ok guys here is what i need or would like to know.

most folks seem to run a 6/1 with an st5 using a serp belt
so i would like to know if anyone knows or can report what the fuel consumption
of this combination is per hour with "no" electrical load.

just the engine running at rated speed, driving the genhead at 1800rpm

what i want to know is how much fuel does  it take to provide for frictional losses, pumping losses, sound, windage, vibration
etc,, everything but electrical output.

i am working on building a multi variable formula, and this is one variable i figure there should be some hard data on so i don't have to
guess or calculate.

i would also be interested in other engine/gen combinations as well such as changfa's, petters, big twins and other genheads.

it would be interesting to have a good amount of data to determine if there is a relationship with size, rpm etc.
but at this point the 6/1 and st5 coupled with a serpentine belt is of primary interest to me.

thanks guys
bob g

ok guys,

i picked up an old sun electric corporation generator/alternator tester
the one you set the alternator on, attach the belt, flip the switch and load test etc

it is a model GAT 620-2, i would assume built in the mid 60's, it was purchased by a school district
and never used, it is absolutely in new conditions save for a couple of minor scratches on the roll cab.

anyway, it is such a nice piece i don't want to fry something for the lack of knowlege on what all the functions are.
i thought maybe there would be someone on the board that works in a shop somewhere that has one in use
and maybe even has the manual laying around for it that i could buy a photocopy of?

or is there anyone here that knows where one can go to find old manuals for shop equipment?

anyone?

thanks
bob g

well it is a new year and it appears old style listers is back again.
after reading his latest front page i am left to wonder or ask.

is there anyone here that has an engine from willem at oldstyle listers?

would like to know how this has worked out for you.

bob g

with crude oil now around 95 bucks a barrel
one has to wonder what is coming in the near future and maybe more important over the long haul
and how it will effect each of us

for many years the price of diesel fuel was a penny or so less than the lowest grade gasoline, presumably
because there was lower cost in refining diesel out of crude than that which was needed to refine the gasoline

propane has historically been less per gallon than gasoline because of its lower btu content

currently we see diesel anywhere from 25 -50 cents more per gallon, so the question becomes "why'?

obviously the manufactures (refiners) have abandoned the model of cost based pricing and adopted
a priceing structure tied to the btu value of the fuel.

many of us are either planning to use or are using waste motor oil , so...

if the suppliers of energy are going to a btu based priceing model, how long
will it be before they get the idea that waste motor oil with its 50% higher btu rateing per gallon than diesel
decide to figure a way of tieing up that source of energy?

from a btu standpoint a gallon of waste motor oil has a value of about  5 bucks a gallon at current
pricing at the pump for a gallon of diesel  (diesel has ~135k btu vs motor oil at ~200 k btu)

all i know for sure is,,, i wish i had the ability to store about 10k gallons of waste oil now!

at some point that stuff is going to have some significant value

currently most of the waste motor oil around here is not recycled but sold to ocean going ships as bunker oil
so the arguement regarding recycling as motor oil doesn't hold water.

does anyone know what percentage of used motor oil is actually recycled and reused as motor oil?

bob g

ok guys,, please feel free to participate if you like with either
a specific answer or a general one, whichever you feel comfortable with.

been thinking about how these engines are used, beit petteroids, listeroids and changfoids ( changfa's and the myriad of others of the
same type but manufactured by others), it would appear that most are being used as a power source to drive a genhead
and further there seems to be a strong base of DIY'ers that are also harvesting the heat as in cogeneration.

so now the questions, i am going to try and group as well as i can

1.  the 6-10hp singles, driving a genhead such as an st 3, 5 or 7.5

" about what dollar amount have you invested in your machine? taking in to account all the bits and pieces, but not considering your labor
but including any outside machinework, welding or fabrication you paid to have done?" and what do you feel like your completed machine is worth?

2.  the 12 hp and up singles, driving a genhead such as an st 7.5 and up

" about what dollar amount have you invested in your machine? taking in to account all the bits and pieces, but not considering your labor
but including any outside machinework, welding or fabrication you paid to have done?" and what do you feel like your completed machine is worth?

