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Messages - SCOTT

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31
General Discussion / Re: One person's ideas on taxes
« on: February 15, 2008, 12:52:56 AM »
Biobill
The net meteing is going pretty good so far.  By tomorrow morning I will have put about 115 hours on the engine this week running on heated vegi oil.  If all goes well  I will pull the head at 500 hrs and have a look.  I will post more details in the comming weeks in another thread about extended run times.

Scott

32
General Discussion / Re: One person's ideas on taxes
« on: February 15, 2008, 12:21:47 AM »


.....There are many many things wrong with that lame argument that any student in a first year philosophy course could tear apart easily....

This is where we differ, I bellieve that tax policy is the realm of economists, not philosophers.



Scott

33
General Discussion / Re: One person's ideas on taxes
« on: February 14, 2008, 09:04:42 PM »
here is a different way to look at an age old argument:

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what th ey decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until on e day, the owner threw them a curve. 'Since you are all such good customers, he said, 'I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20. Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers?How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?' They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

'I only got a dollar out of the $20,'declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,' but he got $10!'

'Yeah, that's right,' exclaimed the fifth man. 'I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!'

'That's true!!' shouted the seventh man. 'Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!'

'Wait a minute,' yelled the first four men in unison. 'We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!'

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough mon ey between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where t he atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics, University of Georgia

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

Scott


34
Lister Based Generators / Re: Preparing for extended run times
« on: February 13, 2008, 03:33:23 PM »
some early data

Last night I ran my 6/1 on filtered wvo from about 5:00pm untill 8:00am this morning at 405 rpm.  I started recording fuel consumption at 11:00 pm.  By 8:00 am the next morning I had used 1.75 gallons of wvo and the production over that 9 hour period was 13.5kwh. 

So the breakdown is as follows:
                                                                                                           Gallon
Gal used   Time in hrs     gal/hr       prod in kwh   consumpt per kwh      Yield/kwh
  1.75          9.00          .19              13.5                              .13                      7.70

This is better than I expected, I will repeat over a longer period and see if the numbers are the same. I also intend on experimenting with different rpm settings.  I believe these numbers are better than running the engine at 650 rpm when adjusted for higher kwh output

Scott

35
Lister Based Generators / Re: Preparing for extended run times
« on: February 13, 2008, 03:41:21 AM »
Hello all I would like to resurrect this thread, the main goal is to discuss the best way to run a lister type engine for extended periods unattended. 

My situation is as follows:
I have a 6/1 in a detached garage that has been treated to reduce sound.  I have a layer of 5/8 drywall on top of that is homosote and on top of that is another layer of 5/8 drywall.  The second layer of 5/8 drywall was not my choice, it wad done to meet fire codes.  The mechanical noise is almost nothing when over 10ft away from the building.  The exhaust is directed into a buried 30gallon drum by a 2” black pipe.  The outlet of the buried drum goes into corrugated black plastic pipe and is a downhill run for at least 50 ft.  At this point the noise issue has been taken care of.

Fuel is wvo run through a makeshift bag filter then stored in a 16 gallon plastic tank.  The oil is then gravity fed through a 10 micron wound string filter and onto a 5 micron string filter, each costing about $3.00 from Mcmaster.

I have been experimenting with different operating rpm, I ran the engine at 380rpm and was able to produce 1500w at my inverter (this is after generator, line and interface losses) for 51 hours without stopping. The only problem I was able to detect was that the belt attaching the engine to the gen started to wear and there was a fine black dust on the side of the generator.  I concluded this was due to some slipping on the pulley, which is only 5” in diameter.  I do have an idler pulley to create more belt to pulley contact, but even with this it seems to be slipping, and it is already tighter than I would like.

I am considering having another pulley made, this time 6” which will allow me to run the gen at about 475-480 rpm

I am running the engine at a lower speed, primarily because it makes less noise, which will allow me to run it 24/7.  If I do run it 24/7 the gen room is always warm and I don’t need additional diesel or hands on time for the start up/ shut down fuel switch over.  Running the engine 24/7 will make oil changes and other maintenance chores more frequent, but at the lower rpm I think I should have an adjustment factor.  A bypass oil filter is an obvious upgrade I will be adding, to help extend oil change intervals.

My most pressing concern is how to protect the engine from self destructing if there is a problem.  I am looking into some electromagnets that can be used to hold open fuel, compression, and air intake.  If power is lost to the string of electromagnets all three will turn off, releasing whatever they held open(on)  I believe I need high engine temp. oil level and something that will react to over speed.  High temp and oil should be straight forward, but over speed may require some creativity.  Any suggestions?

