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Messages - ajaffa1

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Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Oiling Improvements
« on: December 08, 2017, 11:35:04 AM »
Nice one again, Starfire.

A bit of brazing and that's the top end lube sorted, hopefully

I don't know anything about reincarnation but for years I've been hoping to come back as a book mark in a Janet Reger catalogue (for those in foreign p,laces see )

Cheers Stef
Looking at stuff like this will make you blind, recommend you only risk one eye.

Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« on: December 08, 2017, 10:54:56 AM »
Thanks to all for suggesting Oz listeroids. I was aware of Stephen. he is based in Woolgoolga just north of Coffs Harbour. I believe he is retired now but he emailed me list of parts with prices 6 months ago.

Y'know Jaffa I'm sure I remember welding to key-syeel and having it fail?  Getting old and the memory-retrieval ain't what it used to be.  If you warmed up the stub of the key and used an RSP electrode maybe?  '

I'll be interested to see how that turns out as I have a snapped-off Gib on the crank of an old 3/1 I need to get out one day

Thanks Mike, yes you are right it is asking for trouble to weld different grades of steel to one another, however very often the heat from the welding process is sufficient to shock the gib key out of it`s hole. Please see photos and explanations below.

Well. back to How it`s going. Sadly didn`t do much yesterday, had to go for a psychiatric assessment as part of my rehabilitation. Spent two hours with the guy discussing the merits of old iron. He will probably tell the insurance company that I took a much harder hit to my head than they thought. This morning was wasted on an occupational therapist that is so busy she can only see me for 45 minutes every 2 months. Whinge over, had a great afternoon:
Tackled the issue of the stuck/broken gib key. Welded a length of 12mm stud rod to the remaining key. Cut up an old tin can to protect the crankshaft from weld spatter. Improvised a puller out of some steel tube and steel bar(see photos). Worked a treat but not first time, managed to snap the stud rod first time. Worked like a charm the second time. Key is out! :)
Removed flywheel after a quick clean up of the shaft. Crankshaft looks good, no noticeable wear or corrosion to main bearing journals; less than 1 thou wear in the big end journal.(happy as a pig in sh1t)
Started the horrible job of cleaning out the crankcase, flushed out with Kerosene followed by degreaser and a pressure washer, No go, hardly touched the crap in there. Had to resort to a hammer and chisel to remove the gunk. I believe that this engine was probably used in the processing of sugar cane and over the last 60plus years it has caramelised onto the inside of the crankcase.(not so happy, more hard work)
Oil lines are similarly choked with something resembling toffee, how the main bearings survived without lubrication is a mystery and testament to the robust nature of these old engines. How long would a modern engine last with no oil pressure?
Looking forward to having that crankcase clean tomorrow.

Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« on: December 07, 2017, 08:38:53 AM »
I agree with your approach, make them out of silver steel and harden/temper. I'd only ream the weights and gear if the bore was sloppy, either that or bush it? With mine the pins were very worn, and I replaced the Cam gearwheel because it had broken teeth. The bore through the governor weights in my engine were still pretty good, because there's a lot more material to share the load. So in my case stock pins were good.

For my throttle linkages I made up silver steel pins, bored out the linkages from 3/16 to 5mm on account of the wear. Fiddly but now it's nice and smooth through the full range of travel.
Thanks again Samo, taught I was on the right track. I will probably ream them out to 7mm the next readily available silver steel. Any idea how much clearance would be appropriate, I can buy reamers from China in increments of 0.1mm.
Quick way to repair clevis pins, worn elongated holes etc ,  bronze them up and redrill.
Thanks starfire, very ingenious approach any idea of the likely longevity of this approach. Brass and steel have been used as bearing surfaces for ever.

Y'know Jaffa, IMHO I'd give the Indian parts a go . . .

They are agricultural but the machine is agricultural.  I have an Indian head on my CS and I feel OK about it.

