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Messages - broncodriver99

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376
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« on: February 09, 2017, 01:53:04 AM »
Oops, almost forgot. I also measured ring gap today. @ top .013" @ 1/4 down .009" @ middle .010" @ 3/4 down .011" @ bottom .012". There is a little taper and a little wear at the ridge as was suggested but all in all pretty good. I need to go find the spec for where they should be, that seems a little tight.

377
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« on: February 09, 2017, 12:53:04 AM »
It's been a couple of weeks since my last update. Between work, weather, and a cold workshop I have only had a few afternoons here and there to get some time in on the Lister. Yesterday and today were both 72 degrees in February in Virginia.  :o Normally its in the 30's overcast and a chance of snow. Spent both afternoons enjoying the weather and working on the Lister.  ;D

Been spending a lot of time cleaning up parts and measuring everything for wear. Let's just say EVERYTHING has wear. I have a lot of small parts that need replacement or repair.

I have been calling around looking for answers and options on what to do, if anything, with the cylinder. It seems that most of the guys still in the business of chroming cylinders do small motorsports type cylinders and most have or are shifting to Nikasil/NiCom coatings. I spoke to USChrome at length. Very knowledgeable guy and nice enough to spend a few minutes explaining the difference between the old hard chrome and the newer products. He explained what would need to be done with the cylinder and their process of removing the old chrome and re-coating with Nikasil. He gave me a price and asked for some pictures and dimensions to better get an idea of what they could do with it. They have a limitation with the length of the bore as their diamond hones don't have a very long stroke. After getting a couple of questions answered by 38ac and a better understanding of the wear specs I think that the cylinder is good as it is. I may look into options for de-glazing it but I have read mixed opinions on doing anything to the chrome. It is good to know that there is another option out there similar to the original coating if the cylinder is damaged or worn beyond limits at some point.

I ordered a few parts from Gary over at DES to get me started and to take some measurements with. I Emailed him Friday afternoon and the parts showed up Monday. Now that is quick!

Other than that I spent most of my time cleaning up, degreasing, and stripping the crankcase. It was a job. The entire inside was coated in the same muck that is seen in the tear down pictures at the beginning of the thread. Kerosene cut most of the heavy stuff off and thinned the rest of it enough that a heavy duty degreaser or brake clean handled it with multiple scrub brushes and scrapers of course. After the last rinse down there was little or no green paint left and the primer was pretty thin so I decided to go ahead and strip the outside down to bare cast. I have some paint samples on the way that hopefully will be pretty close to the original green. The plan is an epoxy primer/sealer followed by a couple of coats of single stage urethane with a little clear mixed into the final coat for durability. I am contemplating picking up some glyptol and putting another coat on the inside. Here are a few pics of the crankcase. All cleaned up and ready for a coat of paint. I think it cleaned up pretty well. And, a couple of parts that I picked up from DES and a few that I had gotten elsewhere earlier.








378
Everything else / Re: Witte Engine Skid Base
« on: January 25, 2017, 03:36:52 AM »
We average around 50 KW a day.

I was going to say that doesn't seem unreasonable as I use that or better in winter and my house is pretty efficient. I'm in VA.

Then I looked at this: http://www.eia.gov/electricity/sales_revenue_price/pdf/table5_a.pdf

Wow, you are using some juice. You would think they would at least send you a thank you card with your bill. Is the grid that taxed in Paradise?

379
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« on: January 25, 2017, 12:23:27 AM »
I got a little more done today.

I have come to the conclusion that it is definitely a crack in the head, not a gouge.

There does appear to be enough material left in the valve seats to re-cut them(lightly). They are cut pretty low though, either from the first go round or after multiple valve jobs. I measured the seats in case I have to track down replacements and they are two different sizes!!!! Not just that but one appears to be standard and one metric!!!! I had a flashback to working on an old AMC/Jeep, thankfully no Torx bolts on a Lister though.  :laugh:

So, the exhaust seat is 1.875" OD 1.23" ID. The exhaust seat is a little rough on the ID so I am guessing it was originally 1-7/32". The intake seat is 1.791" (45.5mm) OD 1.259" (32mm) ID. I guess they just used what they had?  ???