Also please point out any problems with running the engine at a lower speed.

I plan to gather data on fuel consumption vs load and rpm to determine the optimal running rpm based on fuel consumption. 

Any other suggestions on anything I left out is appreciated

any insight form others running long hours would be great
Scott

36
General Discussion / Re: '08 EPA Who's Liable Now?
« on: January 25, 2008, 03:12:16 AM »
re parts

I "suggested" to everone that bought an engine from me a list of spares, usual wear items, liner rings gaskets etc. most will sit in the original wrapping unused till the owners estate is settled!   Some bought everything on the list some bought none.  If you have to buy parts from a dealer that STOCKS parts you should expect to pay alot more than 2-3x his cost.

If you think you will need still parts for your hobby engine you proabably will not.  But you can either get into a group buy or pay up to a dealer.  If you are worried the dealers won't be around...buy now while they are.

This market is so small that i dont think it even qualifies as a niche market.

Scott

37
General Discussion / Re: '08 EPA Who's Liable Now?
« on: January 25, 2008, 01:30:24 AM »
dmp
fact is that I was in contact with the EPA prior to the engine orders I placed.  Each time I called and verified that because they were stationary they were excluded from various epa regs.  The last time I called they said in jan of '07 I could not use the exemption any more.

Yes there are others who import engines, and as far as I am concerned they are taking a huge risk for little gain that I simply am not willing to take.  Listeroids are an interesting distraction from real life for me and I suspect many others here.  There is no way in Hell that I am going to risk everything I built up over the lase 15 years so I could import engines from India and make a few dollars. 

I have said it to anyone who has contacted me looking for an engine, that you can proably import one yourself and never have a problem.  The dealers will probably not have a problem eithther.  but if they ever do get caught they wont be going to alkatraz....more likely bankruptcy court.

dmp if you feel so strongly i will gladly give you Atuls contact info, order up a load and sell them you can get a good deal when ordering a container at a time.

For me It is a no brainer decision:
risk outweighs reward 3000 to 1*



Scott

  *(refers to the $32000 penalty)


38
Waste Motor Oil / Re: Blended Waste Oil
« on: January 25, 2008, 12:00:15 AM »
fuel is sold by liquid volume, one calibrated gallon is exactly equal to all other calibrated gallons.  trying to arb fuel based on thermal expansion seems a fools game.  What would the station owner do, wait for a cold day to take delivery and then heat it up prior to pumping?  What happens in the summer, does he only take delivery at night when it is cooler, or better yet first thing in the morning so the fuel in the tanker is cold from the night before?  

the expansion rate has to be pretty low or there would be systems in place to calibrate for expansion at every step in the distribution system.

But all the above is moot because the unit you pay for is the unit you get, gallons not btu's.

which weighs more, a pound of feathers or a pound of lead?

back to waste oil anyone?  

it is appealing because it sounds like it may be eaiser to clean/filter up then veg oil...no crunchies in wmo, and the btu content is higher.  on the downside there is the engine life issue.  I am interested in results using heated (200 f+) vmo.  If blending is done only to reduce viscosity then heating may eliminate the need to blend.  as for final filter level, I would think anything 5 or better would be fine.  

In the comming weeks/ months I hope to do some experimenting with some lightly used (100 hrs from a boat) rotella t 15/40.  I also have the oil analysis reports so I will be able to tell the group exactly what is in the oil.  If time permits I would be willing to take measurenments of the top end pre and post wmo.  Any suggestions on a methodical testing procedure?

Scott

39
Generators / Re: sell power back to utility
« on: January 23, 2008, 03:46:31 PM »
Well guys I finally did it.  Today my utility (Connecticut light and power) came to my house to do a witness test.  What that means is they inspected my net metering setup,  And it passed the inspection.  I am now able to sell power back to the grid legally and 100% by the book. 

It has been a long journey, having to get approval from:
 my city, which required departmental approval from
the health department (noise regulations)
environmental board
building department (fire codes and electrical codes.
And the utility, which had to approve of the design of the system as well as the fuel used.

Getting these approvals was not exactly easy.  You have to remember that the city and utility has likely never heard of using a diesel engine designed in the 1920’s running on veg oil to produce electricity, much less trying to sell that back to the grid.  With that said it took a lot of time for me to educate the various departments and agencies on why this would 1.)work and 2.) comply with the various regulations and rules.

