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Messages - gadget

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76
Waste Vegetable Oil / Re: Guide to using Veg oil.
« on: October 01, 2019, 02:32:41 PM »
Hey Glort, I finally had some time to read through your PDF. Let me just say you have some great ideas. I wish I had read this years ago when I was running WVO in my diesel cars.

Your drying method is brilliant. I think it could also be done in other wasy to suit different needs and equipment. I always hated the idea of heating the oil to boil the water out. What a waste of energy to dry it that way. You are taking advantage of the air ability to do all the work for you. Its the same principle of an evaporative cooler, using the phase change of the water and dry air to your advantage. Do you use an evaporative cooler for cooling your house where you live? If so, I would love to show you my 2 stage cooler I am working on for my house.

I also now see what you mean about not needing to preheat the oil before injection. Good point on the oil temp in the injector before it is sprayed.

PDF should be pinned. A must read for anyone getting into waste oils.

Thanks,
Gadget

77
Listeroid Engines / Re: Gadget's DES 8/1 Stamford build
« on: September 29, 2019, 03:18:12 PM »
I am hopeful its a good one. Casting does look good so maybe I got lucky with the machine work too.

I was planning on using one of the steel oil drums at work for hot tanking. They are epoxy lined and should hold up to the lye. I am going to lower the case in using an engine hoist and add just enough water to cover it a couple of inches. I'm guess it will be about 25-30 gallons of water. I'm thinking maybe 1 lb of lye?? I have an 1,000 watt emersion heater that I'm going to heat the solution with. I'm guessing it will take many hours to warm up. Is it common to bring it to boil? I'm planning on removing 99% of the paint and outer white putty before I tank it. I hope the solution can take off the white gunk on the inside. I will then pressure wash it and then paint the inside with the copper winding paint and high temp engine enamel for the outside.

78
Listeroid Engines / Re: Gadget's DES 8/1 Stamford build
« on: September 29, 2019, 05:03:24 AM »
The bolt trick did work well but it does damage the bolts as you get towards the end of the threads. Small price to pay I guess. Working as a mechanic you get use to improvising.


The motor stripped down pretty easily. I also started stripping the paint with some left over adhesive remover I had. I also started scrapping the inside. I hope to have it hot tanked soon. I was surprised at how well the casting is so far. I was expecting a couple of holes and such.


They where kind enough to leave me with plenty of sand inside the case, allot more then I expected.


I noticed the bottom casting have some over hang. I'll take the grinder to the excess before I hot tank. It looks like it is designed to have the 4 corners lower then the sides

79
Listeroid Engines / Gadget's DES 8/1 Stamford build
« on: September 28, 2019, 02:52:22 AM »
I decide to start a thread on my build. Originally I was going to build a 6/1 with an ST5 gen head. After talking with Gary at D.E.S. I went with an 8/1 and a Stamford clone generator. It seems like there is allot of work to get the ST generators working good and I thought it would be best to just go with a turn key head that has know clean power. Its much more $ but its worth it for me so I can focus on getting the motor dialed in.

I'm thinking of running this thing in a dual speed configuration. 300-400ish RPM for 12v/24v DC charging and/or running a belt drive vacuum pump for my freeze dryer. 850 RPM when running the genhead.

Something to consider if your going to order a kit on a pallet, make sure you have a forklift to unload or pay for a shipping truck with a lift gate. There is no way to unload the pallet and lift out by hand. The short block with the wheels on and the gen head are way to heavy. The gen I got weighs 200lbs.

Mine came as a short block in a crate on a pellet with all the parts boxed up


After I removed the pallet sides I took off the flywheels. I used a bolt and nut to put pressure on the keys to remove them. They where pretty tight so I gave them a gentle shake while they where under pressure with an air hammer. It took 4 consecutive length bolts to get them loose enough. After I got the keys out, I scrapped the paint off the shaft and gave it a light sand with emery cloth and oil till they where clean before removing the wheels. One flywheel came off easy the other did not. I used a bottle jack carefully placed against a strong part of the case(under light pressure) while taping with a rubber mallet on the opposite side. It took about 20 mins to get the second flywheel off. I had a second person helping me.



