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Topics - jtodd

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Other Slow Speed Diesels / My "new" Lister SR1

« on: May 01, 2007, 06:23:47 AM »

So, I've made another terrible mistake (at least, as far as my bank account is concerned) and purchased a Lister SR1 with generator head. It's got a 12v start loop, so it's "auto-start" but not "auto-shutdown" to some degree, though the operator still needs to set the compression release and fuel settings to start. Better than the crank, at least. :-) Seems to run fine, but is LOUD for engine noise. The muffler pretty much removes the sound from the exhaust, but the noise coming from the engine is pretty steep, and it vibrates well enough to rattle the earthworms out of the ground.

http://www.loligo.com/lister/lister-sr1/pictures/

I've already taken the engine off the base and I'm going to get the base cleaned up first (I'll do the easy, high-visibility cleanup here first - makes me feel like I'm making progress) and then I'll take the generator off and start blasting/painting the other components. Any gotchas on this engine? Has anyone ever seen this type of semi-auto-start configuration, or is this typical? Anyone know where manuals can be found? (brief look at the oldengine.org site doesn't show any.)

JT

Original Lister Cs Engines / Hydraulic gib key puller - hints

« on: April 09, 2007, 01:29:46 PM »

I have an old Lister/Blackstone CD design single-cyl engine I'm restoring. To get the single flywheel off, I've discovered that the gib key is being a bit obstinate. I built a hydraulic gib key puller based on some ideas I've seen in other areas of the message board here, using 2 1/2" schedule 40 pipe and a 1/2" thick mild steel plate bolted to the end that I CNC plasma-cut to fit around the key (this has been a good excuse to learn how to use the robotic cutter.) After giving a few days to some penetrating oils, I gave it a shot. No luck.

My questions are:

1) for those of you that have used hydraulic pullers for gib keys, how many tons was the pump/cylinder rated for? The cylinder I have been attempting with is a 4 ton unit. 8000 pounds seems like a pretty good amount of tugging power, but it's a Horrible Freight hand-pump unit so it might be not giving what I think it is. I'm debating trying to rent a larger unit but I don't know if I'm barking up the wrong tree here.

2) It seems that I could just get some larger pipe, and press the flywheel more towards the engine to loosen the grip. The problem is that the backing for such an operation would be the other side of the crank, and if I bent the crank then I'm really up a creek. Is there some clever way to do this? The only way I could think of was to tap the flywheel end of the crank with some BIG threads, and then use that and some creative pipe and plate assembly to mount another hydraulic cylinder to press the flywheel in away from the gib key. Has anyone ever had success with pressing the flywheel in way from the key to "start" the process?

PS: This is a 2 1/4 shaft on this engine and a really weird gib key size. I've got components to fit on the other side for a drive pulley (an SK-bushing v-pulley) and I'm going to have to mill a "custom" key to mate the SK keyway to the shaft. Very disconcerting.

JT

Lister Based Generators / Acceptable cooling jacket/water pressure

« on: February 16, 2007, 08:37:45 PM »

I'm building an "open" cooling system, with a fairly large Freightliner radiator (no fan) as my cooling matrix for my Lister-based generator. On top of this, I have an "overflow" reservoir, which allows me to fill the system and allow for expansion/contraction but at the same time not have a very large surface area for evaporation (I don't want to be minding this system for water levels, though I also have a float alarm set up in the tank.) (expansion tank not in picture)

http://www.loligo.com/listeroid/pictures/6.html

My question is this: I've got about 6 feet of head between the bottom of the water jacket at the gasket (the lowest part in the system) and the very top of where I expect I will be filling the overflow reservior. A quick calculation to determine head pressure gets me this for static head calculation for water:

[psi of head] = [0.052] * [8.3 pounds per gallon] * [6 feet of head]

This gives me 2.58 PSI at the lowest part of the system, with gravity as the only pressure. Is this too much? Will the gaskets weep unacceptably at that pressure? This is for an "original" Lister 16/2. I've never seen anyone with a very tall radiator assembly, but I also can't say I've seen the full spectrum of setups that people are using.

JT

Original Lister Cs Engines / New Lister 16/2 - unlikely discovery, inspection questions

« on: February 03, 2007, 12:58:00 AM »

I'm looking to purchase an original Lister 16/2 that has been in storage for a while. I'd like to inspect the engine before I hand over my payment, and I'm hoping there are some tricks that can be passed to me so I don't get handed someone else's problem child.

My questions are:
- on an "original" Lister 16/2, what specific issues should I be aware of during inspection?
- his there some magic method that anyone knows of to determine relative number of hours for the engine, based on some wear indicator that is easily examined externally?
- what should I look for that may have gone wrong during storage?

My ultimate suspicion is that this is "too good to be true" so I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop, like finding it was stored under a leaky ceiling tile or something and is rusted beyond repair. I won't be able to start it up on site, so it's "buyer beware" I'm afraid.

JT

Other Slow Speed Diesels / Lister-Blackstone CD - data needed

« on: January 26, 2007, 05:33:21 PM »

I purchased a Lister-Blackstone CD diesel engine at an estate sale a few months ago, and I'm finally getting around to bringing it to life.

