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Messages - europachris

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136
Lister Based Generators / Re: Well pump starting help
« on: April 10, 2006, 07:07:21 PM »
Neat!  I'll have to look into those. 

Of course, as is so typical today, our house has the 'low cost option' installed - 240V 2-wire.  I'm not hoping it burns up any time soon, but it would be nice to have a pump that is more alternative power friendly.

I'm looking into a larger gen head for my setup, something on the order of 5KVA, and that would get me the 40A/240V surge capacity needed to start the hog.  An ST head would work, of course, but that would require I scrap most of what I have together due to size, weight, and drive requirements.  I've got a call into the local Markon sales office to see about a BL series head larger than what I have now.

Of course, that said, it would have likely been easier to sell the head I have, eliminate the need to buy the expensive Browning industrial drive system, and just get an ST-5.....still might, too....

Chris

137
Lister Based Generators / Re: Well pump starting help
« on: April 10, 2006, 03:37:17 PM »
Just a little more info - digging into some tech bulletins from Franklin, they state the starting watts for my pump at 9600!!! :o  Granted, it's only for 1/2 second, but that's 3 times what my gen head can produce.  So, I might as well throw a dead short across it!  Running watts is only about 1800, so I'm fine there.

I would wonder if a 5kW head could do it (if it could make 10kW at surge), but the 185 engine wouldn't have the horsepower to sustain it past the intial jolt from the flywheel inertia.  If the generator got behind the power curve, it wouldn't be able to recover and keep the pump running.

I'm not thinking the capacitor across the pump leads is going to fix my issue.  I've simply got a current hog of a pump and really need a R195/10kw setup to run it, which is way bigger than I need otherwise.

chris

138
Lister Based Generators / Re: Well pump starting help
« on: April 10, 2006, 01:51:28 PM »
Quote from: Jim Mc on April 10, 2006, 03:27:44 AM
2-wire pumps use split-phase motors.  3-wire pumps are capacitor start. 

--->Thanks for the info, Jim.  I was doing some more research last night and found that an "N" code motor, which is what my pump has, pulls 108 amps per horsepower for starting.  I've got 3/4 horse, so that comes out to about 80 amps.  Now, Franklin says my pump has 40.8 locked rotor amps.  That doesn't equate.  Nevertheless, I've got a 13.3 amp at 240 generator, and even if I can get double that for motor starting, I'm 14 amps short.  A 5kw gen head *might* get me the peak power I need, but maybe not, and I'm not too willing to spend the $$$ to get one and find out it won't work.  I got this 3.2KVA head REAL cheap from Markon, new in box, as it was surplus, some years ago.

Installing a 3-wire pump would be the best bet, but that would require new wiring from the house out to the well, the new pump, etc.  Since the pump is only 4 years old or so, that just doesn't make sense, either.

We're not out in the boonies, so *hopefully* we would be OK without water for a while as long as we have power to run the furnace in the winter and run fridges/freezers to keep food cold.  I plan to store up a 5 gallon jug just for those sorts of emergencies.  We also don't have much in the way of ice storms, tornados, etc. (northern Illinois) but we do get some nasty stuff that could shut power down for a day or two.

I'm just bummed as most of the reason I put in the transfer switch was to get 240 into the house to run the well pump.  Well, at least it turned out to be a real nice installation, and having the other circuits able to power up the lights, TV, fridge, etc. works really well.  I just figured by seeing 6.5A running current on the well pump data plate on the pressure tank that I'd have enough oomph to start it.  Guess not!

Thanks again.

Chris

139
Lister Based Generators / Well pump starting help
« on: April 10, 2006, 01:29:41 AM »
Hi, everyone.  This isn't a strictly Lister question, but I'm having a problem starting my well pump with the generator.

Here's some pics of the setup: http://www.power-co.net/ilchris.htm.

It is a Changfa 185 engine and a Markon 3.2 KVA, 2 pole generator end.  The generator is rated for 13.3A at 240V and 26.6A at 120V.  It's a brushless design unit.  The drive system is industrial "L" section, 6 rib belt and pulleys.

I ran it up on 120V with about 2500 watts of load, part of that being a ShopVac, and it didn't even grunt.

I installed a Gen-Tran transfer switch yesterday, and hooked everything up that I'd like to keep powered during an outage, including the well pump.  The well pump is a Franklin 3/4 HP, 2 wire, 240V pump.  It's down about 140 feet.

So, to test the pump, I run the generator up to about 3650 rpm, which is about 1900 on the engine.  I have all transfer switch loads off, and hit the pump breaker.  The meters both peg for each leg and the generator loads down a bit, and the pump just grunts and won't start.  I'm not sure if the drive belt is slipping or not, but it's properly tightened.

I know it's all wired correctly and I'm getting solid 240V from the generator.  The pump is rated at 6.5A running current, so I have double that from the generator, not taking into account starting currents.  The generator should be good for 26A at 240 for peak motor starting.

I didn't put a meter on the line to see how far the generator loaded down, as I didn't want to fry the pump or blowout the thrust bearing, but it's definitely loading down by judging how the few electronic ballast fluorescents dimmed down while trying to start the pump.

