hour 1/2 to wipe down the girlfriends Rav4! Thats why India provides us with an oil can and not an oil jug! It is always best to take your time and set things up properly. I would highly recomend having an electrician assemble or help you assemble your control panel with decent volt, amp, elapsed time and frequency meters, disconnect etc. so as to accurately adjust your engine rpm and so you know what you are throwing at it load wise. It's that darn Listeroid fever that tells us to start the thing before it's time! Gotta fight the temptation fellows.

Troy

Hi fellows!
Speaking of pumping water! Boy, am I a happy guy tonight! My Listeroid generator/water pump is pumping water for the entire neigborhood. All the dugouts were getting dangerously low as the Irrigation District shut off our main feed line. Once in  a while as we were filling our dugouts this one fellows field would flood if the ditch rider wasn't watching the flow closely enough. So last week they shut us off because one guy bitched. So the neigbor loaned his U35 Kubota excavator to me ( Have to highly recommend this particular unit to anyone wanting a small excavator) and I dug in a new feed line with pipe laying help from a few of the neighbors to connect to this massive dugout that the irrigation district gave us permission to tie into. This new line and set up was supposed to be a syphon system once we were done but the syphon would stop after about an hour or so. We have chalked this up to being a result of two many leaking valves as each of our 4 dugouts have their own shut off walve from the main line. We have tried everything possible to get this to work and have decided to pump instead. Anyhow. as we were all getting desperate for water we hooked up the one neigbors honda 5.5 3"x3" pump and it ran for 3 days until one of the guys filled it with bumble bees, wasps and water (kids can anyone here spell contaminated fuel?) Shortly after we drained, refueled and restarted this pump the engine began to smoke furiously and this left us sitting dry. So I have had my Lister demo unit collecting dust in the shop for a while as I have been so busy with other things lately (underground sprinkler system, deck railings etc. So I thought well here is an oportunity to see how well one of these 6/1's can pump water. I have this 6/1 coupled to an India made pump which I was told by GTC was the correct pump for matching to the slow speed Listeroid engine. This pump is designed to be run at 1440 rpm. I have it coupled to the Listeroid with a triple v belt and the pump is mounted on a 1/2" metal plate with a homemade heavy duty hinge for adjustment (as belts run in/stretch. I spent probably more time making belt guards than doing anything else but I just really wanted this thing to be safe to be around. This pump has an end of shaft support which makes the pump very beefy looking but at the same time should also make it last. It sure made it tough to make a belt guard for though! After we got the Lister generator/pumper unit set up at the massive dugout we discovered we had a failing footvalve. Once we got that footvalve fixed the pump immediately primed and began pushing water 1400 ft though 4" line. It is performing approx 20% better than the honda 5.5 did. I was just so happy to see water going in my dugout tonight that I just had to tell someone. Who better to tell than a mob of Listeroid fanatics! I am going to run her until 2:30 and then fire her up at 6:00 tommorow for a full day. It will probably take about 4 days to fill all these dugouts but it's certainly allready alot funner than listening to that honda Brrrrrrraaahhh al day. After seeing how well this Listeroid moves water I can certainly say - Don't be afraid to pump water with one of these things.