So far this clone is looking pretty good for a listeroid. I'm going to start stripping the out paint off and taking it completely apart


I'm going to tear it down and clean it up here at work. I'm a mechanic and can work on it when I'm not busy. I will assemble it at home. I took the genhead home to wait for the motor to be finished. This stamford clone looks very well made so far. Pulley looks to have some good weight to it. Its rated continues duty @8.8kw. Its over kill for my motor and should give many years of good service


This will be a slow going build till I get caught up on another project.

80


Please don`t paint it pink! several years ago I was painting a crankcase and was running out of red oxide primmer, I had a tin of grey primmer and decided to mix the two together, I didn`t dare post the photos as I would probably have got thrown off the forum for being a dangerous extremist, a homosexual or a communist or some combination of all three.  :laugh:

Bob


Reminds me of one of my favorite Cary Grant movies Operation Petticoat with the pink submarine. They had to mix gray and red primer and had to leave port before they could paint it gray. Great movie

81
Waste Motor Oil / Re: Why it is bad to use motor oil as fuel !.
« on: September 27, 2019, 04:46:07 AM »
That was a great video. Boss was probably gone that day.

I went to an auto/diesel tech school back in the 90's. We had a large covered area with dozens of different diesel engines on stands that where started daily. There was a sideways 8V71 detroit with twin turbos and a roots style super charger. Well, a student was setting the injector racks and the teacher did not check for fuel return before starting it. Basically he held it full fuel to start but when it started it stayed in fuel fuel. I was about 20 feet away. I will tell you that thing put out so much smoke, with in a few seconds, I could not see anything. You could feel the ground shaking. Those near ran away and the teacher stayed, taking off the valve covers and was able get the fuel shut off. It seamed like it took at least a minute. He's lucky the supercharger didn't explode next to his head. The engine noise was impressive. The tale tale on the tach read just under 4,000 RPM which is allot for that motor.

82
The outside of the case is irrelevant in my mind, but I've seen here that others process their crankcase via garbage can or drum filled with hot lye and it seems to do a good job. 

I'd skip stripping the wheels, myself.

We wish Rajkot would use Bondo.  What I've seen on the two engines I've gone over is a white chalky substance that seems like spackle. I'm not kidding. 

A large carbide burr works wonders on the cast iron, but is quite spendy.  My neighbors 8/1 crankcase had areas of sharp casting flash left inside on mold seams. The carbide burr cut like butter for shaping and smoothing around openings and such, stones were quite slow going but OK for smoothing.  I concur with the other poster that for low speed engines, porting is pointless for performance, but there is no harm in it so while cleaning up castings, why not clean up the gross obstructions and misalignment was my attitude.

I made hardwood Vee blocks for testing cam shaft runout on my cast iron table saw top with a dial gauge. Crude but effective.  Kudos to 38ac for addressing this so well, it was NOT a waste of time.

Does the hot tanking with lye take off the outer paint? I've decide to remove all the paint. If I don't, it will drive me crazy everytime I look at it. I was thinking of soaking the outside with paint stripper before I hot tank it.

I have taken a burn to engine blocks before, mostly just on the casting seam. I will definitely go after the looser casting areas before hot tanking.

83
I just emailed Gary about the iron piston.

So is it bests to also completely strip the outside of the case of all paint bondo? How about the flywheels and other parts? I was thinking this would be the best route to go since I'm going to be cleaning out the inside anyway.

84
Valves,  does your head have seats ?  if not, have some installed, maybe the 6/1 seats fit (Detroit Diesel series 92 valve seats )

I didn't see any seats. It may be an upgrade for down the road.

I did notice my piston is not aluminum. Anyone ever get an 8/1 with an iron piston?