In the end the plan has changed a bit, but the spirit of the original idea still holds true.  Convert free for the taking veg oil into useable electricity and heat. 

In the weeks and months ahead I will try to do a better job of detailing the process.  I should be able to include actual output data vs fuel consumption, etc.

The take away for now is that it can be done by the book and in compliance with all the regulations.

Scott

40
Other Slow Speed Diesels / Changfa type as used in China
« on: January 22, 2008, 01:09:38 AM »
For the Changfa fans, follow the link to a few pictures and a video clip I took while in China last month.  The last one is of a "truck" with a Changfa, you can make out the flywheel under the seat of the driver.


http://good-times.webshots.com/album/562218421kbcZhM



Scott

41
Generators / Re: sell power back to utility
« on: January 17, 2008, 03:00:12 PM »
Bob
Interesting analysis, taking into account depreciation and all.  When you do that you are getting into the area of tax accounting.  This is fine, but if you are going to bring in the IRS, you might as well keep track of ALL your  costs. i.e. milage at 48.5 cents (per 2007 IRS milage allowance).  You can also deduct any plant and equipment from your taxes, i.e. your Lister engine, your gen head, the welder you bought to build the frame, the materials for the frame, and the list goes on.  If you do everything by the book and you have a net positive balance with the utility at the end of the yeaer you should claim this as income.  It will be taxed as regular income at your rate  I am no tax expert, but it may be a good idea to talk with an accountant about this, if there is a tax advantaged way to use net metering, then by all means do it.

Bob your analysis of the rates is not exactly complete.  I will use my rates, as I know what they are, it is better to use a real life example.
My all inclusive rate less fees is 19.2 cents per kwh.  If I produce up to my domestic usage over the year my production is worth 19.2 cents per kwh.  If I produce over my domestic usage I am paid the “avoided rate” which is basically the commodity charge.  This is running about 7c per kwh.  Now I do have the ability to sell “recs” (green energy credits) at a rate of at leaset 3c per kwh.  This brings my production value up to 22.2 cents per kwh up to my domestic usage. The value is 10.2c for anything over my domestic usage.

We all know that there is heat to be used, and if I capture heat from the exhaust and or collant loop I can reduce my heating requirements for my house during the winter.  So if I run the engine mostly in the winter, I can accrue kwh credits when I also need the heat.  If I produce enough kwh during the winter, I may not need to run the gen during the summer.

If you use ALL the tools available this can make sense, but as someone else said, no one is going to make a living doing this.

Scott

42
Generators / Re: sell power back to utility
« on: January 14, 2008, 03:41:25 AM »
As I have said in the past, there are two components that make up MOST electric bills.

1.   The commodity charge (self explanatory)
2.   The delivery charge
Now if anyone out there is willing to work for free let me know, because I could use the free help. 

Ok no takers? 


The electric companies pay a lot for lineman to fix problems and keep the grid in good shape (overly simplistic, they do a lot more), so I argue that the delivery portion of the total electric bill is a bargain.  After all, who else is going to keep the trees trimmed and fix broken lines?

The commodity charge is usually a pass through charge for the utility, since regulations in some states preclude the delivery company from also being a generator. 

If you have the ability (and know how) to net meter, by all means do so.  The utility/and or state, often subsidizes your pet project (solar, wind, biomass, etc,) and they are compelled BY LAW to be a buyer of your output at the same rate they buy from “real producers” (multi mw)

Make no mistake, this (net metering) is a pretty damn good deal..

Scott

43
Generators / Re: sell power back to utility
« on: January 09, 2008, 03:45:13 PM »
I have the inverter, but the comm card arrived broken.  I am waiting for a replacement card so I can reprogram the inverter.

Scott

44
Generators / Re: sell power back to utility
« on: December 21, 2007, 08:52:52 PM »
Ronmar
The mechanics of net metering are simple, as you said it can be done with an induction motor run above name plate speed. 
That has never been the issue in my mind.  In order to net meter, the utility has to approve the install.  Some may approve the use of an induction motor and maybe a magentic starter.  Most utilities will not.  Thus the discussion of using UL approved grid interface devices. 

Scott

45
Generators / Re: sell power back to utility
« on: December 21, 2007, 01:50:51 PM »
instead of buying an inverter you could connect the genset directly to the grid and use some approved control device to disconnect.

Unfortunately this is not a viable solution.  For the small size generator a home owner would use, such a device is not available.

I have an inverter and interface box scheduled for delivered today with modifications that should allow easy use with the output from the standard ST head.  After testing I will post results and details.

Scott

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