After that I stripped the crankcase for the most part, drained the oil, and unbolted it from the frame. It needs a good pressure washing. I then decided to clean up and inspect the oil pump. I am happy to say I found a part that isn't completely worn out and in need of replacement.  ;D I pulled it apart and cleaned everything up. There is no scoring in the bore or on the plunger and only about .001" wear on the plunger. The area of the plunger that contacts the seal has about .005" wear. The original felt seal is intact and appears to be in good shape. Once all back together it pumps air and will not compress when I block the outlet port. Good enough for me. One part down, only the rest of it to go.

Till next time.

380
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« on: January 24, 2017, 03:25:39 PM »
Hi EdDee,

I was just thinking about those stitch fasteners last night. I am on the lookout for another head but I think I will take 38ac's advice and at least have this one milled to see how bad it is. I hope to put in a few hours on the Lister this afternoon. I need to finish cleaning up the valve seats to make sure the pitting can be cut out with a valve job and give the crack another look. I may have to figure out what these seats are so they can be replaced. If they have to come out it will definitely be easier to inspect and make a decision.

Thanks for the info.

381
Things I want to Buy / Lister CS Cylinder Head
« on: January 23, 2017, 03:16:51 PM »
I am looking for a good serviceable Lister CS cylinder head. Bare casting or complete either one. Shoot me a PM if you have something.

382
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« on: January 23, 2017, 03:11:14 PM »
Thank you Butch. The more I think about it the more I think it is beyond primary service. I may do exactly as you suggest and toss it on the shelf as a backup if it is salvageable. I am really concerned with the crack and the likelihood that if it hasn't already traveled into the water jacket, at some point down the road it will. I would be more comfortable starting with a head that doesn't have any issues. Those valve seats are really bugging me anyway. Thank you for the valve stem spec. Decisions. Decisions.  :-\

Russell

383
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« on: January 23, 2017, 01:54:00 AM »
I spent a couple of hours cleaning up today.

I scraped a bunch of mineral out of the water passages in the head. There is still a lot in there but it is going to need a soak to get to the rest of it. I also pulled the water jacket doors on the cylinder and scraped a ton of sediment/rust/mineral out. It will need a good soak as well.

The valves and seats have right much pitting and will need replaced. The seats have been replaced at some time. I measured the valve recess and it is .095-.097 which is pretty much the max spec, no matter though as they will be new when I am done.

I measure about .010" play in the valve guides. Does anyone have a spec for this? I probably need to replace those as well. This parts list is getting pretty long.  :'(

Here are a couple of pics. There appears to be a crack between the valve seats. It is hard to tell of it is a crack or a gouge, I can catch a nail on it in both directions. I inspected the areas in the valve chambers to see if there was evidence that it carried through the casting but couldn't see any evidence of it. It will be easier to tell when the seats are removed. There is a water passage directly above that area that I may try to get some water down in to see if it is a crack and will weep. I also put a straight edge on the head and there is a small crown right in the middle, the area between the valve seats and the pre chamber. Everything else is good and flat. . The valve seats look to be a little bigger than necessary. I am not crazy about how close the edge of the intake seat is to the head gasket. It appears to intrude into the fire ring area a little.

That's about it for today.





384
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« on: January 23, 2017, 01:23:51 AM »
There are loads of snails in the UK, not only that, the Romans brought their favourite edible breeds as well as dormice, from the States, we got Kentucky Fried and Micky D's, more my type of snack, and the wrappers don't foul the fuel filters,

I had hazel nut shells under the rocker cover of mine, doubtless some one from Oz will be keen to let us know about the Red Backs cin their alternator..........

Cheers
Stef

I will definitely take KFC and McD over snails and mice any day.