85
To be honest, I was using that term loosely since I don't have the measuring tools to do a full blue print. It is comforting to hear that they are not that bad from India as I thought. The crank moved very smoothly on the one I have. I blue printed a Toyota 2LT diesel once but that was in a machine shop with all the tools.

Here is what I am thinking cause I do want it up and running sooner rather than later,

Clean out the crankcase and paint
Balance the flywheels to each other and the keyway
Balance out as much bounce if needed
clean up fuel lines
check valves for seal (brake clean method)
port heads (more on this below)
set timing( not sure best method for this yet)
Fix slop in idler gear(its pretty wobbly and lots of back lash in some positions)
round out cooling port on head and add thermostat
Check rings end cap
maybe check bearing clearances with plastic gauge
Something to do with the gaskets between the block and cylinder????
What else am I missing?

I ported cylinder heads for a living many moons ago for a very well know company that sold turn key heads out of hot rod magazines.I  have a very vast knowledge base in this area. I can tell you there should be some good gains, at least with the head I got. There is chunks of casting protruding into the port about 3/8". To be honest probably doesn't matter much to most setups but I am at 4,400 feet and am looking to help make up for my altitude. I would be happy with a 10% increase or atleast make up for the elevation here.

You all have giving me encouragement. I was mentally ready for worst case scenario to get this thing going.

86
Hi Gagget and congratulations on your recent acquisitions. You are a lucky man to have such an understanding Wife, I would be tempted to do a deal with her, for every power outage where she is still able enjoy the the luxury of electricity you get one xmas present back.

My Wife is slightly less understanding and believes that I am a deluded old fool living in my own little world! At the end of this month she is going to New Zealand with her Brother for ten days, while she is away I intend to build the new shed for my Lister CS. Once that is done I will have to move the CS into position and commission it.

Casting sand has always been the problem with Indian Listeroid engines, I have even found some in my original Lister CS. Get it stripped down and clean everything until it shines. Glyptal or equivalent treatment to all internal surfaces

Perhaps we can share our experiences and post a lot of photos of how to do it/not do it for the benefit of members.

Bob

Yes I have an amazing wife. She loves my projects. I only build things that benefits my family in some way or another. She is a prepper so that goes along way. Good luck with the shed build. Did you just build up your motor? How did it go?

I can deal with casting sand. I just hope to get good usable castings all around. Do most just clean out the crankcase and paint over the outer factory paint? I was thinking of stripping everything down to bare metal but I'm kinda scared of what I may find LOL. I noticed allot of bondo but they put it on so poorly I think it might look nicer if I stripped it with some paint remover. I like the idea of coating the inside of the crankcase. I have no doubt these castings can weep oil. I've seen it on cars before.

I asked my kids what color we should paint it and my daughter has requested pink. She assures me it will look very nice. Has anyone done a barbie theme yet?

I am planning on doing a build thread with lots of pictures. I have done many build threads in the past. I'm doing one right now on a wood heater for my green house here;

http://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/3552/el-tornado-experimental-build-thread

It has to get done before I can really get going on my motor cause winter is coming fast.

-Gadget



87
Christmas came early this year. Wife says this is my presents for the next 5 years.

Engine was exactly what I expected from reading about them. I found some sand right away just by pocking around the crankcase with my pocket knife while still  in the crate.


Took a quick peak at the the cylinder head because I was curious about doing some port work. Definitely going to do some work there. Worst port I have ever seen. That frown face looks like it was a long trip from India


I ended up swapping the ST head for a Stamford clone. I'm very grateful to Gary for doing that for me since it was already on the pallet.  After much reading I am very glad I did. I want to focus on getting the motor blue printed and thought a turn key gen head would be better. The more I read about the ST problems the less the price difference bothered me. Plus I want a good clean waveform and I like the idea of no brushes. It looks really well built from the outside. Its way over rated but they don't make anything much smaller.

88
Other Slow Speed Diesels / Re: Bamfords Z2 completed
« on: September 10, 2019, 04:08:43 AM »
What has happened here? 38ac appears to have started this thread with the letter R and concluded it with the letter F. Do we have a server glitch?