Troy   

Hi everyone!
I think Kyradawg came back to bite because he was beat up pretty baddly when he use to actively particapate on this forum. I almost can't blame him for wanting a little retaliation. He was just an fan of these engines and had is own ideas of what could be done with them. Whether he owned one really doesn't matter as there are others on here who have asked questions or had ideas that have never seen or touched a Lister/oid. Some of the very knowlegable people on this forum sometimes come off pretty hard on new posters and are indeed offending or intimidating many others who might post or ask a question. I often find myself wondering why this isn't just a little bit frendlier place? I think these attack like responses are why some have started new forums some of which are by invitation only. (invitation only! to me that doesn't sound like a forum it sounds like a cult!) He hee!  Things have kind of gotten off track here. Kyradawgs post (although a repost) was to point out that an engine can be purchased dirrectly from an Indian exporter for alot less than a importer/reseller can sell one to you for here in North America. Although he was missing some of the associated costs of importing an engine the main reason for this price saving is because the profit margin is missing. There are only a few manufacturers/assemblers of these engines that have offered to give exclusive reselling rights to a few North American importers (dealer network) and that there are many other India sellers willing and able to ship you one at the same wholesale price the importer pays. Yes many Indian exporters will gladly sell and ship you an engine and you will save money even after it's sitting in your driveway, but you will only understand why importers are charging what they do for these engines only after you have been through it yourself. The profits are really not as big as Kyradawgs price list or the newer one would make you think. My first order was for 4 GTC engines. When they were finaly sitting in the driveway I was alsmost in a state of shock that it was all finaly all over! I honestly remember thinking - GOD! what alot of stress, I would never do this for one engine. Kyradawg also pointed out the very low priced parts and it is very true, however when the North American importer chooses to be a dealer he want's his customers to be able to call him for an engine part he just can't wait for 3 - 6 weeks to come from India so there is a cost associated with having 2 crank shafts, 2 camshafts, cylinder heads, exhaust elbows etc to be sitting there on his shelf just in case! I recently had neen discussing and quoting a twin cylinder engine for a potential customer who later chose to import an engine and spare parts himself. I offered some importation advise and didn't see a reason to be upset after all I remember being there myself not so long ago. This same fellow later ordered an 15kw alternator from me a short time later. I guess where I am going with this is - Lets try to be there for each other instead of against each other. We are only here because we all like these engines. 

My girlfriend brought home Al Gore's movie - An Unconveniant Truth  I was very impressed, unimpressed and depressed. I think everyone on this planet needs to see this movie. Many here on this forum have taken either small or huge steps to reduce their impact or footprint on this planet and we all need to encourage our friends, families, and aquaintances to make real change. We don't need to wait for the gov. to do it for us. Every one of us gets a little enjoyment out of showing off our rebel works. I think more of us need to call our local papers and have it known what we are trying to do. With any luck, one day every home will be off grid except for maybe water and sewer. Troy Erler movie review- a three thumbs up!

Just thought I would ad my 2 cents here. I just picked up an original Lister 12/2 last Sunday and am in process of stripping it down. I only have the one 6/1 GTC engine I imported  and opened up to compare to but with all the talk here on the forum I thought the main crankcase castings on the originals were suposed to be far better than the india castings. this 12/2 has the big flywheels like the start Omatic but without the grooves. Near the hub or bore there are many very rough spots from the factory casting. My findings when i inspected the inside of my GTC 6/1 crank case interiors showed that the interior was  a smoother and cleaner casting than this old 12/2 original. When cleaning the old crud out of the crankcease intrior I was almost cutt multiple times on jagged ribs and sharp flashings. The exterior of the 12/2 is pretty good but does have some grinding marks from the factory here and there with no evidence of any putty or filler. Just a little work with an air sander and 3M brillo discs would make it look real nice. The GTC engines casting exteriors are smoothed over with bondo or some kind of finishing putty just like all the metal lathes and milling machines have been finished for many years. On these big body parts it isn't an issue really other than for eye appeal. Where I am now noticing a difference between the original Lister and the GTC Listeroid is that the smaller cast parts appear have a better cast finish. Perhaps they were invesment cast. A number of years ago, I tried to reinvent the tire bead axe incorporating the dead blow head feature from the common dead blow hammer with a bead breaker. (I'd post a picture if it was easy) The hoe portion on the proto type was cast for me in Calgary by a large and reputable casting firm. After recieving the finished part which they appeared to be proud of (I was not) especialy after paying someone to make this curvy wood plug a good sum of money. They suggested investment casting if I wanted a better looking part. After finding out what was needed for this type of molding I then made a mold from aluminum and it was sent to Winnipeg for investment casting. This is a process where they fill the female cavity with wax/ demold/ dip the wax part in a slurry and then sugar coat with a fine sand/ do this multiple times to create a thick cacoon/ drill a small hole/ heat cacoon and drain wax/ Then fill with desired cast material. The results were night and day and like comparing 2 pieces of fire wood - one with the bark on and one with the bark off. When i compare the smaller parts on these 2 engines such as the rockers on the original 12/2 to the rockers on the 6/1 GTC it is as if the parts on the 12/2 are investment cast. I don't know if they did this or not but am saying the quality is of this caliber. Of course at these prices for the India made engines we can't expect them to provide investment casting although I know they can do it over there and i am sure they would do it if we were willing to pay for it.