There are many quality issues with the Indian engines but I think there may be a consensus here that their export parts are better?  And, I suspect most of the probs with Indian motors are fixed by good set-up not by dealing with deficiencies in the components so much

The basic architecture of the machines and their low RPMs makes them very tolerant

I looked into boring/sleeving my cylinder and i suspect NZ/Oz situations might be similar with machine shops etc etc?  It was gonna cost around $400-ish to bore, press in a sleeve, re-machine bore to suit piston-plus-clearance etc.  That would have left me with a cast sleeve, necessitating different rings.  In the end I said to myself "It was going OK before so it will probably continue to go OK" and it has to date.  I bought another whole CS for $500 so that gives me options

Also, FWIW I like the look of the new injector/pump components I have bought off Rob and. although the linkage bits look crude, they are cheap-as-chips and i think they can be made to serve well once minus all the green paint and set up OK

Just my $0.02

Also, FWIW I have heard of folks making a bit of a "weir" of plasticine or similar around the perimieter of the broken gib key to allow them to make a "puddle" of INOX or other preferred penetrating oil above the level of the top of the key, and leaving it to work its way through over time and topping-up as required.  Personally I have found gentle heat and then penetrating oil after it has cooled right down to often be successful as I think the heat encourages a minor differential expansion/contraction of the different metals of the cast wheel, the steel Gib key and the rust/oxides in between/around them.  I also reckon, again FWIW, that heat from a MAPP gas torch or similar is pretty safe as it takes a lot to heat up he hub area of one of those wheels

Good luck
Thank you so much Mike, What are the listeroid bores made of? Do they have a high chrome liner so I can use original piston ?(will replace rings) I can always mothball the original cylinder to appease my conscience.
With regards to stuck gib key, I have jacked up that side of the engine and filled the key-way with WD40 I hope it will work it`s way in. Going to pick up welding rods in the morning. Hoping the heat from arc welding a 12 mm stud-rod to the broken key will free things up. I will post photos of the method used in the hope that it mat assist others in the same predicament.
I have checked out the old timer engine website and I have to say that Rob seems to be a very useful mammal to know. I will be contacting him next week with a list of parts.

Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« on: December 06, 2017, 11:05:03 AM »
Hi Guys, didn`t get as much done today as I had hoped.
hi Bob, yes I agree the profile looks wrong, no surprise as it's an area that gets little oil, well compared to the rest of the crankcase. in my 12/2 the governor pins and the cam follower wheels on the oil pump lifter were also very worn, I wouldn't be surprised if yours are similar....

Thanks Samo. the governor pins on mine are also worn(see photo), not as bad as yours. I haven`t measured them but think they have an original od of 1/4 inch. has anyone tried reaming the governors weights and camgear to take a slightly bigger pin. maybe with an increase in the lubrication hole? Any one know what these are made of, I was considering ordering some silver steel, cutting to length, drilling holes for split pins before hardening and tempering.
Cam follower bearing on mine looks ok but I will check it anyway.
The fuel pump lobe has a completely different profile from the valve lobes... yours looks fairly normal from what I can see in your photo.

Thanks dieselgman, I have had a good look and they are very different. inlet and exhaust lobes look ok. anyone know what the lift should be? Are these lobes hardened steel that can be reground or are they disposable case hardened steel?

Jobs done today:
Failed miserably to tackle the  stuck/broken gib key.No suitable welding rods.
managed to decontaminate and strip paint off head, cylinder block and it`s water jacket covers. Got a coat of primmer on them just to keep the heavy nigh time condensation here from causing corrosion.(Yes I know I shouldn`t be painting mating surfaces but I would rather scrape of paint than rust). See photos attached.

Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Lister 12/2 Rebuild Update
« on: December 06, 2017, 09:42:06 AM »
Great job Samo, if she runs as good as she looks you should be a very happy and proud man. Love the detailing.

Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Lister 12/2 flywheel question
« on: December 06, 2017, 09:37:28 AM »
Hi Samo. very interesting modification, any idea what this was originally used to drive? could be something off balance, hence the mod. If you were to remove the two grub screws you could rotate it back to it`s original orientation then drill and tap it before re-fitting grub screws. Wouldn`t recommend running it like it is as it will probably walk itself out of the shed. but if you are very brave/stupid I would love to see what this does for flicker on a lighting setup.

Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« on: December 05, 2017, 11:07:17 AM »
That picture at the start of the thread is a beauty !
Very nice unit.

(lister envy) :-\

Hope you are talking about the ST2 not the CS. looked like this when I got it(see photo). The reason it now looks ok is that dieselgman helped me find the parts. Don`t want to go into the cost but it probably explains why he has more than one CS to rebuild this winter. Only joking, prices were very reasonable.
That liner will probably continue to serve if you want it to?  As long as there's nothing "lippy" for rings to catch on?  You gotta think "600 RPM" not "automotive" IMHO

You could certainly give it a scuff-up and put it back together and try?  All that's lost is a couple hours work

Injector etc?  Maybe throw the whole injector/linkage shit in a bucket of diesel and while it's soaking have a look on Old Timer Engines to see how cheap all that stuff is and just buy a new pump, lines, linkage & injector -then when you go to start it you will know all that stuff is good and when you get a solid, distinctive "CRINK" from the injector you'll know you are good

Just my $0.02

Thanks Mike, sadly it has a very profound lip. A re-bore to 20 thou might just about eliminate it. Still thinking about having it sleeved. Might be cheaper to import a new cylinder but have my doubts about the Indian Listeroid parts.
Think I`ll take your advice on fuel injection components: dump in a bath of diesel and leave for a long time. Its what I did with the ST2 and it worked a treat. I still had to replace the injector nozzles but everything else cleaned up real nice.
I concur on the fuel injection stuff... both pumps and injectors readily available brand new MICO Bosch and their quality is good. The OEM pump does have a drilled shaft for the excess fuel (overload) pawl... maybe worth recovering an old pump for that feature.

Thanks dieselgman, where I live never drops below freezing so no problems with start up all year round.

Nice rehabilitation project!
These engines all end up looking more or less the same after years of neglect - but I never grow tired watching them come back to life. Keep posting those updates.

Oh my word dieselgman... 10 engines... I feel like I need a break after doing just one   :o  ;D

Thanks for the encouragement dieselsmoker. Read all of your posts on your rebuild. A lot of skills and innovations,

So how did the sick old git go today?
I managed to strip everything except the crankshaft and one flywheel. Managed to snap the head off the gib key, still no movement in the key. The crankshaft on this side has a lot of pitting from corrosion. Suspect that water has got into keyway and seized everything solid. Going to weld a length of 1/2 inch threaded bar to the remaining gib key and try to pull it off with a piece of tube 3 inch and 1/2 inch steel plate with a hole in it. Will post photos tomorrow. Could be some swearing if it don`t work. Anyone know how much heat I can safely put into the shaft and flywheel without damaging stuff?
I have a question regarding the profiles on the camshaft. The inlet/exhaust cam lobes are clean and nicely rounded, the cam lobe that drives the oil pump and injector pump has a different profile, looks worn to me(see photo) advice please.

Thanks guys

Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« on: December 04, 2017, 11:24:39 AM »
Well guys, looks like we all need a bit of rehab except for dieselgman who appears to need help, if he doesn't need therapy now he soon will.
I had a real fun day:
Removed cylinder, badly worn/corroded.
Removed one gib key and fly wheel, came out easy. Wish I could say the same for the other one, broke my gib key puller. Made a tapered drift and warmed everything up, still no joy. More penetrating oil and will leave for a few days before trying again.
Removed piston and conrod. Main bearing shells badly worn down to the copper, crankshaft looks ok but will measure the journal to be sure. Anyone know if undersized bearings are available if it needs a regrind?
Managed to free up the fuel injector pump rack enough to disassemble the governor linkages. Any advice on decontaminating the injector pump?
Removed cam followers/tappet assembly, exhaust side has a lot of play, anyone know what the tolerances should be?
Just a couple of pics to prove the knackered old git is still having a go, No surrender.

Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« on: December 03, 2017, 10:35:12 AM »
Thanks Ron and Stef, just finished for the day. "No surrender" was the moto for the Irish Republican Army, while I don`t endorse their policies or methods you have to love their determination and enthusiasm and I am trying to embrace both.
Doctors tell me I should take it easy as I broke my neck twice, bust my sternum and ribs and followed it all up with a heart attack. What a load of BS, I can sit around waiting for a word with God or I can get on and try to be productive.
Today was the best I have had in twelve months. I am excited by what I am trying to do and have already learned a lot. Love the idea about a cooler unit from a refrigerated container. if I did that the wife might think I was doing something useful.
So how did I get on today?
1. I hit everything with penetrating oil.
2. Removed water pipes, exhaust manifold &etc.
3. Removed rocker cover & rocker arm assembly.
4. Removed Fuel injector and pipes.
5. Removed fuel filter and pipes to injector pump.
6. Removed COV.
7. Removed cylinder head.
8. Remove water jacket access covers from cylinder.
9. Drained sump
Observations so far:
Cylinder head has been home to a family of mice, long gone, only to be replaced by a live red back spider (nasty toxic beasty) which is now an ex arachnid (no machinery was damaged during this extermination)
Some Muppet with a large hammer and a small brain decided the best way to free seized valves (due to lack of maintenance) is to beat the sh1t out of them. Picture of deformed rocker attached.
Cylinder bore badly worn, Listard chrome finish damaged and severe corrosion due to water contamination.
Sump filled with some primordial slime that appears to be a mixture of crude oil and sewage.

Information required as to best re-bore, fit high chrome/steel liner with soft piston rings or rebore and use oversize piston with high chrome rings?
I need a supply for Whitworth studs and nuts in Australia any info welcome.

Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« on: December 03, 2017, 03:22:36 AM »
Thanks starfire and dieselgman for the encouragement, doubt I would be undertaking this without this forum.
I am going to struggle with just one such engine, 10 is probably masochistic, good luck. do you expect to get ten running or cannibalise some to produce maybe 7 good ones?
A couple of early observations on my engine: 1. having removed gib key cover(1 missing) I note that the gib keys are numbered to match the corresponding fly wheel. I have to assume some level of individual fitting was employed, probably involving a file and some engineers blue. 2.Wear on the crankshaft from the starting handle is normally on the number one side allowing a person to use their right hand for cranking before using the left to disengage the decompression lever. On mine the wear is on the number two side suggesting that the previous owner was left handed. 3. No discernible play or end float in the crankshaft. Crankshaft is not seized but I will refrain from attempting to turn her over until I have investigated the condition of the cam shaft and idler.
Just a thought, has anyone tried driving an air conditioner with one of these? Temperatures here are set to soar to 50 degrees this summer.
They say that laughter is the best medicine, my wife is feeling great laughing at her stupid husband. I am hoping to have the last laugh when the CS fires up.

Original Lister Cs Engines / Lister CS 6/1 as form of rehab
« on: December 03, 2017, 01:24:47 AM »
G`Day all from down under. (Northern NSW, Australia)
I have been a member for quite some time but have never posted before. A few years back I purchased a Lister ST2 SOM in very neglected condition. With a lot of help and parts from Gary at Diesel Electric she now provides back up for our home.
Last year I had a very serious car accident and have been undergoing rehabilitation ever since. In a slightly mad attempt to speed up this process I bought a Lister CS 6/1 yesterday. Serial number 1510616 (1956) crankcase casting number 25 A 56 so January 1956 I believe. Four years older than me.
It is my plan to restore this to as new condition and add a three phase generator head to power my workshop machines.
The CS is missing a fuel tank, cooling system, inlet manifold and filter, exhaust silencer and push rod. I will have to strip every part of this and examine them to compile a list of required spares. For now all I plan to do is cover everything in penetrating oil and let it soak in for a while.
I will post some pictures as I go and all advice will be very much appreciated

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