Bob

I was just reading through the WOK/ indian engine build thread and saw the same thing. Hopefully data has not been lost/damaged

89
Listeroid Engines / Re: I thought I was a bit ......
« on: September 10, 2019, 03:53:31 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqoTgewlDkI

I will show it to my wife puts things in perspective

Thats a good idea! See honey, my projects are not out of control...look at this guy. I am a firm believer in using others as examples to help lower the bar.

I think what we are seeing here is what happens once all the kids have grownup and the husband gets kicked out to the garage. Retirement bliss...I love the bored dogs crashed on the lawn. This guy will have everything in the hose running off belt drive and will survive the apocalypse.

90

I ran a diesel rabbit pickup many years ago on veggie oil. It worked really well except I don't think I was filtering it or drying it enough.

There was a lot of bad information on using Veg oil. I saw idiots on YT " Filtering " their oil through a perforated Cleaning cloth straight into their tank.
Can't begin to think why that didn't work!   ::)

Not many people do dry their oil but I have always held that out to be of paramount importance. There can be endless problems with wet oil  from growths in the tank, to loss of power to blocked everything and Corroded IP's and Injectors. If you tried to tell people putting Diesel in their engine that had water dissolved in it was OK they would tear you a new one. Why people think putting an alternative fuel in their engines that has water in it I'll never know!

I always have filtered my fuel to either 5 or 1 UM. Pump diesel is filtered to 10Um so my oil was twice to 10 times as clean as commercial Diesel.
I always dried the oil oil to give NO bubbles in a Hot pan test. Again I exceeded that because -MY- test was to be able to add 2-3 Drops of water to cup full of oil, stir it up and STILL have it pass the HPT.

I actually believe having Dry oil is more important than having  clean oil.

Quote
I have lots of questions and may start a new thread in the WMO subform. Its all pretty much about the ASH.

Thinking about ash stopped me from getting into the waste oil thing for some time.  I tested different things by putting them in a spoon and burning them over a blowtorch.  Diesel, Kero, Turps etc all burn with NO residue. Veg, WMO and some fats leave a residue. WMO leaves a LOT of residue.
The oils phase change though when you burn them.  First the lighter fractions burn off and you are left with a sticky black material that is like a concerntrated grease. Burn it a bit more and it hardens up and becomes carbon. Push the burn Further and it will burn like charcoal and leave a white powdery ash same as grey wood ash. My belief is that if you burn the oil completely, it turns to the talk like ash and is simply exhausted out the tail pipe.

If you don't burn it completely ( Over fuelled, late timing , poor compression etc) then you can get deposits on the rings of the piston or at the back of the valves and the engine dies.  Water injection prevents this and keeps the internals of an engine sparkling clean by effectively steam cleaning it.
Old deposits are removed, new ones are prevented from forming. With a proper set up Water injection system, a person would have to try REALLY  hard to bugger an engine up using WMO/ WVO.  WI just makes so many potential problems with running oil disappear.
You don't need anything fancy either, I diy system for $30 will work perfectly.

Ash is just not a problem I have heard of in a LOT of years playing with this. Carboning rings is a big one but if you set an engine up properly and operate it sensibly, you are most likley never to have a problem.
If You fit a WI system, you can do the same as me and break a whole bunch of rules  related to using veg oils and the vehicle won't even hiccup in the slightest. WI really is that good in this application.

 

Quote
I'm planning on using WMO when I don't have any WVO to use. This project is centered on running "free" fuel. I can get all the WMO I want. I'm hoping to secure some WVO.
 

Ed has been running " Sump gunk " for some years now and the addition of WI extended his de carbon tear downs to.... Well I can't remember him reporting having to do it for decoking since fitting the WI.  It will work successfully and long term, like anything else, just need to set it up properly.
Most people find WMO easier to get than Veg but depends where you are. Here I can get any amount I want.