I know about the CD-style datasheets on the Oldengine.org site (http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Technical/CDP1data.htm) but the Lister-Blackstone I have apparently doesn't match any of those exactly. My engine has the following specs:

- lever-based compression changeover (three "notches" or settings)
- made in the US ("Wisconsin")
- has a single flywheel (the crank only sticks out on one side, so this isn't a "retrofit" - there are two small offset drive pulleys on the other side)
- 8hp according to build plate
- 1200 RPM according to the build plate
- intake and exhaust on opposite sides of engine
- single injector (which matches, of course, the single cyl)

I'm still removing it from it's mounts and cleaning it before startup, but any advice anyone has on this engine or resources they could point me to would be really appreciated. As a baseline, here are some of my questions:

- how much oil does it take?
- how, exactly, do I operate the compression switchover lever during startup?
- any idea where specs for spare parts can be found, if I need them? (rings, bearings, valves)
- how to determine build year?
- are these BSW for the bolts/nuts/threads or ...?

I'll try to get some pictures this weekend when I'm doing work on it.

JT

Everything else / Water and fuel filters: questions on fuel pressures/flow

« on: December 14, 2006, 12:45:57 AM »

I've been looking at some water/fuel filters, and I'm having some doubts over the effectiveness of their abilities, or at least of the ones that I'm commonly seeing on eBay which seem to be of high quality (Racor). Example - this Racor 777R has a heater in it, and the auction says it separates the water out by centrifuge. That would imply a quickly-spinning rotor of some type.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Fuel-Filter-Water-Separator-W-Heater-RACOR-777R_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ50466QQihZ010QQitemZ200057060528QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

My question is this: I didn't think that even at a maximum of probably somewhere around .5gph that this would be sufficient to do any rotor-spinning, and it is unclear to me that there is any electrical activation of the centrifuge. What, exactly, provides the energy to spin a centrifuge at a speed sufficient to get water and fuel to separate? Will the fuel pump that comes on my 12/2 be up to the task? Personally, I doubt it, so I have my doubts about this type of water separation filter. However, I have not used one so I can't say if it works or not - I'm just guessing. Can anyone with more than guesses chime in?

JT

Everything else / Starting RPM for crankover plus bonus DC-DC question puzzle

« on: November 23, 2006, 12:18:08 AM »

I'm building an electric starter for my 12/2 Listeroid. Part of the challenge for the starter sub-system is finding the appropriate motive force to get the engine turned over. As mentioned in another thread (http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=805.0) I almost had a solution with an aircraft starter/generator, but it's the wrong rotation and design constraints keep me from simply rotating the SG around to face the other way. Thus, I'm looking to see what other motors I could use as a starter/generator, but I need a few details to actually discover how to make things work. Notably, I need to find out:

- what is the minimal RPM the flywheel needs to spin on a "typical" 12/2 style engine before compression engagement? (i.e.: "How fast do you crank it before it starts?") This will tell me what kind of engine I need, and/or what size pulley. My engine is currently in the core of a very large welding project for construction of the chassis, and I can't start it up right now to experiment for myself.

- how many "horsepower" is the average arm that is cranking the engine? This will tell me what size, roughly, of an engine I need after I learn how to do the calculations on rotational torque. I don't need to be exact here, but a ballpark is fine and I haven't the slightest clue how to determine this.

Lastly, an electrical question for the idle electro-mechanical engineers out there: I've found treadmill motors that run on 130vdc that have 2hp of power at 25amps, have a 100% duty cycle, and seem like good candidates for such a starter/generator. However, they run on 130vdc. I have 24vdc @900 amps or 12v @1800 amps (yes, you read that correctly) for starting - two Optima 900 amp D31T cells in parallel or series. Is there any easy way to convert to 130vdc at a lower amperage and go vice-versa for charging? I've never seen a device that does this at these voltages/amperages.

JT

Lister Based Generators / Progress in my 12/2 engine setup (pictures)

« on: November 06, 2006, 12:24:54 AM »

So I'm making some headway on my 12/2-based generator setup. I figured that since metal is actually being welded, maybe it's time to start keeping some pictures on-line.

It's a 12/2 Powersolutions (Jkson) engine, with an ST-10 head. The pictures are just of the base; there is a huge amount of other stuff that will be bolted/welded to the base, but its a starting point. What is in the current set of pictures is of the I-beam skid base, which will be coated in truck bedliner material. Everything above the engine bottomline will be stainless. (I really hate rust, and this will be sitting outside for much of it's life, though the engine and other components will be protected.)

Yes, I am using vibration mounts. I don't particularly care what other people say at the moment about this method; I'm going to try it. If it doesn't work, I'll add a few more in areas that I think will dampen the harmonics by placing them in locations that are hopefully out-of-phase. I've also got 120 pounds of lead shot to fill some of those structural tubes, so that also may help the situation. Lastly, I have some rotational vibration dampeners but I'll experiment with those when I get the rest of the system running with all components bolted in place. Other people have reported good luck with the JKson engines, so I'm hopefully not going to need much in the way of vibration control.