This post has been very educational that is asuming I have understood correctly. There are parents all over the planet paying large sums of money to send their little Johneez and Janzeez to universities to learn half of what i think I just learned here tonight. The best part of this post is that very good explanations and analogies have been presented and used by Guy as well as some raised question/argument against by others so that a hands on (so a not so good at school type fellow like myself) can visualize/grasp much of what has been written. I think what I have learned here tonight is that both a certain amount of heat and or usefull work can be achieved if given by the same amount of fuel burnt at a given rate of burn. The life of the engine and or components will change (increase or decrease) as the efficiency of mechanical work done (increases or decreases) or the losses of heat energy (increases or decreases) by the absorbsion of that heat in the mass of the work related engine components. If more mechanical work is being done by the burnt fuel than is lost in heat absorbsion of the engine parts as in a high reving diesel with light components, the engine could be said to be more efficient at doing work but that the working engine components can be expected to wear faster as they are unable to absorb enough of the lost heat energy (the duty rate goes down)  If the components of the engine are able to achieve a good balance of work done in relation to loss of heat through working engine component absorbsion (eg. As The slow running heavy pistoned 6/1 Lister does) The engines duty rate will go up given the same amount of fuel burnt. The longer lasting engine or engine with the higher duty cycle is the one that is able to achieve a good balance between the amount of work produced with its ability of its compnents to absorb the wasted heat effectivly. This is why HP is heat and heat is wear! The old rule of - for every action there is a reaction (eg. The lighter piston will achieve a higher rate of motion or speed than the heavier piston will which is why piston speed determines rate of wear or duty cycle of the engine) This means the energy which couldn't push the larger piston as fast was lost into heat or absobsion into the components in the imediate vicinity. As guy says the rules of physics can not be anything other than what they are know as. As in a marriage or relationship between a man and woman (No I aint gonna be politicaly correct here) (I believe in Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve!) if there is balance, there is better chance for long life.  I think I have understood correctly as this is what I got from all this? If I have mis underunderstood I will re read and accept my (F) on my report card. One thing I do know for sure is that polishing a piece of fecees is a waste of energy! By the way,Thanks Guy for the educational experience! 

If bronze was the choice material to use for the idler gear I think the original Lister CS engines would have used it. As Guy basicly says he couldn't see any way to engineer it to be more reliable. The old saying -There is no replacement for diplacement    (should have had added)   and proper metalurgy. Those bronze gears will need to be replaced many times with engines puting in long hours and will no doubt one day be at best described as sacraficial. If there was a failure of the idler gear teeth the bronze gear, it wouldl be like chewing on fresh raisin bran cerial verses steel idler gear fragments being like that of chewing on 10 year old raisin bran cerial. somethings gotta give. (usualy a tooth) I however, see no reason why this idler gear should ever fail if made from a good carbon steel that is heatreated properly. I mentioned it here once before that I have seen bronze worm drives in small bandsaws well submerged in gear oil that wear right out with no where near the hours or loads that these idler gears are expected to see. A high quality carbon steel casting with proper heat treatment is the only proper answer. Sorry I have no data to offer. Just thought it needed to be said. And as I never want to be accused of being a party pooper I need to provide a solution. What we maybe need to do is have a company like standard gear in Saskatoon make some serious idlers as replacements. I will bet they would last. If we had a hundred or so made they would be reasonably priced. What do you think?

Hey there XYZER!
If you look at the Raycor website you will see what an 120AT fuel/water separator looks like. Raycor is famous for quality and very well accepted in the marine industry. This unit uses a spin on replacable cartridge and has a clear bowl so you can see when it need the water drained off. These are often mounted on Kubota, Perkins and smaller gensets.The 120 fits as close to perfect as one can get on the Listeroid! Fits in the same location as the stocker inside the flywheel and right on the side of the cylinder. Cartridges are available in 2, 10 and 30 micron. You will need to drill and tap 2 new 12/24 holes into the cylinder mount pad just above the existing holes that hold the stock fuel filter.You will also need to borrow a flaring tool to flare the stock lines and will need a couple of 1/4" flare nuts to re couple the lines to the new filter housing. The stock fuel line on my motor were just long enough to cut, flare and re mount. I do have a picture of one mounted on a 6/1 on my website but I don't think I should post it here as I would have a commercial interest and do sell these filters. These filters are available from many diesel shops and should be available locally for you. Good luck to you.

Troy