Looking at the Franklin literature, it does appear my generator is marginal for starting a 2-wire, 240V pump.  If it was a 3-wire pump I'd be OK.  Not knowing the difference between 2 and 3 wire, 240V pumps (not 1 vs. 3 phase, either), I don't know if there is anything to add (like the motor starting 'boosters') to help out the starting of the pump.

It's kind of a bummer, as that was the whole reason I built this generator up.  The gen head I already had for several years at another house, but needed a bigger engine to get the most of it.  Now it appears that I need a bigger gen head to go with the 185!

Thanks for any help, gang!

Chris

140
Changfa Engines / Re: Thoughts on Changzhou Diesel Engine Model 1125GM
« on: April 06, 2006, 04:27:11 PM »
Quote from: pigseye on April 06, 2006, 02:28:03 PM
Luisc,
Thanks again for the link.  I checked it out and have to say that the engine is very loud and I don't think I could get it quiet enough for my neighborhood.  Maybe the noise level is exaggerated in the shop where they ran it but it is still loud.


Yeah, they are loud, compared to a Lister.  With 3 times the rpm and a lot more 'stuff' inside the crankcase whirring around, they are going to be noisy.  No worse than an average 3600 rpm gasser generator, and quieter than some I've heard (the Tecumseh powered Colemans are particularly loud and obnoxious).

But, I'm only in the game for backup power and the occasional outdoor project, so noise isn't a big issue for me.  If I tick off the neighbors with noise, at least I have power and they dont! :D

I'd wager that if you put a noise meter next to a Lister at full load, the noise level wouldn't be a lot different.  It's the *character* of the sound that makes the difference.  The Changfa has a very 'sharp' sound and quite a bit of gear racket.  The Lister has a great WHUMP of a power stroke, but it's low frequency and the rest of the noise is a little gear noise from the cam and the clickety clack of the tappets.  It's that rhythmic tone of the Lister that makes it a pleasant noise rather than a racket.

Chris

141
Changfa Engines / Re: Thoughts on Changzhou Diesel Engine Model 1125GM
« on: April 03, 2006, 04:26:20 PM »
Quote from: pigseye on April 03, 2006, 03:53:18 PM

Europachris,
I appreciate your response and insight on the 185.  Could I ask what do you think of the noise level?  Have you done anything special to limit the noise?


Well, it's hard to say, but the noise level is LOUD.  Not so loud you're going to go deaf instantly or annoy neighbors for miles, but loud enough you're going to want to wear hearing protection when working around it while running.  No worse than a regular gas generator, tho.

The vast majority of the noise is from the intake and the exhaust.  The exhaust really barks under full load.  The engine contributes with the rhythmic diesel knock and the whirring of all the balancer and timing gears.

I'm going to experiment with a much larger muffler, either a tractor style muffler with 1.5" OD connections, or an auto muffler of similar size.

Also, I'd like to try a different intake setup, using a Solberg air compressor silencer/filter.  That might help some, and to really quiet the intake, you would need to install a true intake muffler between the filter and the intake port of the engine.  Something with a good size volume to dampen out the "pop" when the intake valve opens.

Since this setup is for backup power and misc. projects outside around the yard where I need power, the noise level isn't a big deal, but it would be fun to see how quiet I can get it.

I've not heard a Listeroid in person, but I'd bet that if you setup a big muffler and something better on the intake, it would be far far quieter due to the lower rpm, absence of much of the gear noise, and greater mass do dampen the diesel knock.  That would be a fun setup.  Just a nice clickety clack.

Chris

142
Changfa Engines / Re: Thoughts on Changzhou Diesel Engine Model 1125GM
« on: April 01, 2006, 04:24:44 PM »
Quote from: dwkdnvr on March 31, 2006, 07:01:27 PM
I'm not an expert by any stretch, but I've been looking at ChangFa's as I have a 185 on the way (apropos to the earlier posts on the thread, the weight/size and logistics of transporting and using a Listeroid don't fit my situation for the next 2-5 years, so the Changfa is a better fit).

How do you like your 185 so far?  I've just completed a setup with mine I orderd from John Alvin.  I was going to get a 6/1, but "missed the boat" and Joel and George ran out of stock, along with everyone else that I considered.  Probably a good thing, as the 185 fits my needs (backup power) a lot better and is portable.

So far, the quality seems quite high, it runs very well, and the vibration level is modest.  Mostly it has a gentle rocking from the power strokes, but no harsh hammering.  I had just the bare engine running only on the wood shipping crate bottom, and it would really jump when I went to full throttle from idle, but at constant speed, it would only gradually walk across the concrete after several minutes.  Quite smooth indeed.  It is *not* quiet by any stretch, and is definitely a more obnoxious noise than a 6/1 setup.  But, again, for backup power, it works. 

Here's some pics of it that John has up on his site: http://power-co.net/ilchris.htm.

The generator head is a Markon 2 pole 3200 watt unit I've had for several years, hooked to an anemic Honda gasser engine.  It was time to go diesel....

Enjoy!

Chris

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