385
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« on: January 22, 2017, 08:33:21 AM »
I did a little more work on the Lister. I decided to let the crank and cylinder be for now while I am waiting on some info and parts availability. I moved on to the cylinder head. I pulled the valves and springs and gave it all a once over. The valves have the slightest amount of play in the guides. I measure about a thou of wear from the non contact areas of the valves to the areas that are in the guides. The seats look good but may be slightly recessed. I will measure that tomorrow. The exhaust valve has some pitting so I will be adding a set of valves to my parts list. I pulled the COV and then realized I should have done that before I pulled the whole thing down as the inner chamber is stuck in the head. I left it soaking in some penetrating oil.

I also cleaned up the cam. I polished the journals and the eccentrics with some 1200 grit and mic'd everything. The shaft is .875" nominal with what seems to be a theme of .002" clearance. The non contact areas measure .873". Both bushing journals measure .8715". It looks like there is 1-2 thousands wear which seems reasonable to me. I am not sure there is much to be gained by replacing the cam shaft. I plan on replacing both cam bushings which should snug things up a bit. I hope to be back at it tomorrow.

BTW, are there a lot of snails in England? I pulled about a half dozen snail shells out of the water passages of the head. Curious.

386
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« on: January 22, 2017, 07:38:25 AM »

You got that chit right, ;D 
I have a 0-1" Starrett electronic micrometer that direct reads in 1/100,000" I wont even use it as it drives a person nuts.

That would drive me crazy. I tend to fret over 10ths of a thou. I tend to be the guy who always has a standard handy, just because the weather changed. I can't imagine a digital readout that changed every time i looked at it. It does boggle the mind the accuracy that modern tools can offer. NASA would be proud.

387
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« on: January 20, 2017, 02:35:36 PM »
.00075" is some mighty fine measur'en ;)
Two routes for you to take, worry less about hand sanding out every imperfection or have the crank ground.  Remember that you are not transferring 200 HP through a .750" wide bearing surface such as in a hi performance V-8.  Do not think that I advocate sloppy build practice as I do not but there are things that are import and need to be so-so and things that do not need to be so-so. The crankshaft journals MUST be round in cross section and flat in profile and that takes precedence over a nice and shiny  surface in a slow speed, low pressure application if your not going to grind the crank in a machine.
Bottom line is if the pitting is less than 25% of the surface area it doesn't need to be fretted and you will likely do more damage to the important things than good in trying to hand sand them all out. Think of the pits as nice little oil holding pockets  ;)

Thank You 38ac,

I am guessing at the .00075. ;D I measure between .0007" and .0008". It could be .00074. :D

That answers a lot of my question. I am used to working with highly loaded bearings where surface imperfection must be nil to none. I figured there is some leeway in the bushings but don't want to risk galling. I plan to find a shop capable of putting this on a machine for the rod journal at a minimum. Because of the oiling arrangement I am definitely more concerned about the crank pin than the mains.

Thanks Again.

BD99

388
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« on: January 20, 2017, 02:05:59 PM »
Hi '99

For what my 6 eggs are worth........

I'd hone the bore as least as possible, and go with an aluminium piston, sure you'h have to re balance the fly wheels but it would leave you the option to run up to 8/1 spec if you wanted a few more HP later.

Grind the crankpin and fit oversized  big end shells.

Leave the mains and fit taper roller bearings. This also give you the modern 'lip' oil seals.

I fitted TRB's as the mains were shocking, even with new bushes, however they were made for the aforementioned In'jun crans with no filet / radius on the mains and I ended up modd'ing them with the angle grinder and a flap wheel. honest! Plenty of Loctite 610 on the final fit and they sound great. However I've yet to do any long term work with the motor.

Whilst you've the motor in bits don't for get to check the cam shaft 'lash', I did and It'll mean another tear down later......

I guess mostly it depends on the depth of your pockets, available facilities and desire for perfection!