Quote
It may not be practical to try and use exhaust heat for distilling, definitely not for thermal cracking. I have learned over the years with projects to weigh the work vs rewards and keep it simple.
Cracking is a considerable bit of time and effort. If you can only get really poor oil then I'd say might be worth it. Otherwise, just making sure the WMO is well filtered and completely dry should be more than enough for a Lister especially if you have WI working.

Quote
If you want to check out my freeze dryer I did a build thread here under the user gadget. It gets good about the second and third page;
https://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=234062

You certainly seemed to take that further on a DIY level than had been done before.
Do you have a suitable compressor for belt driving to suit your needs.  If not, perhaps another way to look at this would be run the engine to power either a generator head or an alternator Running through a battery and an inverter. Would depend on the size of the electric motor you are running but could be a cheaper/ easier alternative if sourcing a compressor is difficult.

Quote
I am liking the ideas of a belt driven freeze dryer off the lister. If I run one batch for 5 days that is $10-12 in electricity I could save. I would set up multiple batches. It would need to run 24/7 for many days.

Solar panels may offset a good amount of your power costs and you wouldn't have to worry about finding and cleaning fuel.  You need to factor in the time/ costs into that as well and see what each approach would give/ cost you.

I found out that the burger joint I was getting veggie oil from was dumping cleaners/water in with the waste veggie oil. I think the other thing I should of done was to wash the oil before drying. I was one of those idiots that was not doing it the right way. I was really young and just getting started in the DIY world.

It seems like the most practical ways for DIYers to clean oils is by depth filter, centrifuge and/or distillation. A centrifuge would be nice but to pricey right now so I will be filtering. I have been working on a depth filter that uses free media, probably paper or cardboard. Nice thing about cellulose is the fibers can capture some water and works really well for depth filtering.

From what I have read about ASH, motor oils very from .5% to 1% additives. It is minimal % nowadays so as to not clog catalyst and O2 sensors, a balancing act between protection and minimizing ash. Those additives primarily being metallic in nature with the bulk being in the base additives for corrosion control like zinc phosphates and detergents with lots of phosphates and sulfates. New oil has additives in the colloidal / suspended in solution size range "sub micron" and very difficult to filter out. The only additive that can be filtered is some foaming agents in the 5-10 micron range and some viscosity index improvers in the 1 micron range. So when burning oil, those metals form ceramic oxides during combustion creating abrasive ASH. So for every 100 gallons of motor oil burned, there is potentially 1 gallon of ash created. Good news is because of the very small sizer most of it should just pass through the motor due to its light weight/small size (thats my theory).

I have yet to find out reliable information if the additive package stays with the oil vapor during distillation. Did you ever try burning some NEW oil in a spoon and seeing if the metallic elements stay behind? I have read many white papers and have not been able to confirm either way.

Supposedly with used waste oil, some of those additives come out of suspension and bond with contaminants into larger pieces that can easily be filtered out. If they are not filtered and are combusted they form larger pieces of ash(?) that can cause lots of abrasion.  The other metals from engine wear also need to be filtered out. Aluminum wear particles can form into aluminum oxide during combustion, very abrasive stuff.

It sounds like filtering waste oils to sub micron may make it safe enough to burn them. Like you said, water injection is key along with keeping the larger then 1 micron metallics filtered out. I have still not found any long term reports from any lister users that are filtering sub micron and have run for years. I do know that it is very common in poor countries burning waste oil in slow speed diesels.

Of course there is also the corrosive issue to deal and I haven't gone down that road yet.

You got me thinking it may just be easier to keep my freezer dryer electric and supplement the solar with the lister. My 24v system has 1800w in panels and a very large battery bank. The biggest energy use I have is the vacuum pump. It uses about 750 watts and the compressor about 1/10 of that. I already have a very nice welch duo belt driven vacuum pump. I can get an automotive ac compressor for free that would work for the belt drive. My biggest concern would be running the lister unattended for hours on end when no one was home. I'm not sure if that is a good idea or not yet. Of course either way there is mechanical things running 24/7.



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