3.  the big twin cylinder 20hp and up, driving a genhead of perhaps an st 10 and up

" about what dollar amount have you invested in your machine? taking in to account all the bits and pieces, but not considering your labor
but including any outside machinework, welding or fabrication you paid to have done?" and what do you feel like your completed machine is worth?


and lastly, are you relatively happy with the results from your efforts, if not about how much more expense would you expect to have
to put out to get the machine up to an acceptable standard for your use?


i have a couple of reasons why i ask these questions, basically it comes down to looking at what other folks
such as osl and the dude in maine get for their machines, some of which seem quite high in price to some folks on the board.

so i guess i am wondering how far out of line these guys are, are they 2X or 3X what folks that build their own have done it for?

also if there was a manufacture that produced a machine such as what you have built, (and after considering all the work you put into
building yours) what would you feel the value added cost would be and still be acceptable to you.

i figure you guys to be the toughest group when it comes to first cost, so if for instance one of you figure you have 2000 bucks in your machine
looking back at all your effort,, would you pay 4000 dollars for the same setup if it was already done?,, 3500? 3000?  2500?  or $2000.13?

would your attitude toward price change if the machine was properly engineered with engineering stamps for the frame assembly, drive assemblies
and the engine was fully  cleaned, properly fitted and made right to start with? yes, no or maybe?

would your attitude change if it was your only source of power?

i expect answers to be all over the board for various reason's, such as

1. financial concern's,, not everyone can afford 3, 4 or more thousands of dollars

2. whether or not the unit is for standby, backup, emergency or if it is used as a primary power source of an offgrid home.

3. the hobby nature of doing it yourself,, which has a varying value depending on the individual

4. how well one is equipped to do such a project in its entireity

5. how confident one is with his abilities to take on such a project.

anyway,, just curious

ok guys,, chime in!

bob g

while i have an st5, 7.5, 12 and 15 kwatt head i do not know if the stator slots are skewed or straight

and i don't at this time relish the thought of disassembly to find out,

also are the slots filled with copper or is there some extra room in there?

does anyone know?  Doug?

bob g

just thought i might pose the question
and if it pisses anyone off, my appologies and oh well

we have all heard Mike Montieth has reported having a tier two compliant engine and an engine that is tier 4 compliant

i want to know,, do you have a tier two compliant engine? have you actually passed tier two in
an epa facility?  or rather....

have you passed the tier two spec's on your test equipment and not got the epa certification yet?

if you haven't submitted to the epa for testing yet, when are you anticipating doing so?

i for one would like to know

the reason i want to know is basically i can make an engine tier two compliant as well, but that is not at all the same thing
as actually having an epa certification for an engine

further it is my firm belief that anyone that is half way good with a wrench can make one of these engines tier two compliant
but that also is not the same as having a tier two certification

example:
just about anyone can make a diesel pass an opacity test without any modifications to the engine or fuel... ask me how
i have done it.  but.... the same engine submitted to the epa for testing would fail miserably.

so whats up with the epa certification?
do you have tier 2 compliancy certification currently from the epa?

bob g

been thinking about the epa reg's and how to get a listeroid into compliance
there has been mention of

1. higher injection pressures
2. egr
3. heated intake air
4. reverse flow cooling, (requires a pump)

but i got to thinking, but first i need to digress abit

a. about 15 years ago, there was a guy here in washington that had some wetland area that he wanted to build on, but found the
wetland to be polluted with heavy metals and other nasty stuff. he bought the land and was stuck with it and could not do anything with it.
the story goes he did a bunch of research and found a group of wetland plants that have the property of being able to absorb differing contaminates
into the plant fiber, he planted this stuff, cut it and hauled off the cuttings etc to the landfill. after about 5 years the swamp was retested and was clear of
the contaminates, and no one knew how he did it.

b. CO cannot be used by plants, or at least that is what was commonly held up untill a few years ago when it was found that about 6 or 7 varieties of plants had mutated and became capable of using CO as well as CO2. this was quite a surprise to the scientific community.

so i wonder:

what if you dig a long trench pit, and put a perforated exhaust pipe from your lister , fill with course rock ,then finer, then sand, cap with loose soil, and
you then have accomplished the following

a. noise reduction, a plus
b. no exhaust smoke, or at least greatly diffused
c. particulate matter is trapped underground, carbon for the most part

now we plant stuff that can use the CO2, all plants like that
we plant the select mutants that like CO, now that is used up

all we need now is a plant or group of plants that can derive the nitrogen from the oxides of nitrogen, seems like there atta be some plant that
is capable of doing this, anyone know? or know who to ask?

or is it possible to build a pond above the plot and let these gasses percualate up through the water, perhaps marine plant life, and photosynthesis can
change these gases to something useful and non destructive.

i wonder?

thoughts? anybody know anyone that might have some light to shed on this?

the problem i see with an open exhaust is once into the atmosphere it is much harder to do anything with, but if controlled perhaps in a stationary application
there is a botanical solution to some part or all of the problem

bob g