Cheers Stef

Hi Stef,

I was reading your thread and the TRB's are an option I have contemplated. I hadn't considered the aluminum piston but will give it some thought. I would really like to keep this as original as possible but it is good to know there are other options if that isn't possible. I do have some lash in the cam and intend to replace the collar and bushing to correct it. I think that was the source of the issues that caused the fuel tappet wear. The more I dig into this Lister the more I think someone ran it until it was slam worn out, had the cylinder bored and replaced the piston, then ran it until it was slam worn out again. All of the bearing part numbers are of the original 5-1/ designation which was two L/P numbering systems ago. I am thinking these may all be the original bearings and all that was rebuilt was the cylinder.

As far as my desire for perfection, well, I tend to be a perfectionist. It was drilled into my head at a young age to do things once and get them right the first time. I strive for "as good as I can make it" and sometimes go overboard but I try not to spend silly money on something for the sake of perfection.

Thank you for the input.
BD99


389
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« on: January 19, 2017, 06:59:58 PM »
Thank you dieselgman. Just sent you an email about some parts.

390
Original Lister Cs Engines / Re: Introduction/ New project/ Questions
« on: January 19, 2017, 04:55:36 PM »
So yesterday was a long day. I spent the whole afternoon polishing the crank. My arms and shoulders are still sore. All of the scoring and almost all of the pitting polished out but the areas where galvanic corrosion had set in are just too deep for me to polish out by hand. I mic'd everything when I was done and I had taken .00075" of material off. The corrosion looks to be about another .001" deep. That is good and bad. It looks like it can be polished out and still be within the wear limits but I was hoping not to have to take that much material off.

I had a chance to finish cleaning up the piston and get a mic on it. I found all of the wear I had been expecting when I tore it apart. It was all in the piston. This is a .010" oversize piston and I measured 4.504"/4.503" on the skirt and 4.494"/4.4935" above the top ring. So, that's .006" wear at the bottom and .0165 wear at the top. :o The wear limit is .005" so it is well out of spec. Between the wiped out rod bearing and the loose piston I bet this engine was making some serious noise when it was shut down for the last time. I went through a few of the other parts and found a few more pieces that have enough wear in them to be of concern. The cam being the worst. It is pretty loose in the bushings and is worn enough that it may be time to replace the shaft.

I also rechecked the cylinder at 38ac's suggestion. That is where I did find some good news. I can still see crosshatch all the way up to the ridge. I checked about 20 different places and concentrated on the first inch directly below the ridge and I couldn't find anywhere that varied outside of 4.512".

I have been contemplating my options and these are what I have come up with:

Option #1:
- Have the crank polished until the corrosion is gone and run it if it is still within the wear limits.
- Replace piston and rings with a new .010" set(if I can find one) and deglaze the cylinder.

Option #2:
- Have mains polished and run them if they are within wear limits.
- Have crank pin turned .010"
- Have cylinder honed to a uniform 4.512"
- Replace piston and rings with a new .010" set(if I can find one)

Option #3:
- Have mains welded and ground to "as new" spec.
- Have crank pin turned .010"
- Hone cylinder to a uniform 4.512"
- Replace piston and rings with a new .010" set(if I can find one)

Option #4
- Have mains welded and ground to "as new" spec.
- Have crank pin turned .010"
- Have cylinder sleeved back to std.
- Replace piston and rings with a new std. set.

Option #5
- Replace crankshaft with an aftermarket one.
- Replace cylinder with and aftermarket one.
- Replace piston and rings with a new std. set.

I am thinking somewhere between option #1 and #3. I aim to do this right but it is a question of how far do I need to go for it to be "right". I plan for this engine to be a power source while I build my next place and then serve as a back-up generator. I figure option #1 would buy this engine several thousand hours of service which is likely more hours than I would ever put on it. But, option #2 seems like it is probably the minimum to do it "right". Ultimately option #3 would get this engine as close to "as new" spec as possible while saving the chrome bore and the original English parts which I would prefer.

I won't have any time to work on it for a few days and need to see about tracking down some parts.

So, what do you guys think? Opinions would be appreciated. Which direction would you go?

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