The tube segments bolted in on the corners of the skid are for jacking points (Hi-Lift jacks) so I can get it onto or off of it's casters easily, and also so that I can have some convenient hoist points, tow points, or equipment attachment locations for other stuff to hang off the chassis.

Total estimated weight when completed: 5500 pounds (2494 kg) This includes a 100 gallon fuel system (but no fuel in that weight estimate,) radiator system, starter/generator, safety shields, electrical sub-panel, starter batteries, and a lot of other extra features and junk that would wear my fingers down to type. I've spent a lot of time thinking about what is possible to think about, but much of this is "fly as you go" though, since the way parts go together is only obvious when the other parts have been welded into place. It'll be another few months before it's done.

http://www.loligo.com/lister/pictures/

JT

Lister Based Generators / Mail-order source for SK taper-lock bushings?

« on: October 20, 2006, 01:29:39 AM »

I'm in need of an SK 42mm bushing to hook my ST-10 to the flywheel/pulley that I recieved from Mike at Listeroids.com. I've been unable to find one on-line. McMaster Carr doesn't quite have the right sizes, and their tech support can't special order it. I've found lots of SAE sized taper lock SK bushings, but not in metric at 42mm. Google hasn't given me much to go on, I'm afraid. Anyone know of a website or phone number I can call to get a part delivered? (I know I might be able to find one at my "local bearings and gear store" but I don't really have that geographic luxury at the moment.)

JT

Lister Based Generators / Good wire source needed

« on: July 10, 2006, 08:28:17 PM »

I've been looking for good wiring for my Listeroid project. I have a bunch of 12vdc wiring requirements (gauges, control circuits, work lights, etc) that will need to be wired into the rig I'm building. However, I'd like these wires to be biodiesel-proof, good-quality wires - not the $1.00 spool of NAPA wire that will get eaten the first time I spill some fuel on it, or that will turn brittle and flake after some sunlight exposure. I'm going to be crimping/soldering all the ends and sealing with heatshrink, and all the connectors will be electrolytic-grease fitted for good measure.

I just need wiring for 12vdc or control wires - I have a different source for the mains that lead out of the generator, so this doesn't need to be particularly hefty wire.

I'd also be interested in anyone that has a good-quality source for wire ends (ring ends or spade lugs) that don't have junk-plastic sheaths and that are made to higher quality standards than that which is found in the local automotive store odds-and-ends bin. Once I build this thing, I'd like it to run for 30 or 40 years without having to re-do the electrics. I frequently find machines built in the 1940's whose mechanical portions of the electrical system beat anything made today, and I'm hoping to emulate some of the quality that I see in older equipment.

I have the 12vdc fuel heater from Fattywagons, which has great wiring on it that says that it's fuel-proof. However, a few messages to the seller has resulted in no replies so I'll try the rest of the list and there is no manufacturer name on the wires. I'm looking for model numbers or names of the wiring manufacturer, and even better would be a place to purchase it retail (Internet or in person...)

JT

Lister Based Generators / Cutoff (not transfer) switch questions

« on: May 11, 2006, 06:52:25 AM »

I'm not terribly well-versed in the electrical arts, but I have a pretty good idea of what I would like to implement. I'm sure that there exist solutions for what I'm describing, but I'm hoping that what I want exists in an inexpensive package instead of as a sub-set of features to some other, larger and more expensive system which I don't need.

Here's the problem: if for some reason my diesel motive plant (12/2) fails, then I will experience a situation where the flywheels and generator slowly spin down to a stop. During this spin down, voltage drops in a curve over time, which is VERY unfriendly to most equipment that I'm familiar with and tends to fry things in unexpected ways. I'd like to have a system downstream from my generator that just chops off my output voltage and keeps it off in the event of some upstream problem (generator, motor, wiring, etc.) "100% no power" is better than "sort-of no power."

Think of this as a transfer switch that doesn't transfer. Does such a thing exist as a 1/2 transfer switch? If so, who makes them? Or should I just buy a transfer switch? Does anyone have a website or pointers for a vendor for either direction? While I appreciate technical descriptions, I expect that I won't probably build this myself and will end up buying it. I know what I'm good at, and there are too many strange variables in electrical systems for me to say that I'll become an expert at the cost of my computers, televisions, refrigerators, or life.

Here are some possible solutions. Most of them are probably flat out wrong, but I'll take comments on what would work if anyone knows of a product or method that is along these lines:

- a power conditioner. Not only would this provide a more clean power output from the genset, but perhaps it would just drop to zero volts if it was unable to provide it's rated output. The downside is that these things suck quite a bit of power (not sure how much, but I recall at least 20% from my days spent with computing gear that used them.)

- a voltage-detecting breaker. I don't know if this exists. If voltage moves between 0 and 110vac and stays up for more than X seconds, then the breaker "sets" itself. If after that time, input voltage input drops below 110vac for more than X seconds, then the breaker trips and requires that voltage drops to 0 for X seconds before resetting. (Of course, 110vac might be 120vac, or some other value.)

JT